Just me or is it a rip off? Waterford - Dublin

dartboardio

Paid 32 euro for a single ticket to Heuston this morning. Would of cost 16.99 had I booked online, is that a broad daylight robbery?! Am I just tight :S

dartboardio

On Irish rail BTW.

snowflaker

Why didn't you book online?

€17 is great value from Waterford!

Zebra3

€19 online return with BE. :pac:

Jamie2k9

dartboardio wrote: »

Paid 32 euro for a single ticket to Heuston this morning. Would of cost 16.99 had I booked online, is that a broad daylight robbery?! Am I just tight :S

32 for a single but a day return is just 34 which is why a single ticket appears costly.

Always book online in future, chances are you even used the website to check the times as well!

Hilly Bill

dartboardio wrote: »

Paid 32 euro for a single ticket to Heuston this morning. Would of cost 16.99 had I booked online, is that a broad daylight robbery?! Am I just tight :S

Nope, you had the option.

Del.Monte

All this crap with different fares does more damage to Irish Rail's already poor credibility, but I suppose it provides work for the top heavy clerical side of the business.

Mulbert

Del.Monte wrote:

All this crap with different fares does more damage to Irish Rail's already poor credibility, but I suppose it provides work for the top heavy clerical side of the business.

Del.Monte wrote:

All this crap with different fares does more damage to Irish Rail's already poor credibility, but I suppose it provides work for the top heavy clerical side of the business.

How would it provide work for the clerical side of the business?

Del.Monte

Mulbert wrote: »

How would it provide work for the clerical side of the business?

I don't mean in ticket offices but in the numerous administrative offices in Connolly, Heuston etc.

Hilly Bill

Del.Monte wrote: »

I don't mean in ticket offices but in the numerous administrative offices in Connolly, Heuston etc.

How?

Del.Monte

Hilly Bill wrote: »

How?

Well, presumably, they have numerous people dealing with revenue control - or perhaps not being CIE. Anyway, all I'm saying is that the CIE model is broken and one item that could easily be addressed would be a vastly simplified fare structure and an easy to use website.

Xterminator

All this crap with different fares does more damage to Irish Rail's already poor credibility, but I suppose it provides work for the top heavy clerical side of the business.

mate. the issue here was the OP paid at the ticket office on the day. you are NEVER going to get best value that way.

i get that he felt it was dear, but its like going to arnotts to buy a cooker and finding later it was cheaper online etc. Its a case of not being arsed to shop around then feeling hard done by.

But i don't get your point at all.

Geuze

Del.Monte wrote: »

All this crap with different fares does more damage to Irish Rail's already poor credibility, but I suppose it provides work for the top heavy clerical side of the business.

Price discrimination is sensible.

There could be twenty different fares for the 189 seats on a Ryanair plane.

goingnowhere

OP should have booked online to avail of the best fare.

Time or quota based discounts are standard and industry standard practice to charge the full fare on the day

Geuze

There are now three online fares that I can see.

No flexibility
semi-flexible, take the train before or after = add 1 euro
fully flexible, take any train that day = add 2 euro

Sounds good to me.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Del.Monte wrote: »

Well, presumably, they have numerous people dealing with revenue control - or perhaps not being CIE. Anyway, all I'm saying is that the CIE model is broken and one item that could easily be addressed would be a vastly simplified fare structure and an easy to use website.

the online fares are adjusted by softare similar to the software used by ryan air, aer lingua and Munster rugby.

its not that there are a dozen staff members in the office toying with online fares for the fun of it.

Dravokivich

Del.Monte wrote: »

All this crap with different fares does more damage to Irish Rail's already poor credibility, but I suppose it provides work for the top heavy clerical side of the business.

I'm pretty sure it's the same in the UK. Cheaper to pre-purchase online, than to rock on up and purchase at a ticket office.

All rail companies in this administrative conspiracy?

Del.Monte

Dravokivich wrote: »

I'm pretty sure it's the same in the UK. Cheaper to pre-purchase online, than to rock on up and purchase at a ticket office.

All rail companies in this administrative conspiracy?

I'm not saying there's a conspiracy but just that a vastly simplified fare structure and improved website would be a good idea. How did we all manage before online booking and multiple fare structures - quite well would be the answer. One only has to look at the sheer number of fare queries/complaints on Boards to see that there's a problem - and the number of pissed off people who post about it on Boards must represent an infinitesimally small percentage of those who feel aggrieved.

