BAT (Behavioural Adjustment Training) for pup?

Kash

We have a 15 week old Cane Corso pup. We know she will be a big girl, ~45kg and will be quite strong willed - we've had a Corso x in the past, and she was an awesome dog, but stubborn as a mule (she once chewed through a door she thought should be left open) - so we're eager to set her up for success. We also have young kids and other pets, so we're putting more concentrated effort into training than our last dog, who is relatively well behaved, but not great with strangers. As that is more risky with a Corso, we brought in an external trainer (recommended by the ADPT) for an 'at home' session and signed up for group puppy classes with the same trainer.

We live in the middle of nowhere, so proper socialisation has been hard, though we have brought here everywhere we go, and go places especially so she can meet other dogs and have new experiences in a positive way. We have had no issues at all while out. She recently stayed at a kennel we trust, and the owner said she was great with the other dogs, taking her cue from our older dog. At home, we have had one definite incident yesterday where she chewed on a chicken, wounding it (chicken is doing ok) and one suspected incident where a chicken was killed last week (it could have been a pine martin, or our older dog, but after the second chicken 'attack' my money is on the pup) This is obviously something we are working on, by way of a strong Leave It command and rewards for not reacting to the chickens. We're also keeping beast and fowl as separate as we can, but I have Houdini-level escape artist chooks.

Yesterday attended our first puppy class. Which, in my opinion, was an unmitigated disaster. Our trainer wanted to see how she was with other dogs, so brought her in off leash to introduce her to two 'friendly' dogs, one of whom lunged snarling at Shadow before the door was even open. She had to be removed. The second was friendlier at the beginning, but after the other dog was taken away, started being aggressive too and was also taken away. At that stage, my pup had started barking and lost all signs of play which she usually has with other dogs. When her two classmates arrived, Shadow again went into aggressive mode, barking non-stop, lunging and not breaking eye contact even for the choicest of treats. In the end, we had to do the class from behind a screen so she couldn't see the other dogs. After class, the trainer sent me a video on BAT, recommending it for Shadow to combat fear aggression.

I have never come across BAT before, so was wondering if anyone had any experience with it? It seems to need a BAT trainer, or at the very least, an amenable trigger dog Any other tips on socialising a pup (to other dogs) particularly in rural environments?

Ms Doubtfire1

That totally s****s and , imho is an absolute not to be recommended dog training class for anyone. I would firstly recommend bringing her in contact with
1) a dog of opposite sex
2) same height as she is (not larger or much heavier)
3) a bit older than she is but still playfull.

Go to an area where she can withdraw at any time from the other dog if she feels unsafe...I would not do that under pressure or in any space where she feels enclosed...I have no idea about BAT training but all animals have a flight or fight response and with pups the flight response will always prevail.Give her the option, possible with a very long leash first....

tk123

Is the trainer helping with the BAT/recommending somebody else with more experience or are you on your own? Were the other dogs pups too?

peasant

In my opinion, most puppy classes are a recipe for disaster anyway. Pups are not toddlers and puppy classes aren't kindergarden.
In kindergarden you give toddlers a few years to learn how to become sociable human beings..puppy classes last a few hours during which highly impressionable pups during their most formative time are subjected to unruly behaviour from other pups, stress, anxiety and nervous owners with very little chance to take something good out of it. (some puppy classes are better than others...but once a pup becomes spooked/frightened/unruly, the undoing is so much harder)

In my experience, large breeds are slow learners (not stupid...they just take a bit more time to digest it all) and not really suited to learning together with excitable and oh so clever smallies.

Some of what you do seems to work quite well

Kash wrote: »

... We have had no issues at all while out. She recently stayed at a kennel we trust, and the owner said she was great with the other dogs, taking her cue from our older dog.

If i were you, I'd let the older dog continue teaching the doggy rules, you continue taking her out meeting friendly people (to work on the good with strangers bit) keep her away from the chickens and otherwise ditch the puppy classes and dial down the stress you're putting her and yourself under.

