Is your Creche putting up its fees in September?

superman28

I have heard locally in my area Dublin 3, that alot of creches are putting up their fees in response to the new governments new "affordable childcare scheme" that comes in September, were parents will recieve a small payment to help cover the cost of childcare. It appears already that creche providers are jacking up their fees to take advantage of this (Links childcare creche in Dublin). for one

Id welcome something meaningful that would reduce my creche fees,, but seems that the government is happy to continue to waste tax payers money through, pointless give aways, more poorly thought out nonsense.

pwurple

No "jacking" up here, maybe it's only for Jackeens.

Honestly though, I think childcare workers and creches are poorly paid for the work they do, so I can understand how they absorb this kind of thing.

Charlie McCreevy's tax individualisation was a political farce, and IMHO the cause of this mess. The policy was put in place to incentivise (read : Force? Encourage through painful financial penalties?) dual income families and discourage single income families with a stay at home parent. This has had the effect of creating all sorts of pain we are feeling now.
-A childcare crisis as no-one can afford to mind their own children, because they need to work to fund their housing (rent or mortgage).
-A Housing price explosion and neg equity crunch as these dual income families were for approved for massive mortgages, which went belly up when the global downturn zapped their jobs.
-Homelessness as the lower single income people fall off the bottom of the ladder
-etc etc etc.

Everything the critics at the time said would come to pass with it, has now arrived.

Reversing that idiotic policy is what's needed. Followed by waiting another ten years for it to equalise. No doubt we currently "can't afford it."
Sigh.

Love2love

I think the point of this is not to reduce the existing costs but to put more money into formal childcare. Overheads in a crèche are huge with insurance and training costs. Staff are required to have FETAC accreditation in order to earn minimum wage. They could earn more working in Aldi without the need to attend college. It's also an attempt to encourage parents to use crèche facilities rather than family members who may be receiving payment into the hand.

Bacchus

Love2love wrote: »

I think the point of this is not to reduce the existing costs but to put more money into formal childcare. Overheads in a crèche are huge with insurance and training costs. Staff are required to have FETAC accreditation in order to earn minimum wage. They could earn more working in Aldi without the need to attend college. It's also an attempt to encourage parents to use crèche facilities rather than family members who may be receiving payment into the hand.

It's being pitched though as a way to help out parents with the cost of childcare. Just like the first time buyers handouts, this is another pointless giveaway that doesn't really help anyone but those at the top of the food chain. If it is a way to try and raise the wages of carers, how are they planning on tracking that? What's to say this extra income won't just be taken as more profit for the owner? Assuming money from the scheme is just absorbed by the creche, I don't see how it's supposed to encourage parents to use creches either since they will see no net difference in the cost.

As a parent facing forking out €800 per month soon for our daughter I'd love to know a breakdown of the costs... any point chasing that up with the creche? It's 3-1 so that's €2400 for 1 carer looking after ~1 year olds. I know I'd like to have the person looking after my daughter to be a bit more motivated and have more work pride than someone earning minimum wage in the retail industry.

Love2love

Bacchus wrote: »

It's being pitched though as a way to help out parents with the cost of childcare. Just like the first time buyers handouts, this is another pointless giveaway that doesn't really help anyone but those at the top of the food chain. If it is a way to try and raise the wages of carers, how are they planning on tracking that? What's to say this extra income won't just be taken as more profit for the owner? Assuming money from the scheme is just absorbed by the creche, I don't see how it's supposed to encourage parents to use creches either since they will see no net difference in the cost.

As a parent facing forking out €800 per month soon for our daughter I'd love to know a breakdown of the costs... any point chasing that up with the creche? It's 3-1 so that's €2400 for 1 carer looking after ~1 year olds. I know I'd like to have the person looking after my daughter to be a bit more motivated and have more work pride than someone earning minimum wage in the retail industry.

If your paying the lady down the road to mind them as a cash in hand deal, it might entice parents to use those registered as childminders and thus another revenue stream. Also, anyone claiming state benefits and childminding on the side.

€2400 per month for 3 children to the creche owner who has to pay utility bills, rent, insurance, training cost atop of the 1600 salary to the worker leaves very little money for profit or investment for that matter.

Millem

Love2love wrote: »

If your paying the lady down the road to mind them as a cash in hand deal, it might entice parents to use those registered as childminders and thus another revenue stream. Also, anyone claiming state benefits and childminding on the side.

€2400 per month for 3 children to the creche owner who has to pay utility bills, rent, insurance, training cost atop of the 1600 salary to the worker leaves very little money for profit or investment for that matter.