Ben D Bus

Del.Monte wrote: »

I'm not saying there's a conspiracy but just that a vastly simplified fare structure and improved website would be a good idea. How did we all manage before online booking and multiple fare structures - quite well would be the answer. One only has to look at the sheer number of fare queries/complaints on Boards to see that there's a problem - and the number of pissed off people who post about it on Boards must represent an infinitesimally small percentage of those who feel aggrieved.

And loads of people complain about Ryanair too. And we managed fine before 20 euro flights to Europe too. :rolleyes:

Lets be honest, when you say a simplified fare structure what you mean is everyone getting the cheap fare all the time. Just like Ryanair

Hilly Bill

Del.Monte wrote: »

I'm not saying there's a conspiracy but just that a vastly simplified fare structure and improved website would be a good idea. How did we all manage before online booking and multiple fare structures - quite well would be the answer. One only has to look at the sheer number of fare queries/complaints on Boards to see that there's a problem - and the number of pissed off people who post about it on Boards must represent an infinitesimally small percentage of those who feel aggrieved.

How simplified do you want it? Free travel simple?

Del.Monte

Hilly Bill wrote: »

How simplified do you want it? Free travel simple?

I don't have free travel - do you?

Are you denying that there's considerable dissatisfaction with the situation as it pertains?

Hilly Bill

You now have a choice of 4 fares with more flexibility regarding missed services without paying a surgarge. What more do you want?

Del.Monte

Hilly Bill wrote: »

You now have a choice of 4 fares with more flexibility regarding missed services without paying a surgarge. What more do you want?

That's great so, everything is tickety-boo and Irish Rail can sail on, job done and nobody is dissatisfied except me.

Do you have free travel?

bk

I do feel like Irish Rail haven't gotten their ticketing right. Over the last 5 years or so they have chopped and changed how they do online tickets many times and yet these changes don't seem to win them customers.

Sure demand based ticketing works well for Airlines, but I'm not at all convinced it works well for Irish Rail. Airlines don't face any competition then other airlines, all of whom use the same model. IR on the other hand faces competition from cars and coaches.

I believe the demand based pricing model makes Irish Rail far less flexible then car and coach and it hurts them overall.

If the demand based model is so great, then why not also use it on DART and commuter rail?

If the demand based model is so great, why not also use it for the free travel pass? Free off peak, +€20 peak.

People point to UK intercity rail having a demand based model. But we aren't the same as them.

Other models exist, look at the Netherlands. €20 walk up fare, no online bookings at all, buys you a ticket on a train to anywhere in the country and it is highly successful.

They sort of do this for students, €32 return to Cork, walk up or online. Actually pretty good value and at that price and convenience I'd consider it over a coach. But then I look at the "adult" fare €86 for the same, €40 if booked far in advance with little flexibility, I laugh and click over to Aircoach/GoBE.

Irish Rail aren't operating in a vacuum and I think they have their product and ticketing all wrong.

Jamie2k9

Like the fare structure or not, the trains are heavily loaded so it's working....

cgcsb

Standard for transport operators across Europe(the world??) To offer cheaper inline fares. Best value is found through the internet/shopping around. That's the way of the world these days.

I do think that the website should say, when booking, "save €XX, compared to walk up fare." This would help old people, the less computer literate etc. Incidently you could have just booked a ticket on your smart phone then and there instead of buying a ticket for double the price

bk

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Like the fare structure or not, the trains are heavily loaded so it's working....

Really, then why is IR on the brink of bankruptcy?

Also the Cork trains today seem to be way quieter then back before Aircoach, etc. started up. I remember there use to be large numbers of people standing by the toilets on that train, now there often seems to be lots of empty seats.

bk

cgcsb wrote: »

Standard for transport operators across Europe(the world??) To offer cheaper inline fares. Best value is found through the internet/shopping around. That's the way of the world these days.

Which means Irish Rail will always be stuffed as those people will then always find the significantly cheaper fares on Aircoach, GoBE, Citylink, etc.

Oh and last I checked, Netherlands was in Europe!

Again if this model is so great, why not do it on Commuter and DART too?

The point I'm making is that IR thinks their intercity service is some fancy service that they can charge a premium for like an airline. The truth is that there is little premium about it. Little better then a coach. The train service in the Netherlands have it right, treat it like a fancy coach and fill it up. Online bookings only for first class carriages. Much better model IMO.

Jamie2k9

bk wrote: »

Really, then why is IR on the brink of bankruptcy?

Also the Cork trains today seem to be way quieter then back before Aircoach, etc. started up. I remember there use to be large numbers of people standing by the toilets on that train, now there often seems to be lots of empty seats.

