Where to buy a home abroad

cubix

Would be interested to hear from anyone who looked into or bought a property aboard and if there was any sites you found helpful in getting your homework. IF there were regions that were still good value. Thinking of buying with the idea of using on holiday basis and moving there full time in years to come.

Ideally will be looking at places in rural setting. Would be nice to get the seasons, was thinking South of France/ northern Spain/ Portugal

The_Conductor

There isn't a short and simple response for you.

What are your hobbies?
Do you speak another language?
Have you looked at the tax implications of buying in the different countries?
With respect of of the tax implications- look into how these might affect your Irish tax obligations........

Keep in mind also- you're looking at buying a property- possibly for retiring to- down the road. What facilities and amenties are likely to be of interest to you when the time comes to retire- access to healthcare, perhaps a golf course, local shops etc etc.........?

I honestly don't think you've sat down and figured what you're looking for, thus far.

I've a share (with my siblings) in a holiday home- just outside a little village- about 100km north of Lisbon, a 15 minute drive from several coastal villages, and less than 10 minutes from a hospital and a town that has good courses and further education for retirees (and golf courses etc).

You need to sit down and decide what you are going to value going forwards.

Also keep in mind you're probably going to have to register with local tax authorities, have property tax and other taxes to pay- etc. etc.

You seriously need to sit down and figure just what you value, what you're willing to compromise on- and how all of this is going to affect you- or benefit you- between now and the time when you finally get to retire..........

cubix

All your points are spot on, putting them all to one side I suppose what I am really after is peoples experiences of their holiday/ second home and their surroundings.

AmberGold

Spain is the Wild West from a legal point of view should something go wrong. Speaking from experience here on this.
I was always sorry I didn't buy in the South of France which I considered at the time, if I had of I wouldn't have been ripped off by a Spanish developer, find that a bank guarantee was non existent and spend 10 years being dragged through the courts in an effort to get justice.
You don't know who to trust there especially Solicitors.
France on the other hand has a more stable economy and property market.

The Ging and I

I think you should try holidays in all areas you are interested in.Try meet expats in these areas and get the plus/minus issues.
Do you want to live in the mountains or by the sea. Some villages near me flood regularly from a river. Theres a lot of rural areas that (same in Ireland) are being depopulated and have lost their cafes and bakers without which the villages have no soul. Some well known parts of Provance are deserted in the winter as there are very few locals living there.
Its hard to live in other countries if you don't speak the language. Ordinary stuff from dealing with builders to getting a mobile phone can be difficult. Its not unusual to hear 4 languages spoken in the same cafe. I shared a table with a group who live near the Spanish border. I thought their French was really clear and easy to understand. The next morning they were talking among them selves in Catalan.
I live in the south of France and Im staying.... its 09.00 & 30c.

cubix

AG: As you say plenty of horror stories of unfinished developments etc

Ging: Have read some posts alright about parts of France/ towns feeling like a holiday resort where every one packs up/ places close for winter. I think I could happily live by the sea or the mountainous areas but feel the slightly in land option would have more to offer for day to day living with the option to drive to other spots. I would be happy in the middle of now where with 5-10acres woodland perched up on a hill side but know the rest of the gang would be more practical and would like the rural feel but be close to a busy enough village/town. None of us have another languages so as you say this can put you on the back foot. Don't think I would be brave enough to build straight away so would look for something already built and adapt as we go. As mentioned I like the idea of seasons and for this reason think S/France- N/ Spain would provide this with summers that feel warm and winters were you would most likely get snow.

CantGetNoSleep

Depending on how often you plan to come home when you move there, Cyprus could be a good option - good value and year round sun, but a long flight if only going for a holiday.

Again be careful with solicitors and title deeds.

Don't buy in the north unless there is a reunification deal (and it passes through the referendums). Some great property in the north but legally dubious to buy it. Reunification could have knock on impact on prices all over the island by massively increasing supply though.

The_Conductor

In Portugal- how about a property on a golf course with nearby mature villages etc- but enough away that you're not swamped with tourists etc.

