Using a Leaf as a power supply during a power cut

Calahonda52

Work from home, planned power cut by ESB on Monday, all day.
Any thoughts on extracting some juice from the EV for the laptop and cell phone.
Will use cell phone for www
Have a 12v to 110v invertor which will do so no big loads envisaged

is the Leaf battery charged by an alternator when driving or just from the battery when switched on in full drive mode?
Thanks as always

aliveandkicking

I wouldn't bother, I'd just have a generator on standby.

It can be done though, Nissan in Japan have been doing this officially since the earthquake .

Calahonda52

Deleted User wrote: »

I wouldn't bother, I'd just have a generator on standby.

It can be done though, Nissan in Japan have been doing this officially since the earthquake .

Thanks, went to Halford's in Swords and upgraded the generator: put it in back of leaf

I don't think that's large enough for the job !

gctest50

This'd be nice :

http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/TECHNOLOGY/OVERVIEW/vehicle_to_home.html

Calahonda52

it worked out well.
I had an existing 12V car battery which I used to connect the Inverter to inside the house and then ran some cables out the window to the Leaf, and turned on the leaf every two hours for about 15 minutes, got from 0900 t0 1700 out of it, connected up the router as well for access to business server, beats going into the office! took about 3 kms for range.

I could charge up for free at work and use the electricity to power the house while I'm home !

gctest50

like dis :

gctest50

The Power Box is a simple inverter. It changes battery direct current to AC to be used in standard appliances. It’s similar to stand-alone inverters, and fairly inexpensive. It’s about the size of two shoeboxes, and it weighs about 25 pounds. You can put it in the trunk of your car to make AC energy readily available. The only twist is that there’s electronic communication in the unit that does a “CHAdeMO handshake” with the car.

We’ve taken the idea of the Power Box one step further. Nichicon, a capacitor manufacturer, builds something else for our company, a device called the EV Power Station. It’s about the size of a mini refrigerator. With the Power Station, you can supply power to the home, rather than just plugging in one appliance at a time. The Power Station hooks right up to your home’s electrical system. There’s a transfer switch to transfer home power from utility power and connect it to the Power Station. Essentially, it hooks up and functions exactly like a backup generator, with all the same protections against “backfed” power.

gctest50

Deleted User wrote: »

I could charge up for free at work and use the electricity to power the house while I'm home !

Get paid in Delaware to level out the load :


http://www.dmv.org/de-delaware/green-driver-state-incentives.php#Delaware-Vehicle-to-Grid-Energy-Credit-for-Electric-Vehicles-

Delaware Vehicle-to-Grid Energy Credit for Electric Vehicles (EVs)

If you have at least one grid-integrated electric vehicle (EV), you might be eligible to receive kilowatt-hour energy credits as a retail electricity customer. Delaware defines a grid-integrated electric vehicle as a motor vehicle that:

Is battery powered.
Allows for two-way power flow (between the vehicle and the electric grid).
Has communications hardware and software for externally controlling battery charging and discharging,

You'll receive the vehicle-to-grid credit for whatever energy your EV battery discharges to the grid at the same rate that you pay to charge your battery. For more on this, consult the Delaware Code, Title 26, Chapter 10, Section 1014g.

That's brilliant, charge up for free at work and get paid by the ESB for dumping it into the grid

They have 6 charge points on campus now for total of 12 charging outlets.

Even if all were charging all day and night at 7 Kw that would = 84 Kw continuous load and wouldn't even be noticed on the electric bill haha.

unkel

I've mentioned this a few times before. It sure looks like the future, where we need a lot of storage on the grid, and the simplest solution is to use the huge battery capacity of EVs.

And storage heaters, they store as much or more than current gen electrics, but unfortunately can't return to the grid.

grogi

unkel wrote: »

I've mentioned this a few times before. It sure looks like the future, where we need a lot of storage on the grid, and the simplest solution is to use the huge battery capacity of EVs.

Absolutely. But just simple slowing down of every charging EV should suffice to balance the grid.

gctest50

grogi wrote: »

Absolutely. But just simple slowing down of every charging EV should suffice to balance the grid.

It's as easy and way more useful to do "tidal" charging of EVs

reboot

aliveandkicking wrote: »

Nun
Is the lady on the video suggesting that we draw 80 amps from the 12 v battery, as the inverter she specifies is 1 kw?

ELM327

reboot wrote: »

Nun
Is the lady on the video suggesting that we draw 80 amps from the 12 v battery, as the inverter she specifies is 1 kw?