The point was reduce fares even more and then you will have to increase costs by increasing capacity.

bk

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The point was reduce fares even more and then you will have to increase costs by increasing capacity.

Oh what a terrible idea that would be, be forced to offer even more services to the public!

The point is to attract customers, fill empty seats and maybe even have people standing. If you are so busy that you have to add extra carriages, etc. Isn't that a great problem to have? Isn't that exactly the type of problem that private companies like Ryanair, Aircoach, etc. strive to have?

Rail infrastructure is horribly expensive to maintain. It only makes sense if it is carry large numbers of people. If it isn't being used we might as well shut it down and save the money to be used elsewhere.

Jamie2k9

bk wrote: »

Oh what a terrible idea that would be, be forced to offer even more services to the public!

The point is to attract customers, fill empty seats and maybe even have people standing. If you are so busy that you have to add extra carriages, etc. Isn't that a great problem to have? Isn't that exactly the type of problem that private companies like Ryanair, Aircoach, etc. strive to have?

Rail infrastructure is horribly expensive to maintain. It only makes sense if it is carry large numbers of people. If it isn't being used we might as well shut it down and save the money to be used elsewhere.

I agree in principal but just pointing out cutting fares which is the default position of most isn't always the answer.

I think the new fare structure is really good and if anything they should be charging a much higher difference between Low and Semi Flex.

devnull

bk wrote: »

Again if this model is so great, why not do it on Commuter and DART too?

Because the model does not work on short distance journeys and throughout a lot of Europe it's common for tickets bought in advance to be cheaper than tickets on the day for long distance services that are not very frequent.

On high frequency and short distance services it's not really needed, you won't find one European operator who uses such pricing for frequent short hop services because there is no need for it.

The point I'm making is that IR thinks their intercity service is some fancy service that they can charge a premium for like an airline. The truth is that there is little premium about it. Little better then a coach. The train service in the Netherlands have it right, treat it like a fancy coach and fill it up. Online bookings only for first class carriages. Much better model IMO.

Then you end up losing even more money because you have huge problems with everybody wanting to travel at the same time and mass overcrowding and other trains during the rest of the day which run around empty.

Pricing is used as a tool to match supply with capacity across the day and this is very common in many countries and is becoming even more so in Central and Eastern Europe as well because of the fact the free for all system doesn't work because it leads to crush loading at peaks and people being left behind and thin air off-peak.

In order for any transport business to be cost effective you have to make sure that resources are spread in a way which is cost effective for the business and using yield based pricing is a way of doing this, if you removed yield based pricing there would be need for massive strengthening of capacity in the peak and reduction in the off-peak and the costs of achieving that would be very large and increase costs.

Also you have to figure out on top of that if you want a low flat rate you have to take into account if the gained revenue and the increased costs which will come will cancel out the lost revenue from existing passengers who will now be paying much cheaper fares.

BK - I agree with a lot of what you say on some topics, but operationally and financially I can't agree with you on this, it's much more complicated than you make it out to be, what you say operationally and in the views of a passenger would make a lot of sense, however it's not so simple as that and there is a lot more to it.

pilly

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Nope, you had the option.

How do you know OP had the option? Not everyone has a credit/debit card and even if they do not everyone has money in the bank.

My daughter for example, bus passes by her full after she'd paid for the bus ticket, last bus of the evening, has to get the train instead, goes over to the station and has to pay 32 euro out of the 50 euro she has left for the week in her pocket because she'd no money in the bank to book online.

Not as simple as people seem to think. Not comparable to Ryanair either, this is 2 completely different prices, one almost double the other on the same day at the same time, not weeks apart.

bk

But devnull, clearly what IR are doing just isn't working.

This is how it works in the Netherlands, there are two type of carriages/tickets on the train:

- 2nd class, the majority of carriages, no bookings, there are seats, but not guaranteed, you might end up standing, but then the tickets are cheap, just €20 for as far as you want to go, so no expectation of a seat, it is public transport after all.

- 1st class, usually one or two carriages. Book online, guaranteed seat, bigger, more comfortable seats, etc.

Basically you get the best of both worlds on one train. Cheap tickets for those who want a cheap service, pack them in high. 1st class service for people willing to pay more. It actually makes first class worth getting there, unlike here where there is little difference.

The results? Their system is insanely successful. The trains are jam packed, double decker trains everywhere and the service more then pays for itself. There is even little in the way of competition from coaches there, given that rail is such good value and so heavily used.

Here, how I see it, IR's model is failing badly. They are losing customers to the road, both coach and car. If they can't change, then I honestly see little future for intercity rail in Ireland. Either they attract lots more people unto the train or it will all end up getting shut down IMO.

devnull

bk wrote: »

But devnull, clearly what IR are doing just isn't working.