Praia del Rey- is nearby to Obidos (and Peniche etc) has a nice hotel where you can go for a meal, excellent golf etc. Note- major downside- is its not aimed at Portuguese- so you're more likely to be in the company of other retirees than locals. You could alternatively buy a property in a nearby village- Serra del Rey, Bombarral etc- for a more authentic feel.

Only downside to living in the area- is humidity- you have to run dehumidifiers year round- or literally any clothes in wardrobes, curtains, drapery etc- disintegrates. Also- while its not cold in the winter- its not warm either- and you're as likely to be in a fog bank- as to have clear skies.

You have to look into the pros and cons of any area- and go in with your eyes wide open. If you imagine its all blue skies, cheap help, nice temperatures and good food- you're probably going to be disappointed, no matter where you go.

When my parents originally bought our holiday home (over 20 years ago at this stage)- they spent a few summers going around southern Europe visiting various areas and getting a feel for life in different places. Where they chose suited them- then- honestly, I doubt my Dad would choose to buy there now, had he the chance to do so. My Mum has since passed away- and a lot of the things that drew them to the area in the first place- don't feature as strongly anymore. He wanted to sell a while back- but my siblings thought not to.

I can't emphasise strongly enough- that what appeals to you now- most probably will be a noose around your neck in 25 years time.

Look at the area I'm talking about on the news- it hasn't featured any fatalities from the forest fires (and hopefully it doesn't this year)- but it is subject to them (Christ only knows who thought it was a good idea to plant the whole country in eucalyptus). Electricity cuts are not uncommon- from lightening strikes to pylons- you get perhaps 1-2 prolonged cuts a month during the summer (more than 2-3 hours).

Then there are weird little things that depending on your frame of mind you might love- the local McDonalds biggest selling items are a range of local soups (which are known as 'farmer's soup') and espresso.

Honestly- I'd spend a couple of years- driving to different areas, spending a few weeks here and there. Get a feel for the different areas. Do it at different times of the year. Look into periodic events that happen (even little things like a car-boot sale the locals hold on the first Sunday of every month- can take an importance beyond any comrehension)- or if you're Irish- perhaps contact a local satellite dish installer- and enquire whether you can pick up tv in the area you're looking at (this can be difficult- since they retired some of the old Astra satellites).

If its a popular/touristy area- and you have a swimming pool- it might be near impossible to get it serviced if your pump breaks or you need some periodic maintenance, without waiting an inordinate amount of time.

If its not a touristy area- its entirely foreseeable that the locals may not have English- and you may have to use a common second language to communicate for example- throughout Portugal many of the French terrestrial channels are rebroadcast- so even young children have very good French- while their English may be non-existent.

Then you have to think about water shortages, forest fires, property taxes, funny electronics that don't like constant humidity, flakey broadband/mobile phone connections, power cuts, evacuation drills, lack of availability of familiar products (like fresh milk for example- you don't have to chill UHT and it has a long shelf life- so its ubiquitous- whereas fresh milk- might be only found in a supermaket in a town a half hour away).

Then again- you have little trucker's stops all over the place- which will serve you a bowl of chunky salted cod stew with a bowl of rice and a glass of wine- for less than a fiver.........

Lots of pros and cons..........

FireFoxBoy

Barcelonas a nice spot. I lived there for a while. The price of property is cheap and the standard of lving is quite good for what you pay.

The Ging and I

cubix A remote spot in the mountains is IMO the very type of place I would not recommend for holiday use.
Fire; its unseasonably hot nearly 40c here now and you know off Portugal. The Fire brigade here are better resourced than the the entire Irish military. They drive out and wait for fires. They have guys driving around looking for anyone doing anything fire related. I was out cycling one day and I stopped for a leak, the boys pulled up and told me all about no camp fires.
Security; I know houses in the mountains that would be the envy of most house owners - but they all have steel doors and barred windows.
A friend went to her house in Spain just to meet a group walking out her drive with her entire olive harvest in baskets.
Spain has no trespass laws so you could be doing anything while some one just appears in your back garden.
Water; you might need it tanked in.
Snow; no problem except you need the the whole 4 wheel winter tyres just to get a pint of milk.
Internet - forget it, its often hard to get mobile reception.
Im not trying to talk you out of the idea just ideas to go on.