Certainly hope not, I doubt highly that the leaf's 12v battery is capable of 80amps.
I've had batteries in large american heavy duty trucks that only barely exceed 120a

grogi

ELM327 wrote: »

Certainly hope not, I doubt highly that the leaf's 12v battery is capable of 80amps.
I've had batteries in large american heavy duty trucks that only barely exceed 120a

It is not the 12V battery, but the efficiency of high-to-low voltage converter you would need to worry. In an EV there will be very few power consumers on the 12V line, that converter does not need to be powerful at all.

If you could tap directly into the traction battery, that would be something...

reboot

Surely she is suggesting running her fridge etc from a 1kw inverter, fed from the 12v battery, assuming a possible current drain of up to 80 amps?
The original TV Leaf ad had a lady drive into her garage, throw a switch, and the house lights appeared to be running from the EV. Have read that China has big plans in this direction. Traction battery would be mighty and dangerous, but even a 5 v dc supply would charge the devices in the house, phones, tabs , USB. Some Japanese homes have only a 9 v DC solar roof for this idea.

zilog_jones

The Prius PHV is available in Japan with an option that includes an integrated 1500W 100V AC inverter, which adds a few mains sockets inside the car and also a mains output from the Type 1 socket externally via an adaptor (see attachment).

This avoids the limitations of the car's 12V system, but 100V AC isn't particularly useful to us over here. Is the Leaf available with something similar in Japan? I believe there is something like this for the Outlander too. Disaster preparedness is obviously a much bigger deal over there - I guess it makes more sense with the PHEVs as you can run them in hybrid mode as a generator for much longer than a BEV, and it may be easier to get petrol than a functional EV charging point in a disaster situation.

reboot

Are you saying the inverter runs off the 400 v traction battery? Wouldn't be a big deal to transform ,100v to 230, at about half the current of course. Thanks

Water John

BTW, has any one come across, risk whilst charging an EV, with the prospect of lightening?
Just heard a rumble. Will def plug out before going to bed. Will be charged fully any way.
Don't want to be a first.

There's no risk to an EV in lightning at worst the EVSE.

I wouldn't bother plugging anything out especially if you're in an estate, I wouldn't bother any way with the lightning we normally get most likely only the usual rumble and flash and gone, no thunderstorm around the Island only out the South coast heading towards the U.K , chances of us getting a real storm these days are slim at best.

zilog_jones

reboot wrote: »

Are you saying the inverter runs off the 400 v traction battery? Wouldn't be a big deal to transform ,100v to 230, at about half the current of course. Thanks

Yes, it's getting power directly from the traction battery.

It seems the inverters are made by Toyota Industries (I guess some subsidiary of Toyota Motor?), and they actually make the inverter for the Outlander PHEV and also one for the Nissan e-NV200:

https://www.toyota-industries.com/products/automobile/electronics/inverter/

The other DC-AC inverters listed are all using 12V power in ICE cars.

There's a diagram of the components involved here:


The three main components listed there (besides sockets and switch) are:

• Hybrid vehicle control computer (in dash?)
• Hybrid battery junction block assembly (centre console)
• Voltage inverter (under driver's seat)

Water John

Mad, survived the thunder storm and I'm not out at sea either. Twas fairly high, but ESB was off. I think nowadays, they turn it off during the worst of a lightening storm. Live in the country BTW.

By Irish standards you're probably right but I was watching it on the web ( working nights ) and it was nothing. The South East of the U.K got an actual Thunderstorm.

reboot

zilog_jones wrote: »

reboot wrote: »

Are you saying the inverter runs off the 400 v traction battery? Wouldn't be a big deal to transform ,100v to 230, at about half the current of course. Thanks

Yes, it's getting power directly from the traction battery.

It seems the inverters are made by Toyota Industries (I guess some subsidiary of Toyota Motor?), and they actually make the inverter for the Outlander PHEV and also one for the Nissan e-NV200:

https://www.toyota-industries.com/products/automobile/electronics/inverter/

The other DC-AC inverters listed are all using 12V power in ICE cars.

There's a diagram of the components involved here:


The three main components listed there (besides sockets and switch) are:

• Hybrid vehicle control computer (in dash?)
• Hybrid battery junction block assembly (centre console)
• Voltage inverter (under driver's seat)

Thanks for that, the 1500w, would be the way to go, and worth looking at in winter months in a rural area such as this. Perhaps the Renault/ Nissan may take note, or we may have to do it ourselves.

When I get the new EV hopefully 40+ Kwh the work charge will do 100% of my commute and was thinking about using it for to run an electric oil radiator when I'm off shift when I don't want to heat the whole house. I'll use one of the Chimney balloons to block up the chimney because it's frightening the amount of heat that's lost out the Chimney.