Nobody said what IR is doing works great, however a lot of IR problems are down to infrastructure and value rather than pricing itself in my opinion, the price is not the core problem, the value of what it provides and the speed is.

2nd class, the majority of carriages, no bookings, there are seats, but not guaranteed, you might end up standing, but then the tickets are cheap, just €20 for as far as you want to go, so no expectation of a seat, it is public transport after all.

Basically you get the best of both worlds on one train. Cheap tickets for those who want a cheap service, pack them in high. 1st class service for people willing to pay more. It actually makes first class worth getting there, unlike here where there is little difference.

Any system that doesn't allow you to reserve a seat on a long distance train in standard class is a joke in my view and simply doesn't work, risking having to stand for hours without an alternative to pay more unless you pay for first class is dreadful and not the kind of experience we should be championing.

It treats people like cattle class and that people who can afford to pay first class are given a seat but if you can't afford that you just should go in standard class and stand for a few hours. That's not what I want to see come in here and quite frankly is a joke of a system.

I have seen this in other countries and what happens is crush loaded trains and people with arms and legs digging into each other in the corridors, no space at all and you can be like this for hours, I have been on trains like this and a lot of these train companies have saw passenger bleed to coaches, because of this, because at least on a coach they were guaranteed a seat.

This is something that bus operators in Central and Eastern Europe have used to base their whole marketing on, the fact they can offer you a seat for a fraction of the price that the train cannot and you will have some personal space, in the end the operators started ending the free for all and allowing reservations in second class to stop the passenger bleed because their services became very overcrowded.

The results? Their system is insanely successful. The trains are jam packed, double decker trains everywhere and the service more then pays for itself.

Nothing to do with the fact that they share borders with other European countries who have jointly helped them with the cost of the international routes and railways and the fact they have much higher line speeds because of higher infrastructure investment?

Ireland's problem comes back to infrastructure and line speed and the geographical nature of the country, the many speed restrictions, the fact it's on an Island and various other bits of history. Comparing it to Netherlands which is a completely different country is a red herring in my book, you just can't compare the system.

I would use the train even less if they invoked the Dutch system here, I'd pick a seat on a coach for 3 hours over standing on a train for 3 hours any day whatever price the train was because if you dumb down the train experience that much by not being able to book a seat, then any benefit of the lower price for me is lost by the fact it delivers a far worse product.

At the end of the day it all comes back to value, and simply Irish Rail do not deliver value for money on many routes now and that will never change until the infrastructure gets some investment. We can tinker around the edges all we like, but until we provide better infrastructure for services we won't achieve very much.

The Netherlands is a red herring here, they have fast tracks, good infrastructure and some high speed lines that blow road travel times out of the water, so of course they're going to have less of a bleed to coaches, unfortunately we don't have anything like the infrastructure that Netherlands does so the same system isnh't going to work here.

It might work for some people if the train is much faster than the bus even if it wouldn't for me, but the simple fact is this, if I can spend 3 hours on a train without being sure of a seat for €20 or I can take a bus with a seat for €15 and it's half an hour quicker I'd still take the bus.

The J Stands for Jay

pilly wrote: »

My daughter for example, bus passes by her full after she'd paid for the bus ticket, last bus of the evening, has to get the train instead.

Sounds like she should just book the train in the first place.

Hilly Bill

Del.Monte wrote: »

That's great so, everything is tickety-boo and Irish Rail can sail on, job done and nobody is dissatisfied except me.

Do you have free travel?

Non of your business if i have or not.

Hilly Bill

bk wrote: »

Really, then why is IR on the brink of bankruptcy?

Also the Cork trains today seem to be way quieter then back before Aircoach, etc. started up. I remember there use to be large numbers of people standing by the toilets on that train, now there often seems to be lots of empty seats.

It's because it's underfunded, if it got paid for every journey a person on free travel made it make a profit.

devnull

Hilly Bill wrote: »

if it got paid for every journey a person on free travel made it make a profit.

But on the other hand they are also being paid for free travel pass holders who never have used them every year, since they are paid per free travel pass issued rather than per free travel pass used on their services.

Also if Free Travel Pass holders had to pay for each journey a lot of them would not make said journey.

Jamie2k9

devnull wrote: »

But on the other hand they are also being paid for free travel pass holders who never have used them every year, since they are paid per free travel pass issued rather than per free travel pass used on their services.

Also if Free Travel Pass holders had to pay for each journey a lot of them would not make said journey.

