Injured/Retired

Black_Ninja

I just thought it might be a good to have a thread for all horses that have been injured/retired or both.

Busy day today regarding Ballydoyle with the following:

Minding

Aidan O'Brien admitted on Sunday the future of seven-time Group 1 winner Minding is uncertain while confirming Group 2 winner Somehow has had to be put down.


Minding has not run since landing the Group 2 Mooresbridge Stakes at Naas on her reappearance in May and, speaking at the Curragh, O'Brien said: "We were planning to start Minding back driving tomorrow but our vet John Halley re-xrayed her and said she wasn't ready and that we should leave her alone for another month.
"So it's possible we might run out of time with her. We'll just have to wait and see."

Somehow

Somehow, winner of the Group 2 Dahlia Stakes at Newmarket in May and also successful at Group 2 and Listed level, has been put down after suffering an inoperable fracture of a hind tibia while working on the Ballydoyle gallops.
On what proved her final start, the daughter of Fastnet Rock and Alexandrova finished second to Decorated Knight in the Group 1 Tattersalls Gold Cup at the Curragh in May.

Wings of Eagles

However, the fairytale has now run its course, with O'Brien confirming that Wings Of Eagles has suffered a fracture to his near-fore sesamoid joint.
O'Brien said: "It's shocking news. Wings Of Eagles has suffered a bad fracture to his near-fore sesamoid and has been retired. He will have a pin inserted in his leg but, unfortunately, his racing career is over.

Lt Dan

Add a few prominent NH horses who failed to come out this season, and some of them have a common trait. Northern Dancer. In breading is going to cause a huge crisis in flat racing (maybe not so bad, Godolpin might be laughing, a little, they at least have money) and especially NH . We can soon expect a few Frankel progeny jumping hurdles

Minding does not spring to mind, she had a crazy 3 year old campaign, so much racing

PM me nudes

Minding officially retired.

Francie Barrett

Hawkeyethenoo retired, won't be missed by me, I forgot to back it when it won last year :pac:

https://www.racingpost.com/news/news/goldie-pays-tribute-to-stewards-cup-ace-hawkeyethenoo/294275

Permian suffers fatal injury in Arlington

https://sportinglife.com/racing/news/permian-suffers-fatal-injury/96246

Lt Dan

TheTorment wrote: »

Permian suffers fatal injury in Arlington

https://sportinglife.com/racing/news/permian-suffers-fatal-injury/96246

Horrible, watched the race.

This kind of injury can happen to any horse in any race, but, frankly , I wouldn't ask Mark Johnston to train my donkey. This poor horses had been flogged within an inch of his life, he had no business being over there after such a busy season so far, that Oscar Performance ain't a mug, and Permian is just not good enough to be in that class of a race

Johner

That's very sad news.

The White Wolf

Permian seemed to be a classier type of horse than what Johnston is used to so I'm sure he wouldn't have put the horse at risk had he any reason to worry.

Though I must admit I felt he was highly tried this season before last night.

PM me nudes

It's not like Johnston was putting him in races he should never have been in

Dual group 2 winner and beaten a shd in a group 1

Lt Dan

The White Wolf wrote: »

Permian seemed to be a classier type of horse than what Johnston is used to so I'm sure he wouldn't have put the horse at risk had he any reason to worry.

Though I must admit I felt he was highly tried this season before last night.

Classy type of horses do not campaign in the way that that clown has done so with his horse. He already won at York, why not try, if he was inclined, to run at the York International? What the hell does Johnston know about American racing and the style?

The White Wolf

Lt Dan wrote: »

Classy type of horses do not campaign in the way that that clown has done so with his horse. He already won at York, why not try, if he was inclined, to run at the York International? What the hell does Johnston know about American racing and the style?

Agreed that classy horses aren't run like that.

It is what it is and the operation they run is hardly the one of a mug. I don't know who made the decision to go globe trotting to France and the US as it's not something Johnston typically does (Oriental Fox is the only other one that springs to mind recently), but Johnston's aggressiveness in the way he runs his horses is how he made his name.

We don't even know if that is what caused the tragedy here.

nuckeythompson

Generally down to the owners insistence

NaiveMelodies

Christ above.Could have happened on the gallops. Some amount of clownish fans in this game. Lt Dan I always thought you had a clue?

The White Wolf

I can't post links as I'm a newb but Johnston has issued a strongly worded statement. Couldn't disagree with anything he said and as I said in my first post, no way would he run the horse had he reason to be cautious over.