An older dog to take her cues from is half the work already done, you only have to work out the finer points.

tk123

My experience of puppy hour a few months ago.. - puppies grouped by confidence level
- any unruly behaviour was interrupted
- any barking etc that was frightening another pup was interrupted
- owners given instructions/guidance before during and after play explaining what was happening, what they needed to do eg in my friend's case call the pup back if play got too rough etc etc


This was in Dublin though in a well run training centre with experienced trainers so not small group like the OP was in!

Kash

Thank you. I wasn't sure if I was over-reacting, but this BAT thing seemed over the top. While it looks to be a pretty positive training method, it seems to be for strongly established behaviors or 'problem' dogs. And my hound is only a pup, I don't think any behaviour is established yet!!

Thank you for the tips. I sent an email to the trainer expressing my concern. I do feel that she is a good trainer, everyone says so from my vet, to the kennel owner to our local wildlife rescuer and ex-dog trainer. Maybe I don't understand BAT properly, so could be picking it up all wrong.

This is the hell-hound btw

peasant

She's gorgeous!

I'd agree with your sentiment...at fifteen weeks your pupster is a blank canvas and while she needs training (like any pup), I don't see the need for anything specialised (yet).

The most important thing is establishing a routine (where, when, what) which is best done by example (and actually sticking to the routine yourself) and the house rules (i.e. no chasing of chickens etc).
Doggy do's and dont's will be taught be the older dog (just make sure that existing bad habits are not transferred) and as far as socialisation goes...I'd go for quality over quantity. A nice meet with people, children, cows, horses, cars (whatever) once is preferable to lots of uncontrolled exposure under pressure (In other words ...nothing wrong with a rural environement)
It's summertime ... bring the pup along to a few events ...country shows ..that kind of thing. Expose her to adults, children, noises, animals etc. Just be prepared to leave when it gets too much for her. As long as you and her are relaxed and enjoying yourselves the learning will happen all by itself.

This is Benno (now three and 10 stone) at age 14 weeks during "puppy class".

He grew up with three older dogs (one missing in the pic). Basically what happened was they all pinched him once (when he rolled in here like he owned the place) and after that he showed them all due respect and never a "bad word" again. He learned a lot of basic dog-manners from them...we had nothing to with that and to this day he respects his elders even though he clearly is the biggest and strongest of them all by now.

mymo

Sorry for off topic but peasant is that a beardie and an OES or cross?
I love shaggy dogs.
Benno is cute too, Dane or Bernese in there?

I also think your dog is too young for anything other than careful socialisation, we live rural and it took a lot of effort with ours (much smaller) to get them well socialised. Try for as many situations as you can, keep them brief and positive, and build things up.

peasant

yepp, Bearded Collie, OES X (not sure with what) and Lab X St. Bernard

tk123

Kash wrote: »

Thank you. I wasn't sure if I was over-reacting, but this BAT thing seemed over the top. While it looks to be a pretty positive training method, it seems to be for strongly established behaviors or 'problem' dogs. And my hound is only a pup, I don't think any behaviour is established yet!!

She's lovely I have a fearful dog so don't count on behaviours not being established. Your textbook socialisation period ends in a week with some behaviourists now citing that the socialisation period actually ends sooner(!)

Playing devils advocate here but would a trainer recommend BAT without a good reason? It's easy to diagnose the problem online without seeing the dog in question. I'd talk to the trainer and ask why they're suggesting it and what they think the potential problem is. BUT.. again I'm in the city so it's inevitable for us to bump into other dogs so socialisation from day one was vital for us - especially with dogs who don't like my two :rolleyes: They were exposed to the snarling and ankle biting early on so they know to ignore it and not react.

A friend got a pup a few months ago and from day one I had major alarm bells and offered some advise but was shot down - their dog who had died before they got the pup was older than my two so naturally that made my friend more 'experienced'.. When really she had experience in years but is completely out of touch(!) Pup is still the same and hasn't grown out of the problem behaviours and won't imo. I just bite my tongue now when something crazy is happening and take in the madness! haha