They get €25 euro per pass, which won't cover a return journey for the majority. Based on 1.2m passes and IE received around 30m.

If around 15% of IE passengers are pass holders it brings it down to €5 per pass per year.

devnull

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

They get €25 euro per pass, which won't cover a return journey for the majority. Based on 1.2m passes and IE received around 30m.

If around 15% of IE passengers are pass holders it brings it down to €5 per pass per year.

But not all of those 1.2m pass holders use Irish Rail every year so it's a flawed calculation.

Jamie2k9

devnull wrote: »

But not all of those 1.2m pass holders use Irish Rail every year so it's a flawed calculation.

Yeah and that's with I said around 15% (6m trips) out of 40m (IE passengers yearly) comes down €5. I really don't think 15% is an unfair % to use, personally I think it may well be higher.

The reality is it's heavily underfunded, they should at least be meeting 50% of each pass holders journey.

Del.Monte

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Non of your business if i have or not.

Shouldn't start something you're not prepared to finish.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=103934462&postcount=20

Hilly Bill

devnull wrote: »

But on the other hand they are also being paid for free travel pass holders who never have used them every year, since they are paid per free travel pass issued rather than per free travel pass used on their services.

Also if Free Travel Pass holders had to pay for each journey a lot of them would not make said journey.

True regarding passes not being used. But there are a loads of the paper ones still being used and not recorded so it balances out a bit. I wouldn't suggest pass holders paying either as it defeats the idea of it being a free pass.

Hilly Bill

Del.Monte wrote: »

Shouldn't start something you're not prepared to finish.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=103934462&postcount=20

Start what?

dartboardio

Was meant to book online of course, though only had a limited amount in my account and needed to book a different bus for a different time that day, so had to pick! Wasn't expecting it to be 32 euro at the ticket office though. And you can only book 2 hours beforehand which is kind of annoying too IMO. - if you decide to get a last minute train you have to buy at office.

dartboardio

Considering I got a Belfast return bus ticket from Dublin for a tenner online, convinces me now to always buy online for public transport.

goingnowhere

dartboardio wrote: »

Was meant to book online of course, though only had a limited amount in my account and needed to book a different bus for a different time that day, so had to pick! Wasn't expecting it to be 32 euro at the ticket office though. And you can only book 2 hours beforehand which is kind of annoying too IMO. - if you decide to get a last minute train you have to buy at office.

Booking window is 60 days to 90 minutes before departure, Aircoach has to be 5pm the day before for example

bk

goingnowhere wrote: »

Booking window is 60 days to 90 minutes before departure, Aircoach has to be 5pm the day before for example

Yes, but the Aircoach walk up fare is only about €2 more expensive. Whereas IR can be 3 times more expensive!

Also Aircoach aren't the only coach company, most other coach companies allow for online booking up to 60 minutes in advance, Aircoach is the exception.

Dublin - Cork: GoBE 1 hour in advance
Dublin - Belfast: Dublin Coach 90 mins in advance
Dublin - Galway: Citylink 90 mins in advance

devnull

bk wrote: »

Yes, but the Aircoach walk up fare is only about €2 more expensive. Whereas IR can be 3 times more expensive!

Aircoach Dublin to Cork online is €10 - €12 and cash €16.

Also Aircoach aren't the only coach company, most other coach companies allow for online booking up to 60 minutes in advance, Aircoach is the exception.

Dublin - Cork: GoBE 1 hour in advance
Dublin - Belfast: Dublin Coach 90 mins in advance
Dublin - Galway: Citylink 90 mins in advance

The reason Aircoach is difference is because there is no booking limits on any of their coaches on Intercity routes, It will keep taking bookings and then extra coaches will be arranged to cover the capacity and notice is required to ensure that can happen, hence the cut-off.

With a lot of the other operators they take a certain amount of bookings and when that quota is filled they stop taking bookings so they are able to be flexible with the deadline for bookings closing, but the side effect of this is that the capacity for each departure is more limited.

When you have busy services and operate reliefs regularly, there needs to be a operational procedures in place to ensure that you have enough notice to arrange reliefs without turning a lot of people away and forcing people to book ahead so you can do that is a good way of doing so.

The end result is that less people get turned away with notices saying coaches are booked out and more capacity is provided than otherwise might be the case.

Banjoxed

dartboardio wrote: »

Paid 32 euro for a single ticket to Heuston this morning. Would of cost 16.99 had I booked online, is that a broad daylight robbery?! Am I just tight :S

You used "would of" instead of "would have". Frankly, you got off lightly.

:P