Evidence that we live on ???

railer201

I posted this thread earlier today in the Christian forum to stimulate debate amongst the believers, and non-believers in whether the contents of the link provided evidence that we do indeed live on after death. Clearly the thread is not wanted over in the religious section of boards as it's been transferred here. From previous experience at least I know I'm pushing an open door here with these linked photos, whatever about peoples beliefs in the afterlife !

http://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/news-photos/24-of-the-most-famous-ghost-photographs-ever-taken/ss-BBDklTk?li=AAo1rF5&ocid=mailsignout

NIMAN

None of those are evidence.
And many would be easily explained away as either double exposures, or people simply standing in shot and meant to be a ghost (thinking the Amityville photo).

railer201

NIMAN wrote: »

None of those are evidence.
And many would be easily explained away as either double exposures, or people simply standing in shot and meant to be a ghost (thinking the Amityville photo).

How would you know that though ? For many people who have personally seen ghosts, some of these photos will come as no surprise and will be just further evidence of what they already know.

maccored

As much as Im a fan of the paranormal, I have to agree with NIMAN. It'll take more substantial evidence than photos (or videos and audio) to 'prove' anything. Going out there and looking for an experience i think is the only way presently as everything can be faked (though that doesnt mean everything IS faked)

railer201

maccored wrote: »

As much as Im a fan of the paranormal, I have to agree with NIMAN. It'll take more substantial evidence than photos (or videos and audio) to 'prove' anything. Going out there and looking for an experience i think is the only way presently as everything can be faked (though that doesnt mean everything IS faked)

The problem with this thread being transferred by the Mods in the Christianity forum is that the context can't be transferred, so as has happened the debate appears to have switched to whether some of the supposedly genuine photos are fake or real.

I certainly wouldn't be of the opinion they are proof that our souls/spirits live on beyond this realm, but as a believer that ghosts do exist, I would accept them as evidence IF as stated , some of them are indeed genuine photographs of spirits who have passed on or whatever. By proof I mean there would be no argument about it - evidence meaning they could be genuine -but we've all heard the phrase 'evidence to the contrary'.

Liamario

In my experience, the more a person believes in supernatural things, the more supernatural things they experience (or at least claim to).
Life after death.... intriguing idea with zero evidence to support it and as people become more educated, the less people believe in such things.

I think the concept of heaven is pure fantasy; one person's heaven is another person's hell. I wouldn't want to spend an eternity with my family.

railer201

Liamario wrote: »

In my experience, the more a person believes in supernatural things, the more supernatural things they experience (or at least claim to).
Life after death.... intriguing idea with zero evidence to support it and as people become more educated, the less people believe in such things.

I think the concept of heaven is pure fantasy; one person's heaven is another person's hell. I wouldn't want to spend an eternity with my family.

I would put it the other way round, when people have a supernatural experience they start to consider the possibility that we are spirit beings and do move on to a spirit world after death, not necessarily heaven, which is a particular religious concept. It's not a case of believing in ghosts willy nilly for the fun of it.

Liamario

railer201 wrote: »

I would put it the other way round, when people have a supernatural experience they start to consider the possibility that we are spirit beings and do move on to a spirit world after death, not necessarily heaven, which is a particular religious concept. It's not a case of believing in ghosts willy nilly for the fun of it.

I think people who are more open to the idea of such things tend to experience then more than others. They see what they want to see.

railer201

Liamario wrote: »

I think people who are more open to the idea of such things tend to experience then more than others. They see what they want to see.

Or the experience scares the crap out of them - for such people there is no doubt - they saw what they didn't want to see.

Liamario

railer201 wrote: »

Or the experience scares the crap out of them - for such people there is no doubt - they saw what they didn't want to see.

Yes, because that's how they think. They're projecting their own fears onto things they can't explain. People from different cultures or religions have near death experiences that support their own view point.

endacl

railer201 wrote: »

How would you know that though ? For many people who have personally seen ghosts, some of these photos will come as no surprise and will be just further evidence of what they already know.

Y'see, the problem with that logical fallacy is that it is entirely circular. Its not evidence. Its testimony.

LostHiigaran

Tricks of the Mind by Darren Brown is a good book that covers this somewhat. The mind is happy to trip on itself, how the individual interprets it is from their own experiences. A door closing on its own is a draft for one and something supernatural for another.

railer201

Liamario wrote: »

Yes, because that's how they think. They're projecting their own fears onto things they can't explain. People from different cultures or religions have near death experiences that support their own view point.

endacl wrote: »

Y'see, the problem with that logical fallacy is that it is entirely circular. Its not evidence. Its testimony.

LostHiigaran wrote: »

Tricks of the Mind by Darren Brown is a good book that covers this somewhat. The mind is happy to trip on itself, how the individual interprets it is from their own experiences. A door closing on its own is a draft for one and something supernatural for another.

In my experience the people who have the least grasp on other-worldly events are those who have not experienced any meaningful event, such as poltergeist, visionary etc.

Spending further time on this thread where there appears to be negative attitudes to the 'paranormal per se' is not for me. I respectfully leave it there - thank you.

NIMAN

LostHiigaran wrote: »

Tricks of the Mind by Darren Brown is a good book that covers this somewhat. The mind is happy to trip on itself, how the individual interprets it is from their own experiences. A door closing on its own is a draft for one and something supernatural for another.

Or a robin landing outside your window.....I see about a dozen robins every morning during my breakfast. Do I think it means a long lost relative is watching over me? No, its nature.