I have heard of crèches though not taking children under 1 as ratio is so small 1:3. I never used a creche myself but surely there is money to made where ratio gets bigger like in over 3 year olds?

Love2love

Millem wrote: »

I have heard of crèches though not taking children under 1 as ratio is so small 1:3. I never used a creche myself but surely there is money to made where ratio gets bigger like in over 3 year olds?

I think you are right in this regard however then you have to factor in other costs such as facilities. The equipment must be up to spec and replaced regularly. As you know, equipment especially those of a high standard are costly. Even the slightest damage warrants complete replacement due to the nature of its work. I'm sure they are making some profit however, or they wouldn't be in business but I don't think its as high as you would think. I have heard of people paying more than their mortgage each month on Childcare, it's madness!

Bacchus

Love2love wrote: »

If your paying the lady down the road to mind them as a cash in hand deal, it might entice parents to use those registered as childminders and thus another revenue stream. Also, anyone claiming state benefits and childminding on the side.

Nope, still not seeing how this is a motivation to switch from the lady down the road (henceforth known as LDTR) to a creche. The net cost to move to a creche does not change (assuming that the money from the scheme is absorbed by increased creche fees). Lets do an example with made up numbers

LDTR = €400 p/m
Creche = €800 p/m
Creche is €400 per month more

New scheme kicks in and you get about €80 p/m if you're using a creche.
LDTR is still €400 p/m
Creche puts their fee up to €880 p/m but you're getting that €80 p/m support
Creche is still €400 per month more.

What am I missing here? By the way, I'm working under your own rationale that "the point of this is not to reduce the existing costs but to put more money into formal childcare".

Now, if a creche doesn't put up their fees, then there is an incentive to switch but will that be the case? Our creche hasn't contacted us anyway about a change to our fees come October.

Love2love wrote: »

€2400 per month for 3 children to the creche owner who has to pay utility bills, rent, insurance, training cost atop of the 1600 salary to the worker leaves very little money for profit or investment for that matter.

Hence why I'd love to know the actual breakdown. How much of the pie is the carer getting? As another poster pointed out though, it moves to a 5-1 ratio at around 12-15 months.

cgc5483

We've heard nothing either. The fees have gone up the last 2 years in Sept by 5% so hoping that they don't hit us with that again as will have 2 there full-time from then.

Our creche has recently stopped taking under 12 months as well.

Love2love

Bacchus wrote: »

Nope, still not seeing how this is a motivation to switch from the lady down the road (henceforth known as LDTR) to a creche. The net cost to move to a creche does not change (assuming that the money from the scheme is absorbed by increased creche fees). Lets do an example with made up numbers

LDTR = €400 p/m
Creche = €800 p/m
Creche is €400 per month more

New scheme kicks in and you get about €80 p/m if you're using a creche.
LDTR is still €400 p/m
Creche puts their fee up to €880 p/m but you're getting that €80 p/m support
Creche is still €400 per month more.

What am I missing here? By the way, I'm working under your own rationale that "the point of this is not to reduce the existing costs but to put more money into formal childcare".

Now, if a creche doesn't put up their fees, then there is an incentive to switch but will that be the case? Our creche hasn't contacted us anyway about a change to our fees come October.



Hence why I'd love to know the actual breakdown. How much of the pie is the carer getting? As another poster pointed out though, it moves to a 5-1 ratio at around 12-15 months.

i would imagine there would be closer in amounts in fairness. €400 a week would be €20 a day. What I mean to say, Parents might ask TLDR who is a registered Childminder over TLDR who've just getting a bit of cash in hand. It might cost the parents more but this will bring the gap closer.

I remember a couple of years ago when that prime time episode came out the percentage of staff in a crèche that required to be formally trained was only 15% - no link, I remember reading it at the time. I imagine it's all now. So back then minimum wage was justified to a certain extent.

I'm not sure of the reasoning behind this new supplement, I'm summising. I know that the childcare sector is seriously underfunded though

John Mason

Lads, report, report, report,

it is part of the scheme that they are not supposed to do this

Bacchus

Love2love wrote: »

i would imagine there would be closer in amounts in fairness. €400 a week would be €20 a day. What I mean to say, Parents might ask TLDR who is a registered Childminder over TLDR who've just getting a bit of cash in hand. It might cost the parents more but this will bring the gap closer.