My advise is to buy into a small village town that is "alive" . An indicator is busy cafes and people - supermarket etc. Live where there are neighbours as they are your security.This is part of learning a language also. Another BIG issue is airports. Try look for somewhere there are direct flights but most of these stop in October so you need a plan B. We were able to leave a car underground in an airport for 800€ a year but its dearer if you pick big airports.
Best bet is pick a few spots and rent.
Italy's worth looking at also.

PokeHerKing

FireFoxBoy wrote:

Barcelonas a nice spot. I lived there for a while. The price of property is cheap and the standard of lving is quite good for what you pay.

Smashing city. Property is not cheap though.

PhoenixParker

Flights is the first thing to be considered. You need to be within an hour of a decently sized airport with flights from Dublin, preferably two such airports. Look for year round flights to at least one of those airports and a frequent schedule. People bought property based on ryanair flights to small remote airports and ended up with really long journeys when ryanair moved elsewhere. Barcelona, Lisbon, lyon/geneva, your actual house can be in the sticks an hour away but good links are essential.

There's a limited range of areas meeting those criteria, so make a list then think about your preferences and things like climate, hobbies, food. Research and narrow it down to a general area. Visit the area, try to house exchange or long term air bnb so you get a real feel for the area. Go slightly off season. Remember you plan to go there over and over, are you really happy to do that?

If so drive around the area, visit as many towns and villages as you can. Find a local agent you like and trust to guide you through the house hunting and buying process. Take your time to find the right house in the right location. If your target is the Barcelona area for instance, there are hundreds of different towns and villages along the coast in both directions to look into.

In terms of the property I would recommend a secondhand property in an established managed development with at least some amenities in walking distance. Avoid places that are exclusively marketed to foreign nationals, there's usually a reason for that and it's not a good one. Secondhand and well established avoids the developer disappearing issue. The managed development takes care of any outside space and keeps an eye on security.

P. Breathnach

The Ging and I wrote: »

...
My advise is to buy into a small village town that is "alive" ....

The problem with this approach is that you take a home in that village out of the stock for permanent residents. If a number of people do that, then the shops and cafand services that make it appealing might be lost.

cubix

Appreciate everyone's input

Conductor:Various points taken, thanks for the in-depth post

Ging: As you say short term may not be best to have something off in the middle of no where, as per the news Portugal is getting a right lick of it.

Have been looking at the N/W of France (Normandy/Brittany) and prices seem reasonable. Benefits would be boat ports, more English spoken. Cons may be not always as warm as say further south (Toulouse). Not as much scope to go road tripping/ border travelling easily.

Did anyone find certain sites better when looking for houses in Europe.

amtc

My aunt has a place in the south of france. Her husband is very much a francophile and pretty much lives there all year round. They were well used to living separately as he worked in Paris for many years and she (due to elderly mother and children) spent more time here. What they did was to go to meetings at alliance francaise in dublin 2 and met some like minded couples and formed a kind of house hunting club amongst a number of couples.

If I were to go abroad I'd fancy malta...in 20 years!

cubix

Amtc:The D2 thing sounds interesting

We did Malta couple of years ago and herself was very taken with it, we went early enough in the year and the heat was still very intense. You could easily get into the pool in the eveing 10-11pm and not be cold. I am sure you would acclimatise but think heat like this would keep you indoors some of the time. I know you can boat from island to island but not sure if Island life would be to restrictive. We plan on going back but not sure if I would want to live there.

Samuel T. Cogley

Buy a boat IMHO.

Spanish Eyes

Carcassonne S of France.

It is just brilliant. Easy access, bus from airport, train station in the town that takes you everywhere and anywhere, great shopping, lovely canal, great food, and if you are into it, an Irish bar or two. Great markets in the Square. It just gets better every time. Within half an hour are the vineyards easily accessible by train, free tastings and great craic around the time of the grape harvest. Boules and the like. Very friendly people as long as you make an effort to speak a bit of the lingo.

There are taxes to be paid. Council tax (Fonciere) and property tax (Habitation). Hefty and bureaucratic income taxes if you let the place, can mean a lot of hassle from the Departement des Impots (Revenue) They are relentless. Full employment you see for the PS. LOL.