I was considering one or two storage heaters to heat up on the night rate leccy but the cost of that would probable be 2500 at least, nearly 1 K per heater + installation, then on top of that if I charge at 7 Kw it would leave very little capacity in the house on standard single phase.

Even when off shift I can charge up on night rate and use the car during the day to run the heater.

Couple of issues with that, running an extension lead and pure sine-wave inverters are expensive especially one that is 2500 Watts and that's a lot of current. 2500/12 = 208 amps !!!

Other alternative, and a lot safer is to install 7 Kw EVSE and an outdoor commercial socket capable of sustaining 13 amps and feed direct to the house, the issue here is that it's not illegal but would be frowned upon by the ESB.

The other issue is that the inverter in the Leaf would not sustain 208 amps only 135 according to here for the 2012 anyway http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=8252

So 1.7 Kw but it would not be wise to run the leaf at that limit constantly. But 1 Kw might be safe and you could run the heater inside the house at 1 Kw minimum setting which would take longer to heat but after it's hot will tick over nicely or I could heat it off the mains first. The heater would not be running continuously anyway and would cycle on and off and this is why I really like electric heating is due to the absolute control you never have over oil, gas etc.

Of course, the ideal solution is to connect direct to the traction battery, so Nissan should really release this solution outside of Japan but probably they did not due to fears about battery life and increased cycling which would not be such an issue on much larger batteries.

So remember the 1.7 Kw limit on the Leaf inverter and don;t run near that limit.

Bigus

Deleted User wrote: »

When I get the new EV hopefully 40+ Kwh the work charge will do 100% of my commute and was thinking about using it for to run an electric oil radiator when I'm off shift when I don't want to heat the whole house. I'll use one of the Chimney balloons to block up the chimney because it's frightening the amount of heat that's lost out the Chimney.

I was considering one or two storage heaters to heat up on the night rate leccy but the cost of that would probable be 2500 at least, nearly 1 K per heater + installation, then on top of that if I charge at 7 Kw it would leave very little capacity in the house on standard single phase.

Even when off shift I can charge up on night rate and use the car during the day to run the heater.

Couple of issues with that, running an extension lead and pure sine-wave inverters are expensive especially one that is 2500 Watts and that's a lot of current. 2500/12 = 208 amps !!!

Other alternative, and a lot safer is to install 7 Kw EVSE and an outdoor commercial socket capable of sustaining 13 amps and feed direct to the house, the issue here is that it's not illegal but would be frowned upon by the ESB.

The other issue is that the inverter in the Leaf would not sustain 208 amps only 135 according to here for the 2012 anyway http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=8252

So 1.7 Kw but it would not be wise to run the leaf at that limit constantly. But 1 Kw might be safe and you could run the heater inside the house at 1 Kw minimum setting which would take longer to heat but after it's hot will tick over nicely or I could heat it off the mains first. The heater would not be running continuously anyway and would cycle on and off and this is why I really like electric heating is due to the absolute control you never have over oil, gas etc.

Of course, the ideal solution is to connect direct to the traction battery, so Nissan should really release this solution outside of Japan but probably they did not due to fears about battery life and increased cycling which would not be such an issue on much larger batteries.

So remember the 1.7 Kw limit on the Leaf inverter and don;t run near that limit.

You're not thinking this one through at all,

to use your free coffee analogy , it's a bit like taking home free coffee and biscuits for your whole family , the neighbours and the rest of the village ,

the company would soon put a stop to free car charging, and rightly so.

unkel

Nah they wouldn't. They wouldn't care at all if Mad Lad filled his new 40kWh car from zero to 100% at work everyday at full day rates. It would still only cost them €6 per day or so. That's peanuts compared to what Mad Lad himself costs them

I have a cheap 200W or 300W inverter lying around somewhere (with crocodile clips iirc). Must dig it up and let Ioniq give me some free juice for the house

They'll have no idea, I won't tell them :-) with a leccy bill of a few million a month and growing I doubt it would be spotted.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=8252

WARNING: NEVER connect anything directly to the negative post of the Leaf's 12v aux battery! This is a current sensor and doing so will disrupt the charging system! (Connect all accessories to the body ground, or, if high-current, the black wire screwed to the top of the DC-DC JB. (Behind the inverter)

unkel

It's best practice to connect positive to the positive post and negative to the chassis ground (and not to the negative post) anyway. Do you not do that when jump starting a car e.g.?

