Warranty on supposedly serviced used car

lolo62

Hi. I just bought a Ford fiesta a couple of weeks ago and am having problems. Would appreciate some advice.
It's 2008 76,000 miles on the clock, from a forecourt with timing belt and water pump new included in the price. It was advertised full serviced. Because I was getting the timing belt included the warranty was reduced from 3 months to 1 month.
I also asked for 2 new tyres as two were worn and they said no, timing belt was it. I asked them to put the two good tyres on the front which they did.

Have had the car 3 weeks and fron day 1 I noticed a shudder that wasn't there when test driving. Have looked into this it seems timing belt is loose so that will be taken care of when I bring it back.
Two other issues that literally started day 1 are screeching brakes and knocking at low speeds. The knocking has gotten worse and now the steering seems a bit funny. Have looked into this and I'm thinking bushes?
There's so a brake light gone. For some reason the brakes didn't screech test driving either because it was raining that day..

I'm bringing the car over on Tuesday but would like to know where I stand on these issues...
If the car was fully serviced then shouldn't the brakes be sound?
If there was an issue with the bushes shouldn't that have been brought to my attention (if the car was serviced at all) and given there was no knocking when I test drove and it only appeared after the tyres were changed around, haven't they a responsibility to make sure there is no fault there?

The strange thing about the knocking, it only started when I picked up a friend and he got in the car. I drove away from the dealership and there was no sound

Toyotafanboi

"Fully serviced" is a loose term and it gets looser the cheaper the car gets, on a car worth less than €5k, fully serviced means an oil change and a safety check in most instances, whether that be right or wrong.

They want to make sure that the car has no critical/ dangerous faults that will create a liability onto themselves and do the bare minimum of a service to get a stamp in the book and sticker on the window.

You went in looking to buy the car, unfortunately with dealers retailing cars this old, you need to be prepared to know your facts and what to look for or to bring a mechanic to look at it for you. The dealer will never say to you "we done a splash and dash oil change, we noticed it needs a few suspension bushes and the tyres only have about 2mm tread left but nobody will be killed so we're going to let it go as is", simply because you wouldn't buy it.

You also need to be prepared for the warranty to be not worth the paper it's written on, because a lot of times, it isn't. If your Fiesta was €5000 for example, the probably paid around €2.5 - €3k for it. They are in the business of flipping cars for quick handy money and they want to make money, they won't make anything if they fully service, fit 2x tyres, replace timing belt, brakes and anything else showing some degree of wear and then give a decent warranty on a 3k car and sell it for 5k.

I'm not saying all that to beat you up about it OP, but it's important now that you understand what you are dealing with. You did but a car from a dealer and as such you expect it to be roadworthy and safe.

The timing belt being loose sounds like complete BS. However you cannot reasonably expect them to take care of rattles, knocks, vibrations or squeaks associated with wear and tear on a car of that vintage IMO. What you can expect is if there are any issues with how the engine runs or how the basic controls operate that they will be fixed.

With a 4 week warranty you really only have one stab at this, so you need to get it right first time as much as they do. You want the engine shaking issue sorted (within your rights). You want a brake light bulb fitted (easy). Your brakes are squeaking, this can often be caused by excess dust building up around the calliper and pads, it sounds like this is the case with you as it went away in the rain, if your brakes have plenty of friction material left they likely won't do anything about this, but even if the friction material is low they may not do anything. Similarly play in suspension components as a result of wear and tear is something you will expect on a 9 year old car so if there is some movement but not a dangerous amount they probably won't action your knocking noise either.

You may want to get an independent second opinion on the whole car for your peace of mind sake. It may not be a bad car either by any means.

Edit: that's a big reply for a Sunday morning.

lolo62

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

"Fully serviced" is a loose term and it gets looser the cheaper the car gets, on a car worth less than €5k, fully serviced means an oil change and a safety check in most instances, whether that be right or wrong.

They want to make sure that the car has no critical/ dangerous faults that will create a liability onto themselves and do the bare minimum of a service to get a stamp in the book and sticker on the window.

You went in looking to buy the car, unfortunately with dealers retailing cars this old, you need to be prepared to know your facts and what to look for or to bring a mechanic to look at it for you. The dealer will never say to you "we done a splash and dash oil change, we noticed it needs a few suspension bushes and the tyres only have about 2mm tread left but nobody will be killed so we're going to let it go as is", simply because you wouldn't buy it.

You also need to be prepared for the warranty to be not worth the paper it's written on, because a lot of times, it isn't. If your Fiesta was €5000 for example, the probably paid around €2.5 - €3k for it. They are in the business of flipping cars for quick handy money and they want to make money, they won't make anything if they fully service, fit 2x tyres, replace timing belt, brakes and anything else showing some degree of wear and then give a decent warranty on a 3k car and sell it for 5k.