Or a mirror falling off the wall. Some automatically think supernatural, I tend to just think too weak an anchor.

maccored

i think its much more complex that that. Ive seen massive lights in a forest where there couldnt have been light, since the light was coming from the side of the hill itself (ive also seen that in two caves with lights of different colours). Ive a video, the audio of which has sounds of people shouting and talking ( which I personally witnessed along with two others) coming from a locked up, secure and alarmed supermarket, not within public access at that time (verified by their management).

I dont say thats ghosts, or claim to know what the story is, i just know ive tried every logical option I can think of to find out what would have caused these things and cant.

in reality, in my book, to throw off any suggestion that yes, there is something more to the world than we perceive, without any kind of thought is just as bad as those who believe everything they hear. Neither side, in that regard, are skeptical.

Liamario

maccored wrote: »

i think its much more complex that that. Ive seen massive lights in a forest where there couldnt have been light, since the light was coming from the side of the hill itself (ive also seen that in two caves with lights of different colours). Ive a video, the audio of which has sounds of people shouting and talking ( which I personally witnessed along with two others) coming from a locked up, secure and alarmed supermarket, not within public access at that time (verified by their management).

I dont say thats ghosts, or claim to know what the story is, i just know ive tried every logical option I can think of to find out what would have caused these things and cant.

in reality, in my book, to throw off any suggestion that yes, there is something more to the world than we perceive, without any kind of thought is just as bad as those who believe everything they hear. Neither side, in that regard, are skeptical.

You can't explain what you saw, so you make up a reason. Can you not see the problem with that?

Avatar MIA

railer201 wrote: »

From previous experience at least I know I'm pushing an open door here with these linked photos, whatever about peoples beliefs in the afterlife !

At least you've debunked yourself of this belief. Linking to a website that generates money by attracting traffic and will sensationalise is not the best source.

and to adopt and change a well known phrase...

There are none so gullible as those who wish to see.

maccored

Liamario wrote: »

You can't explain what you saw, so you make up a reason. Can you not see the problem with that?

what reason have i made up? You are dismissing something you haven't researched, can you not see the problem with that? Don't think for a minute, btw, that Im concerned in anyway about convincing you of anything. I'm not.

enfield

I know there have been at least two people killed in this particular location, a coastal Artillery fort in Cork. I know I have many good spirits on my shoulder looking after me, I stay overnight (with official permission of course) a lot during the summer but I would not sleep in the fort on my own. Even though the sleeping quarters are underground there are movements heard around you during the night that are not buildings settling or anything obvious. If there is someone with me I will stay overnight and when the sounds come I just beat my face into my pillow and concentrate on going asleep, knowing that there is nothing I can do about it anyway. You know there is someone/something nor far away that is moving or doing something. Do I try an communicate with 'it/them?' in the dark small hours that is the last thing on my mind. Are the same sounds there during the day? I never noticed to be honest.
Cheers.
Tom.

railer201

Avatar MIA wrote: »

At least you've debunked yourself of this belief. Linking to a website that generates money by attracting traffic and will sensationalise is not the best source.

and to adopt and change a well known phrase...

There are none so gullible as those who wish to see.

The original saying is just fine - there are none so blind as those who don't want to see. Whether one does believe in the paranormal doesn't concern me and as I've already stated above I'm not interested in having an endless debate on the paranormal 'per se'.

Address the point of the thread if you will, which is 'Are the spirits of dead people appearing to others evidence of an afterlife' ?

If as it seems, you don't believe in such spirits then the purpose of the thread is irrelevant to you.

Avatar MIA

railer201 wrote: »

Address the point of the thread if you will, which is 'Are the spirits of dead people appearing to others evidence of an afterlife' ?

If as it seems, you don't believe in such spirits then the purpose of the thread is irrelevant to you.

You're contradicting yourself above.

Are you interested in people's opinions or not. If it's only a thread for people that believe it is evidence of an afterlife you'll need to rephrase your question.

For me Occams Razor applies. No, they are not evidence.

railer201

Avatar MIA wrote: »

You're contradicting yourself above.

Are you interested in people's opinions or not. If it's only a thread for people that believe it is evidence of an afterlife you'll need to rephrase your question.

For me Occams Razor applies. No, they are not evidence.

Ok - you don't want to answer the question and I'm not interested in your opinions on anything else - I hope that's clear.

Avatar MIA

railer201 wrote: »

Ok - you don't want to answer the question and I'm not interested in your opinions on anything else - I hope that's clear.

Did you even read my post? You REALLY only see what you want to see.

maccored

Theres only really three categories of people to fall into:

1) Those who think its all bull**** (cynics)
2) Those who think its all real (believers)
3) Those who admit they don't know (skeptics).

Cynics, believers and skeptics - I know which I fall into. Which is you Avatar MIA?

In case of confusion, this is professional skeptic (whatever that is) D.J. Grothe's idea of a skeptic:

M-M: People use the word "skeptical" in everyday talk, but often don’t really use it correctly. How do you define "skepticism"?

DJG: To me, the word is best understood by looking at its roots: it comes from the Greek word "skeptikos," which just means to inquire or to find out. We say that skepticism is the best way of finding out the truth and is precisely the opposite of just saying “no” to others' beliefs. On the other hand, a knee-jerk rejection of others' beliefs is more akin to cynicism, not skepticism, and is rather closed-minded.

https://psmag.com/social-justice/critical-thinker-explains-skepticism-vs-cynicism-36923