I think Mark Johnston knows a damn sight more about horses, training them, plotting their targets and their well being than many of the posters here.

A tragic incident which could (as pointed out above) have happened on the gallops.

BumperD

https://www.racingpost.com/news/news/johnston-pays-tribute-to-permian-and-hits-out-at-social-media-critics/296766



Mark Johnston has paid a heartfelt tribute to Permian following the death of his stable star in Chicago on Saturday night and the trainer also hit back in strong terms at critics who trolled him and his son Charlie afterwards.

Johnston attracted criticism on social media not just for having "over-raced" Permian, who was having his eighth race of the year when he broke his left foreleg following a disappointing run in the Secretariat Stakes, but also for the "30 seconds" his son said he had with Permian before he was put to sleep – the implication being that it was callous to have spent so little time with him, rather than merciful to have made the decision so quickly.

Reflecting on events, having watched the race at home and walked away from the television without having any idea something was amiss, Johnston said: "Social media was fantastic for seeing all of the condolences coming in but there were also bastards blaming us for giving him one run too many.

"He wasn't even the horse who'd had the most runs in in the race, and yet people latch on to him as if he'd had a huge number of runs. Aidan O'Brien's horse who finished second [Taj Mahal] had more runs than Permian, as Aidan's commonly do, because he, like me, believes in racing them."

Well done boy: Mark Johnston glances admiringly at his King Edward winner Permian
Well done boy: Mark Johnston glances admiringly at his King Edward winner Permian
Edward Whitaker (racingpost.com/photos)
He added: "There was some terrible stuff on social media, people saying we had sent Permian with inexperienced staff. Charlie is 26 years old and he's a qualified vet. He was on the racecourse coping with his first ever death when in charge.

"He was quoted saying he had 30 seconds with the horse and people were saying he should have had more, but what he was saying was that he was given the decision as to whether the horse should be put down on the track or off it, and that it wasn't even a grey area.

"The leg was shattered, so the 30 seconds was the time between him getting there and the horse being put down. That was a mercy for Permian, and a great decision.

"I started typing a response, but I realised what a mistake it would be."

Johnston keeps copious records on the health and work schedule of all of his horses and revealed some interesting data on Permian.

He said: "He had ten fast pieces of work this year – eight of them races and two of them gallops. Since March 27 he never went faster than a canter at home. That's our method and I don't believe we are hard on horses at all.

"Permian was quite exceptional in that he never missed a day through illness since he started cantering. He'd been an exceptionally sound horse – one of the last horses you'd ever have a worry about. When he went out of the picture it never entered my head he'd break his leg, because he'd never had a question over him."

Looking back over the colt's highlights, Johnston found it hard to choose between the wins in the Dante and the King Edward VII Stakes, but plumped for the latter.

He reasoned: "Coming back to win at Royal Ascot after going down in the Derby was special, and the form worked out so well. I think the reason he had such a high profile is because he's come through the ranks. It's so unusual for a horse to start in a handicap at Bath, albeit a fantastic handicap, and then run in the Derby and win at Royal Ascot.


"He was out there for everyone to see. We didn't hide him away and run him once every three months. That's what made him special in such a short space of time, and we really imagined he'd be racing on again as a four year-old, and maybe even five.

"We thought, 'This is a horse for racing, this is a horse that everyone is going to get a great deal of pleasure out of'. It's just numbing. You don't know what to feel."

diomed

14 runs in two years is nothing.
In the USA Hiblaze (b. 1935) had 406 starts in 14 years (average 29 runs a year).
Even in the 21st century 20 starts in one year is common.

tryfix

TheTorment wrote: »

I think Mark Johnston knows a damn sight more about horses, training them, plotting their targets and their well being than many of the posters here.

A tragic incident which could (as pointed out above) have happened on the gallops.

True, also it had been 4 weeks and a day since he had run last.

The biggest mistake made in sending him to Arlington was in imagining that a rpr 114 horse like him could give 7lb away to his own age group in a GP1 race ( and how the hell is a GP1 race like that allowed to be a handicap? ) which was asking the horse to win a second tier GP1 race effectively off a 107 rpr. Crazy stuff when you think about it, but the notion that his 2nd in the moderate French GP1 was close to top form was burned into their game plan.

diomed

tryfix wrote: »

and how the hell is a GP1 race like that allowed to be a handicap?