I'm not saying all that to beat you up about it OP, but it's important now that you understand what you are dealing with. You did but a car from a dealer and as such you expect it to be roadworthy and safe.

The timing belt being loose sounds like complete BS. However you cannot reasonably expect them to take care of rattles, knocks, vibrations or squeaks associated with wear and tear on a car of that vintage IMO. What you can expect is if there are any issues with how the engine runs or how the basic controls operate that they will be fixed.

With a 4 week warranty you really only have one stab at this, so you need to get it right first time as much as they do. You want the engine shaking issue sorted (within your rights). You want a brake light bulb fitted (easy). Your brakes are squeaking, this can often be caused by excess dust building up around the calliper and pads, it sounds like this is the case with you as it went away in the rain, if your brakes have plenty of friction material left they likely won't do anything about this, but even if the friction material is low they may not do anything. Similarly play in suspension components as a result of wear and tear is something you will expect on a 9 year old car so if there is some movement but not a dangerous amount they probably won't action your knocking noise either.

You may want to get an independent second opinion on the whole car for your peace of mind sake. It may not be a bad car either by any means.

Edit: that's a big reply for a Sunday morning.

Thank you I appreciate your lengthy reply and for not beating me up!

The knocking sound is nearly constant especially in 2nd and 3Rd gear driving and the wheel pulls to the left going over some bumps. There are also some random small movements in the steering while driving and braking so I'm worried it's now a safety issue.

I had a bad experience last time I bought private so thought this time I'd go to a dealer as if it comes 'fully serviced' it will need nothing done to it. I now understand this was naive.

I paid €3750 including timing belt and water pump with 1 month warranty so don't think I paid too much. It's just if there was no play in suspension components because the worn tyres compensated when I test drove then there was a hidden fault no? Surely changing the tyres around shouldn't cause constant knocking on a new car?
I suppose they could argue that I can't prove it was changing the tyres that made the problem manifest. But I would just be surprised any dealer tried to give me back a car they sold me 3 weeks ago with no repair done on a worn part that causes loose steering wheel and random wheel movements!

me_right_one

Constant knocking sounds to me like a CV joint. They should definitely cover you for that on the warranty IMO

lolo62

me_right_one wrote: »

Constant knocking sounds to me like a CV joint. They should definitely cover you for that on the warranty IMO

Thanks would cv joint affect steering also?

me_right_one

lolo62 wrote: »

Thanks would cv joint affect steering also?

Yes. But I doubt different tyres would make any difference, you were probably just unlucky that it started AFTER you left the forecourt. Its not a safety issue, but its a reasonably major mechanical issue. Is it like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0pEp3yVS4o

The garage should replace it IMO. But they'll probably try and tell you its not covered by the warranty due to wear and tear, although it probably wouldnt be too expensive a job to pay for yourself if you really like the car.

lolo62

me_right_one wrote: »

Yes. But I doubt different tyres would make any difference, you were probably just unlucky that it started AFTER you left the forecourt. Its not a safety issue, but its a reasonably major mechanical issue. Is it like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0pEp3yVS4o

The garage should replace it IMO. But they'll probably try and tell you its not covered by the warranty due to wear and tear, although it probably wouldnt be too expensive a job to pay for yourself if you really like the car.

It sounds exactly like that just slower. The knocking seems faster in that video
It's reassuring to know it's not too expensive to fix so thanks for that. I do like the car just don't feel as confident about it now as when I decided to buy, but I guess there's no such thing as a perfect car.
Hopefully they'll do the repair since its so soon but if not maybe I can haggle them to split it with me or something. Not too confident in their mechanic if the timing belt is loose though. They mostly specialise in big fast cars so maybe he's not used to fiestas.

bazz26

If they just switched the back tyres to the front then it's very possible the tyres need rebalancing. Any tyre centre will be able to rebalance the tyres for you.

Also what's the point in buying a car from a dealer with only a 1 month warranty? Just seems nuts to me paying dealer prices for a car of that age for such a short peace of mind.

lolo62

bazz26 wrote: »

If they just switched the back tyres to the front then it's very possible the tyres need rebalancing. Any tyre centre will be able to rebalance the tyres for you.

Also what's the point in buying a car from a dealer with only a 1 month warranty? Just seems nuts to me paying dealer prices for a car of that age for such a short peace of mind.

The tyres were worn on one side not the back. The warranty was reduced from 3 months when they agreed to the timing belt and water pump change.