You're missing my point though. The net effect of this scheme (working under the assumption that it is absorbed by increases in childcare costs) is zero, zilch, nada. It therefore makes NO difference to the pocket of the parent and therefore does nothing to bridge the gap between LDTR and a registered creche or carer.

John Mason wrote: »

Lads, report, report, report,

it is part of the scheme that they are not supposed to do this

Is it really? How is that supposed to be enforced? What's to stop a creche claiming it was their intention to raise their fees by 5% or 10% anyway. I don't recall seeing any "fee freeze" announced for creches so what mechanism is there in place to actual police this?

Love2love

Love2love wrote: »

I think the point of this is not to reduce the existing costs but to put more money into formal childcare. Overheads in a cre are huge with insurance and training costs. Staff are required to have FETAC accreditation in order to earn minimum wage. They could earn more working in Aldi without the need to attend college. It's also an attempt to encourage parents to use cre facilities rather than family members who may be receiving payment into the hand.

Just out of interest, is there any examples of the insurance being paid? I keep hearing it's the insurance that pumps the price up but would love to get any concrete figure on it.

Love2love

Bacchus wrote: »

You're missing my point though. The net effect of this scheme (working under the assumption that it is absorbed by increases in childcare costs) is zero, zilch, nada. It therefore makes NO difference to the pocket of the parent and therefore does nothing to bridge the gap between LDTR and a registered creche or carer.

It never does... they use to have the €250 every 3 months paid directly to the parent as to not discriminate against stay-at-home parents. This was then turned into the "free pre-school year" which incidentally, for most people anyhow, isn't free and ends up being subsides by the crèche itself

https://www.google.ie/amp/www.thejournal.ie/childcare-ireland-2104924-May2015/?amp=1

Millem

How many hours per day does a child need to be childcare to get the €20 off per week? Or is it €80 a calander month?

John Mason

Bacchus wrote: »

Is it really? How is that supposed to be enforced? What's to stop a creche claiming it was their intention to raise their fees by 5% or 10% anyway. I don't recall seeing any "fee freeze" announced for creches so what mechanism is there in place to actual police this?

Sorry, you are correct, I am wrong. I was thinking of a different scheme

As it stands, all service need to submit their ECCE/TEC/CCSP/CCS etc. fees to the CCC for approval. So it would very easy to see if services are jacking up their costs.

Here is the official line

Will the benefits of the scheme for parents be eroded by childcare providers increasing their fees?
The scheme is intended to support parents in meeting the cost of childcare. Childcare providers set their own fees, and there is no current plan for the Government to control fees, which would be a major intrusion in the market and could, if not managed carefully and appropriately, create risks around the viability and quality of childcare provision. The Programme for Government includes a commitment to carrying out an independent review of costs. This review will be overseen by the Department and will include analysis on the potential benefits and risks of imposing price caps on childcare providers.

Finally, it is intended that all providers participating in the scheme will be required to clearly publish their fees so that parents can compare providers and can see what their co-payment would be after taking account of any State subsidy.

John Mason

Love2love wrote: »

It never does... they use to have the €250 every 3 months paid directly to the parent as to not discriminate against stay-at-home parents. This was then turned into the "free pre-school year" which incidentally, for most people anyhow, isn't free and ends up being subsides by the crèche itself

https://www.google.ie/amp/www.thejournal.ie/childcare-ireland-2104924-May2015/%3Famp%3D1

It is free and parents need to stand up and say "no, I am not paying those "optional extras".

The services are getting away with charging extra money because everyone is afraid to so no

LegacyUser

The creche in Tullyallen is conventional hiking their fees by 20%, therefore there is no benefit to us at all of the new government scheme. I agree in the end every tax payer is contributing...for what??? Creche owners to increase profit margins!!!

neris

at the moment the govt have railroaded through an unthoughtout plan (like they did before with the ECCE scheme). The way this scheme is going to work for the coming year is only going to be beneficial to those on very low incomes and not the average family with both working parents or 1 working parent on a good income. We,ve worked out in our place that a full time 1 child family will only get a saving of €80 a month from the govt scheme. Thats the govt deciding its only €80 not the creche. Shows what the govt thinks of hard pressed working families really.

mirrorwall14

I'm with a childminder who is not in my local area so I considered switching and delaying playschool for another year. However it was still coming in significantly more expensive for creche per month (~100e more even after subsidy) and on top of that my arrangement with my childminder means I don't pay when he's not there which saves a fortune. She will also take him with a temp so there is just no way it's worth it for me to switch even though I did want to move into the local area

neonsofa

neris wrote: »

at the moment the govt have railroaded through an unthoughtout plan (like they did before with the ECCE scheme). The way this scheme is going to work for the coming year is only going to be beneficial to those on very low incomes and not the average family with both working parents or 1 working parent on a good income. We,ve worked out in our place that a full time 1 child family will only get a saving of €80 a month from the govt scheme. Thats the govt deciding its only €80 not the creche. Shows what the govt thinks of hard pressed working families really.