Looking at my old copy of Thoroughbred Times Racing Almanac* I doubt it is a handicap as we know it.
The weight gaps between runners are typically 5 lbs or 7 lbs.
These are probably penalties for Group/Grade race wins.
Many Graded races in the USA are handicaps, even Grade 1 races.

* 2008 edition bought for $5, although the shipping was $47.20. I bought two other books with it.
* it might be a discontinued publication, but worth buying a cheap copy

tryfix

diomed wrote: »

Looking at my old copy of Thoroughbred Times Racing Almanac* I doubt it is a handicap as we know it.
The weight gaps between runners are typically 5 lbs or 7 lbs.
These are probably penalties for Group/Grade race wins.
Many Graded races in the USA are handicaps, even Grade 1 races.

* 2008 edition bought for $5, although the shipping was $47.20. I bought two other books with it.
* it might be a discontinued publication, but worth buying a cheap copy

Thanks Diomed for that, the Melbourne Cup is one race that confers GP1 status on horses that have been weighted by a handicap system.

7lbs between 3yo colts is a simply massive drain on any horse, it's 4 Lengths in a 10f race and makes a farce out of the term Grade 1.

diomed

Although 7lbs might seem a lot extra to carry (1) the flat track, (2) firm ground, (3) sharp bends would make it a bit less of a stamina test.
(Arlington Park is a 1 mile turf track inside the dirt track)
I keep in my head the Nick Mordin research that said below about 8st 5lbs a horse will not speed up.
Putting a few extra pounds on them will not slow them greatly either.

A good bet imo is often a horse that has to carry more weight this time. His odds go out as everyone does the same calculation.

Lt Dan

NaiveMelodies wrote: »

Christ above.Could have happened on the gallops. Some amount of clownish fans in this game. Lt Dan I always thought you had a clue?

First, before my attack on the trainer in my last post, I acknowledged that such an accident could have happened in any race, to any horse , and with any top trainer (Dermot Weld is famous for being patient with his horses)

My criticism was for running the horse in the US, due to the style of racing , which in Fairness to Arlington, is pretty much the closest that the US has to a track like one in Europe.

He has ran 7 times since April of this year ,before he went out to the US. He ran about 5 times at two.

His own Stallion never saw his 3 year old career. Another Teofilo, Trading Leather ended his life in a similar fashion (again, owned by the family family group) Teofilo's daughter, Pleasach missed most of her 4 year old season and ran a stormer in France but never seen again.

Something was bound to have happen to him eventually. That ground was described as firm on Saturday despite the rain.

Lt Dan

TheTorment wrote: »

I think Mark Johnston knows a damn sight more about horses, training them, plotting their targets and their well being than many of the posters here.

A tragic incident which could (as pointed out above) have happened on the gallops.

Yeah, the owners of Es Que Love taught that alright, he managed to win a Group 2 when they left Johnson and his flogging him every two weeks (even the odd consecutive week) with big weights in handicaps

There is a reason why you don't see too many Group 1 contenders in his yard every year

Johnston even tried to justify himself by referring to Aidan O'Brien. Problem is, Mark is no where near the horse man that O'Brien is

Lt Dan

diomed wrote: »

14 runs in two years is nothing.
In the USA Hiblaze (b. 1935) had 406 starts in 14 years (average 29 runs a year).
Even in the 21st century 20 starts in one year is common.

Genuine question, Sennockian Star might be one close to it, lol. Highland Reel and Found are not too far behind

How many horses have ran in more than 8-10 races in one season at stakes level in Britain and Ireland , in the last 4-5 years?

Francie Barrett

diomed wrote: »

14 runs in two years is nothing.
In the USA Hiblaze (b. 1935) had 406 starts in 14 years (average 29 runs a year).
Even in the 21st century 20 starts in one year is common.

That's not the same thing at all.

There are plenty of horses that have racked up 200 runs in their careers in the modern age, mostly plodding around in bottom in the barrel class 7 or claiming races. Permian on the other hand is Johnston's stable star, a horse of the calibre that he is only going to get a limited number of in his career. Maybe it wasn't Johnston's choice to run the horse, but for me it was clearly a mistake to run that horse.

tryfix

Francie Barrett wrote: »

That's not the same thing at all.