I think it is to do with a chance of fire because it is more likely that a spark would happen when you connect to the negative post and that hydrogen escaping from a bad battery + spark = fire

EV aux batteries are usually very well sealed so I can only see this as even less of an issue than with ICE cars

cros13

Whatever you do don't try this on an i3.... the i3's 12V system and DC-DC maxes out at 150W.

unkel

Leaf was very impressive with sustained 1kW

Any idea what the DC-DC in Ioniq maxes out at, cros13?

cros13

Not a clue on the Ioniq...

I definitely take care with the i3 as I often put a lot of 12V loads on my car between charging up portable power packs (I have one that's over 1000Wh... runs my equipment for up to a week of camping/hiking) and other high wattage stuff.

Yeah I always jump start using the chassis negative.

creedp

Bigus wrote: »

You're not thinking this one through at all,

to use your free coffee analogy , it's a bit like taking home free coffee and biscuits for your whole family , the neighbours and the rest of the village ,

the company would soon put a stop to free car charging, and rightly so.

At least we know that the oft touted reason why EVs are so environmentally friendly because they are charged at night using renewable energy or spare capacity which would otherwise be lost is a bit of hot air.

creedp

unkel wrote: »

Nah they wouldn't. They wouldn't care at all if Mad Lad filled his new 40kWh car from zero to 100% at work everyday at full day rates. It would still only cost them €6 per day or so. That's peanuts compared to what Mad Lad himself costs them

I have a cheap 200W or 300W inverter lying around somewhere (with crocodile clips iirc). Must dig it up and let Ioniq give me some free juice for the house

Is is only EV driving environmental heros who would be allowed knock off €30 a week from their employers or could we all put our hand in the petty cash box for lunch money. No point wasting energy making the auld sandwich at home when I could pilfer the employer instead. This stuff is a bit silly really.

goz83

creedp wrote: »

Is is only EV driving environmental heros who would be allowed knock off €30 a week from their employers or could we all put our hand in the petty cash box for lunch money. No point wasting energy making the auld sandwich at home when I could pilfer the employer instead. This stuff is a bit silly really.

No, it's everyone who gets free tea/coffee, biscuits, internet use, newspapers, jax roll and whatever else the company pays for that employees benefit from and pay no bik

BoatMad

goz83 wrote: »

No, it's everyone who gets free tea/coffee, biscuits, internet use, newspapers, jax roll and whatever else the company pays for that employees benefit from and pay no bik

Revenue have confirmed that BIK is due on work electricity supplied to employees using work charging

canteen costs are exempted specially in the legislation once available to all employees

Charging BIK on electrics wouldn't be worth it because employees simply wouldn't use them myself included so it would be a pointless exercise. My next ev will have the range to get me to work and back on one charge.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

Charging BIK on electrics wouldn't be worth it because employees simply wouldn't use them myself included so it would be a pointless exercise. My next ev will have the range to get me to work and back on one charge.

its not a worry , BIK will not be levied on work charging

aliveandkicking

BoatMad wrote: »

Revenue have confirmed that BIK is due on work electricity supplied to employees using work charging

canteen costs are exempted specially in the legislation once available to all employees

Logically that also means that charging your phone at work would also be liable to BIK. Not remotely enforceable.

BoatMad

aliveandkicking wrote: »

Logically that also means that charging your phone at work would also be liable to BIK. Not remotely enforceable.

the legislation , provides that ALL non cash advantages that an employee receives, excluding those specifically exempted by legislation are " technically " liable for BIK

but like in all tax collection , Revenue are realists and must balance the costs of collection and enforcement with the likely gain

with that in mind , Revenue consistently ignore small sums and hard to calculate benefits , this is only right and proper

hence the theory of tax collection and the practicals of tax collection

The real world is a great place. !!

goz83

BoatMad wrote: »

Revenue have confirmed that BIK is due on work electricity supplied to employees using work charging

canteen costs are exempted specially in the legislation once available to all employees

I'm well aware that revenue have confirmed that. I was responding directly to the post I quoted, the author of which was painting ev owners as free loaders.

creedp

goz83 wrote: »

I'm well aware that revenue have confirmed that. I was responding directly to the post I quoted, the author of which was painting ev owners as free loaders.

Not all only those you think it OK to charge up car and bring it home to heat his/her house and especially those you would actually invest in a new heating system to maximise this free loading largesse.

Revenue are the freeloaders stealing our income and robbing us on everything we purchase thieving bast1rds !!!!!

macnab

aliveandkicking wrote: »

Probably a good time to recycle this video ;-)

macnab

Probably a good day to recycle this video.

https://youtu.be/ADqk4IjzjXs