All year round flights, but if that stopped for whatever reason, it would be a problem. Not insurmountable but still. That is the only worry. But there are always flights from UK, pain in the neck but needs must if necessary.

Their property conveyancing system is excellent. All done by a Notaire, who is State appointed and acts for both sides. The attention to detail is mind boggling, but reassuring.

Ease of access is a priority I think.

Baybay

I'm probably thinking more about France in this response as it would be the country with which I am most familiar.

The number one priority is at least one airport, preferably two, nearby with direct flights to Dublin, year round. This cannot be understated either for yourself or if you plan on having other family come & go. Everyone thinks they'll travel at time of purchase but they may not. This of course could be a blessing!
If you plan on renting out your property, airports with UK, Belgian or German flights are good. Not so much for the Netherlands as they tend to drive more than other Europeans, especially to France, in my opinion.

Particularly in southern France & areas near international borders, where Spanish or Italian might be the second language, English speakers amongst locals seem few & far between. More do have a smattering in recent years but I wouldn't like to rely their ability in general to deal with your building, banking, legal, medical, Internet queries any more than a French person could go in to our local hardware store to discuss plumbing requirements in French.

If you buy a holiday home, you never really go on holiday in the same way again. There are taxes as already stated. Your obligation will be noted on purchase so these will not be in any way optional. There is upkeep, as with any property but in this case one that may be unattended most of the year. So, are there large gardens to be maintained, pools to be opened & closed, housekeepers to open up the house in advance of you or your rental guests arrival? How do you find or converse with these people? If you're only using the property for a couple of weeks a year, those weeks might be filled with collecting your cheque book, organising a new wifi box, cutting hedges, realigning your satellite dish or rejigging the sprinkler system. There can be quite a bit to be said for a lock up & leave.

There are lots of expats. Mixed blessing. A friend has a holiday home in France for the last twelve years & was dismayed earlier this year when her Leaving Cert
child revealed no great propensity for the language despite holidaying there every summer as French never really needed to be spoken.
Brexit can dominate to a point beyond boredom. And so many think you can help them discover if they're Irish. Gross generalisations but also reality.

All that said, owning property abroad can be an enriching experience in so many ways but it needs to approached with realism, wherever you buy.
For me, it would be France. I like the south because I like the heat. Some parts are notoriously expensive but others are just as beautiful, equally well serviced but without the summer throngs.

K.Flyer

Having been down that road, and know many others that have as well, my advise to you would be to rent at the very least for a few months before making any commitment.
A two week holiday can be very very nice, but when the reality of living, shopping, dealing with services and getting on with life kick in, then you get to know how good or bad a place can be and how suited you are to it.
Language is a must if you are planning long time and the further from a city or large town you are the most likely you are going to need it, so keep that in mind.
As mentioned above, 1hr to an airport is about far enough, but how will you get to and from it? Think it through.
Research and research more, and when you have done that, do it again, you would be surprised at what you can learn about a place.

Sausage dog

I've nothing to add on locations but if you buy a holiday home will you feel the need to always go there on your holidays meaning you miss out on seeing other places/countries etc. Friends of mine felt like this after a few years but they've now rented out their holiday home long term to locals. Choosing a good location would give you this option if you ever bored of the same holiday location. How much time would you have free every year to spend there? Have you long to go to retirement? Many apartments in tourist resorts can be rented cheaply enough off-peak for a few months at a time. Would you consider that for retirement?

The_Conductor

You *need* to talk to people who have property in the area- preferably non-nationals- to get a reasonable understanding of the pros and cons of the area.

E.g. I'd love to live near Florence in Italy- however, I'd have heart failure trying to comply with the tax code. France meanwhile- charge extraterritorial taxes on property held in other countries- e.g. if you have a home in Ireland and one in France- you could find you owe property tax on both- in France. Spain- has planning laws- which are being fought in European courts- and have been for most of the last 20 years- as developers have rather insidious habits of charging pre-existing property owners, for service provisions to new units- even expropriating ground and other property- with no warning whatsoever.