There are plenty of horses that have racked up 200 runs in their careers in the modern age, mostly plodding around in bottom in the barrel class 7 or claiming races. Permian on the other hand is Johnston's stable star, a horse of the calibre that he is only going to get a limited number of in his career. Maybe it wasn't Johnston's choice to run the horse, but for me it was clearly a mistake to run that horse.

Genuine questions...

Do you think that his 4 week break since his last run wasn't enough of a break for a horse who has thrived on racing? Should it be expected that a horse who'd had kept improving in his 7 runs this season would quite possibily break down in a race after a month of rest?

They have been upfront about wanting to get him a Group 1 win in lesser company to cement his stallion credentials. I don't know why they didn't baulk at giving 7lb ( 4 lengths ) away to the likes of Taj Mahal who'd finished closer than 4 lengths to better horses than Permian this season.

diomed

There are plenty of top class horses who have run many times.

All-Time Leading Earners USA by Deflated Dollars
list in descending order of money won
(book used published in 2008)

John Henry (b.1975) 83 starts in 8 years
Cigar (b.1990) 33 starts in 4 years
Skip Away (b.1993) 38 starts in 4 years
Kelso (b.1957) 63 starts in 8 years
Alysheba (b.1984) 26 starts in 3 years
Round Table (b.1954) 66 starts in 4 years
Fantastic Light (b.1996) 25 starts in 4 years
Silver Charm (b.1994) 24 starts in 4 years
Pleasantly Perfect (b. 1998) 18 starts in 4 years
Smarty Jones (b.2001) 9 starts in 2 years
Nashua (b.1952) 30 starts in 3 years
Captain Steve (b.1997) 25 starts in 3 years
Citation (b.1945) 45 starts in 4 years
Best Pal (b.1988) 47 starts in 7 years
Stymie (b.1941) 131 starts in 7 years
Tiznow (b.1997) 15 starts in 2 years
Buckpasser (b.1963) 31 starts in 3 years
Sunday Silence (b.1988) 14 starts in 3 years
Singspiel (b.1992) 20 starts in 4 years
Easy Goer (b.1986) 20 starts in 3 years
Spend A Buck (b.1982) 15 starts in 2 years
Taiki Blizzard (b.1991) 23 starts in 4 years
Carry Back (b.1958) 62 starts in 4 years
Creme Fraiche (b.1982) 64 starts in 6 years
Armed (b.1941) 81 starts in 7 years
Ouija Board (b.2001) 22 starts in 4 years
Spectacular Bid (b.1976) 30 starts in 3 years


The horse I mentioned above, Hiblaze (b. 1935), was not a duffer running for the exercise.
His record was: Years raced 14; Starts 406; Wins 79; 2nd 73; 3rd 52; Earnings $32,647.
You might say $80 a race was nothing, but that was in the depths of the great depression.

Other horses ran a few races also:
Galley Sweep 399 (1st 19, 2nd 34, 3rd 46)
Shot One 360 (1st 65, 2nd 65, 3rd 68)
Bankrupt 348 (1st 86, 2nd 52, 3rd 47)
Onus 344 (1st 53, 2nd 58, 3rd 63)
Worthowning 339 (1st 63, 2nd 62, 3rd 64)
Agreed 338 (1st 39, 2nd 50, 3rd 49)

The book lists 36 horses who ran 300+ races. A few of those won over $100k.
The problem is we do not have good statistics in Ireland & Great Britain.

Fwiw the "losingest" horse of all time in the USA was Dona Chepa, 116 races with no win.
"Winningest" horse of all-time: Kingston (b. 1884) 138 starts, 89 wins, $140,195 earnings

Horses win a few times and are rushed off to stud to preserve a false reputation.
The "Iron Horse", Giant's Causeway ran only 13 times.

Almanzor retired today.

http://www.irishracing.com/news?headline=Almanzor-retired&prid=184817

krustydoyle

Neon Wolf put down after a freak accident over the weekend
Tendon Injury

https://www.racingpost.com/news/news/fry-star-neon-wolf-put-down-after-tendon-injury/297722

longshotvalue

krustydoyle wrote: »

Neon Wolf put down after a freak accident over the weekend
Tendon Injury

https://www.racingpost.com/news/news/fry-star-neon-wolf-put-down-after-tendon-injury/297722

Ahh for F** sake. Was looking forward to seeing the madness.. Huge pity.

jimjamcos

Neon Wolf is a sickener. Huge talent . Horrible for Fry.

tryfix

TheTorment wrote: »

Almanzor retired today.

http://www.irishracing.com/news?headline=Almanzor-retired&prid=184817

They must be kicking themselves at not retiring him last year, although they are only losing one year and the horse's reputation isn't too badly damaged.