Yeah I think I may qualify for 30 euro or something per month and the fees went up by 50 just beforehand so im down money. Thankfully it is afterschool that I need and not newborn cause that's something like 950 where my little one goes.

Wesser

Can someone please clarify.... Is it legal for creche to charge additional fees on top.of the ecce payment?

Thanks

neris

Wesser wrote: »

Can someone please clarify.... Is it legal for creche to charge additional fees on top.of the ecce payment?

Thanks

If it's anything over 3-3.5 hours yes. If your child's in creche care for example they can charge creche fee less the daily eccee capitation. The ecce payment for full time creche child would only be €62.50 a week.

Millem

Does anyone know how the under 3's subsidy works? Does the child need to go for more than 5 hours per day to get the E20 off? Or could they go say 3 days at 8.5 hours??
Thanks

John Mason

Millem wrote: »

Does anyone know how the under 3's subsidy works? Does the child need to go for more than 5 hours per day to get the E20 off? Or could they go say 3 days at 8.5 hours??
Thanks[



CCS Session Type Universal Band (CCS Band U) (Weekly Subsidy)
Full-time (i.e. 5.01 or more hours) €20
Part-time (i.e. 3.31 to 5 hours) €10
Sessional (i.e. 2.16 to 3.30 hours) €7
Half-sessional (i.e. 1 to 2.15 hours) €3.50


the days are pro-rated out

Millem

Sorry John does that mean 3 full days would get the E20 off?

John Mason

Millem wrote: »

Sorry John does that mean 3 full days would get the E20 off?

no, €20/5*3=€12

Millem

John Mason wrote: »

no, €20/5*3=€12

Oh ok! Thanks

tiredcity

Ours (outside Dublin) is increasing fees by 5euro for full time to 180/week. I don't mind because he's very happy there but there was no explanation offered which is a little frustrating. Still, overall it'll save us some money so can't complain too much.

BlazingSaddler

superman28 wrote: »

I have heard locally in my area Dublin 3, that alot of creches are putting up their fees in response to the new governments new "affordable childcare scheme" that comes in September, were parents will recieve a small payment to help cover the cost of childcare. It appears already that creche providers are jacking up their fees to take advantage of this (Links childcare creche in Dublin). for one

Id welcome something meaningful that would reduce my creche fees,, but seems that the government is happy to continue to waste tax payers money through, pointless give aways, more poorly thought out nonsense.

Yes, Magic Years in Dublin 15 putting prices up by 8%. For me this equates to a €60 increase so the €80 I was due gain from the scheme is pretty much wiped out.

angiogoir

Yes. by 10%

flowerific

The creche we use in co Meath is increasing its fee by 5eur per day in September
Under the new government fee we would receive a 4eut per day deduction, so in September we will pay 1eur per day more

angeldelight

No, but they've also decided not to opt into the new scheme

cgc5483

angeldelight wrote: »

No, but they've also decided not to opt into the new scheme

The implementation of this seems very poor for something that was announced in the last budget. The website says you qualify if in a Tusla registered childcare but then further down says speak to your provider to check if they are offering the subsidy. Why give the option to opt in or out to provider?

angeldelight

I actually don't mind that they're not opting in - our little girl is only in creche two days a week anyway so the assistance would be minimal. The government treats early childhood care providers with contempt imo - these things are announced with no consultation or support for implementing them

neonsofa

angeldelight wrote: »

I actually don't mind that they're not opting in - our little girl is only in creche two days a week anyway so the assistance would be minimal. The government treats early childhood care providers with contempt imo - these things are announced with no consultation or support for implementing them

There was a consultation survey prior to the rolling out of the scheme. Not sure whether it informed the actual scheme or not though. My suggestions weren't used anyway :pac:

neris

angeldelight wrote: »

No, but they've also decided not to opt into the new scheme

the govt have messed up on this by not telling the providers how the scheme will work, who will administer it & how or what the rates of subvention will be. Theyve issued contracts for providers to sign up but they dont provide any details or obligations on both sides so alot of pre schools/creches are refusing to sign up until more details and better planning on implementing are put out by the govt or their lackys.