You *need* to get talking with people on the ground- its very easy to have rose tinted glasses when exploring 'a holiday home in the sun'- and Brits and Irish are reknowned for this.

I'd also be cognisant of Brexit- its entirely possible there may be a glut of holiday homes coming on the market over the next 24 months- as retirees abroad discover they need to come home to access health care and other services- they assumed they'd qualify for in their locations of choice.

Honestly- the more I think about it- the more I'd say- keep your powder dry and don't do anything for the next 2 years- until whats happening with the Brits abroad becomes clearer- you may find some remarkable value in the market when the terms of Brexit become widely known.

CelticRambler

Been there, done that, in two "foreign" countries ... and now living permanently in one of the them.

The first thing you need to do is get your perspective right, and you can't do that sitting in Ireland. So far, you've mentioned Portugal, Spain, Southern France, Normandy and Brittany. Well, just looking at those last three you're talking about six different countries. Brittany is quite different to Normandy (they speak Breton for a start!) and "Southern France" is 700km wide.

Before buying in France, we took advantage of a holiday homes network that I'd (wisely!) invested in when I got my first proper job. That enabled us to try out different regions of France, Italy and Austria (just as holiday destinations at the beginning) and once we'd decided to settle on France, we'd use these places as a base for exploring the regions in more detail.

To cut a three-years-long story short, we found loads of amazing holiday destinations, but for the most part they were just that: places that were only good for a holiday, often bloody awkward to get to, and if the weather isn't right, the place is miserable. I spent two months in Provence at the start of 2016 and even at 2500m in the Alps there wasn't any snow. There was the biting-cold Mistral, though.

The same goes for the "holiday season" - places that can have a great buzz to them in July and August can be completely shuttered for the rest of the year. You need to visit out-of-season to get a better idea of what's really going on. If that suits you, though, I wouldn't be too worried about depriving a local of a cheap house: in most of these towns or villages, the young people aren't interested in sticking around, because there's nothing for them.

And then you need to decide if you really want to be going back to the same place for your holidays for the next ten/twenty/fifty years? I don't! So I live here and go somewhere else for my holidays. :pac:

kupus

Greece. Ill come back later to say why. Maybe somebody can say why in the meantime

The Ging and I

There are for sure challenges in moving to any foreign country which is compounded by not speaking the language.
BUT there are plusses. You stop paying property tax in France if you are resident and 60 years old. You do pay two major taxes as has been mentioned but one of them gets spent in your village/commune. You can have a direct input on this by going to your meetings. 3/4 times a year you will get a statement showing how the money is spent.
The DOE here takes 20 minutes , very casual.
Medicine and hospitals are first class.
Fresh locally grown fruit and veg.
If you have any earnings in Ireland and pay tax there the Tax man here is not interested. If you have Prize bonds where you get tax free winnings on - they will tax you on that.
I have an accountant who looks after all my hate mail, he specialises in expats and is really good value.
Sun most days :-)

cubix

Again thanks for everyone input, alot to think about

Point taking about buying into an area for holidays and feeling you have to use it all the time. Would hope family would get use out of it and possibly consider doing holiday lets until we are ready to pack up for good

CelticRambler

Be careful of assuming too much regarding family. They can get tired of going to the same place too!

As for holiday lets, yes that can work out, but can also be fraught with difficulties, e.g. needing to come over regularly to carry out an inventory/repairs & maintenance, if you don't pay someone local to do that for you (on top of your daily/weekly changeovers); or finding that your best bookings are at exactly the time you want to use it, or that family and friends decide they want to use it for a free holiday and do you out of the several thousands you'd earn from a stranger.

And as you would expect, those properties with the best potential for holiday lets are considerably more expensive than "ordinary" houses/apartments. Once again, doing your research with your feet on the ground is the best way to proceed.

Taxburden carrier

kupus wrote: »

Greece. Ill come back later to say why. Maybe somebody can say why in the meantime

You never did

mankteln

Any recommendations on websites? I've always been intrigued by the prospect of a renovation project abroad..

irishguy

CelticRambler wrote: »

... holiday homes network that I'd (wisely!) invested ..

can you tell me a bit more about this? what was the company how does it actually work etc