Imagine the pile of money that The Grey Gatsby would have amassed in stud fees by now if they'd retired him after he beat Australia.

krustydoyle

Flemenshill has passed on.. Rather expensive p2p purchase at 480'000 Tizzard announced at his open day yesterday

Edit: suffered a heart attack after a light piece of work

Gringo180

Just touching on Mark Johnston and over racing his horses. Anytime I seem to watch a 1m 2f-1m 4f handicap race Sennockian Star always seems to be running in them :pac:

tryfix

Gringo180 wrote: »

Just touching on Mark Johnston and over racing his horses. Anytime I seem to watch a 1m 2f-1m 4f handicap race Sennockian Star always seems to be running in them :pac:

13143155306554339260

Just the 20 runs so far this year :eek:

Fayonagh put down after gallops accident. Tough on owners. Could have been special.

http://www.irishracing.com/news?headline=Fayonagh-sustains-fatal-gallops-injury&prid=186558

NaiveMelodies

TheTorment wrote: »

Fayonagh put down after gallops accident. Tough on owners. Could have been special.

http://www.irishracing.com/news?headline=Fayonagh-sustains-fatal-gallops-injury&prid=186558

Fcuk that's awful news. The bumper performance was special.

Feel for Elliott too losing her and Mega Fortune.

famagusta

Unbelievable bad luck for Gordon again today, lucky pass slips after line, fatally injured, after winning!!

madmoose

Not sure if true but read a random tweet saying soon to be bad news regarding Douvan, let’s just see eh.

Copper_pipe

https://twitter.com/RacingPost/status/925032699798147073

Francie Barrett

Sire De Grugy to have a much deserved retirement.

Starchitect a fatality today at Cheltenham.

Some good news though, Three Swallowsnick who I had thought would never see a race course again after a very serious injury won a P2P at Borris House today. This is one to keep tabs on, I think.

jimjamcos

Douvan misses rest of season. RP just tweeted.

RivetingRoger

jimjamcos wrote: »

Douvan misses rest of season. RP just tweeted.

Min v altior in cc now

ANDREWMUFC

Fu*k Mullins the crook.

It’s been known for a few months now that Douvan is injured and will be retired but he didn’t tell us so people would back it Ante-Post and make bookies millions

ANDREWMUFC

https://twitter.com/nhnags/status/925014598507532288

He was right all along lol

longshotvalue

ANDREWMUFC wrote: »

Fu*k Mullins the crook.

It’s been known for a few months now that Douvan is injured and will be retired but he didn’t tell us so people would back it Ante-Post and make bookies millions

This is a scandalous comment . Owner has been unlucky when you think how good it looked with faugheen, vautor, douvan 2 years ago

BumperD

ANDREWMUFC wrote: »

Fu*k Mullins the crook.

It’s been known for a few months now that Douvan is injured and will be retired but he didn’t tell us so people would back it Ante-Post and make bookies millions

Hahahaha that is idiotic

ANDREWMUFC

It’s not idiotic

ruby was saying yesterday how the horse is in top condition and is all systems go for leopardstown

BumperD

you Really think people were putting millions on douvan ante post? Seriously?

diomed

ANDREWMUFC wrote: »

Fu*k Mullins the crook.

It’s been known for a few months now that Douvan is injured and will be retired but he didn’t tell us so people would back it Ante-Post and make bookies millions

Trolling
A troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

You post does not comply with the Horse Racing Forum Charter.

Why would a well-known horse trainer want people to back a horse antepost so that a bookmaker would make millions?
A horse trainer is employed by his owners, and answers to them.
The antepost 2018 Cheltenham Gold Cup market on Betfair at the moment is Eur 180,840 (all the horses entered) which I think counts both the bet and the lay.
My guess is the Gold Cup is the biggest antepost betting race, and the Betfair market is bigger than any bookmaker book on the race, and is not "millions" on one horse.

I have laboured the point a little, to allow you and others the opportunity to learn, and mend your posting style.

Have a read of the Charter, and follow it when posting.

x PyRo

ANDREWMUFC wrote: »

Fu*k Mullins the crook.

It’s been known for a few months now that Douvan is injured and will be retired but he didn’t tell us so people would back it Ante-Post and make bookies millions