I assumed if you buy from a dealer you get a better car than buying private because of laws, consumer rights etc.

bazz26

My point is that dealers selling cars of that age/price range have a smaller profit margin to work with because the car is only worth x amount. They are not going to spend much money on making the car resalable if it eats into their profit margin. The warranty they sell with the car also costs them money. They all come out of the dealer's profit margin while the car still only sells for it's market value.

You bought it at a set price but got a new timing belt and water pump changed. That still cost the dealer money so he had to reduce the warranty period to offset his reduced profit on the car. New tyres would also have cost the dealer money which obviously would have reduced the profit they needed to make on selling the car at the price they sold it to you at so I can see why did would not agree to it. Servicing comes out of the dealer's profit margin too. So the more you want the dealer to do prior to selling the car to you just reduced the warranty period that the dealer sets on the car at that selling price point. This is why it very rarely makes sense to buy cars of this age from dealers imo.

lolo62

bazz26 wrote: »

My point is that dealers selling cars of that age/price range have a smaller profit margin to work with because the car is only worth x amount. They are not going to spend much money on making the car resalable if it eats into their profit margin. The warranty they sell with the car also costs them money. They all come out of the dealer's profit margin while the car still only sells for it's market value.

You bought it at a set price but got a new timing belt and water pump changed. That still cost the dealer money so he had to reduce the warranty period to offset his reduced profit on the car. New tyres would also have cost the dealer money which obviously would have reduced the profit they needed to make on selling the car at the price they sold it to you at so I can see why did would not agree to it. Servicing comes out of the dealer's profit margin too. So the more you want the dealer to do prior to selling the car to you just reduced the warranty period that the dealer sets on the car at that selling price point. This is why it very rarely makes sense to buy cars of this age from dealers imo.

Fair enough. But you seem to be in the know. I'm not. It has a lot of specs for a fiesta and the mileage seemed decent for the age. Most cars elsewhere including privately were priced similarly but I was able to get a new timing belt and water pump with this. If I decide to sell it in a year or two the receipt for that will have some value. So I tried to be savvy! But I'm a music teacher not a mechanic so feel like I'm on a another planet when dealing with mechanics, car sales reps etc. I amn't looking at buying a car from the dealer's perspective and how his profits are worked out etc, only my perspective as a consumer.

Also if they don't want to put money into making a car resealable then maybe they shouldn't be selling it?

bazz26

But this is how these businesses work, dealers are not charities - preparing a car for resale costs them money too. The older and lower market value of the car the less a dealer is going to spend on it to resell it. If you want the dealer to fully service the car, put brand new tyres on it, new timing belt/water pump and 3 months warranty then you would have paid over 4k for it which a 9 year old Fiesta is not worth.

And I did mention this to you in your other thread about buying the Fiesta:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=103640963

Just because you buy a car from a dealer does not mean that all cars are prepared for resale the same way.

bazz26

lolo62 wrote: »

Fair enough. But you seem to be in the know. I'm not. It has a lot of specs for a fiesta and the mileage seemed decent for the age. Most cars elsewhere including privately were priced similarly but I was able to get a new timing belt and water pump with this. If I decide to sell it in a year or two the receipt for that will have some value. So I tried to be savvy! But I'm a music teacher not a mechanic so feel like I'm on a another planet when dealing with mechanics, car sales reps etc. I amn't looking at buying a car from the dealer's perspective and how his profits are worked out etc, only my perspective as a consumer.

Also if they don't want to put money into making a car resealable then maybe they shouldn't be selling it?

You just proved my point - if a private seller is looking for similar money then you may have had to pay for a service, new timing belt yourself. How do you expect a dealer to make a profit from selling a car to you at the same price?

lolo62

bazz26 wrote: »

But this is how these businesses work, dealers are not charities - preparing a car for resale costs them money too. The older and lower market value of the car the less a dealer is going to spend on it to resell it. If you want the dealer to fully service the car, put brand new tyres on it, new timing belt/water pump and 3 months warranty then you would have paid over 4k for it which a 9 year old Fiesta is not worth.

And I did mention this to you in your other thread about buying the Fiesta:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=103640963

Just because you buy a car from a dealer does not mean that all cars are prepared for resale the same way.

I didn't want the dealer to fully service the car. It was advertised as being so.
I was happy to leave the tyres.
I was also happy with a 1 month warranty.

What I'm not happy are the following, I did mention them earlier in this thread; constant knocking sound, loose steering and screeching brakes 3 weeks in.

lolo62

bazz26 wrote: »

You just proved my point - if a private seller is looking for similar money then you may have had to pay for a service, new timing belt yourself. How do you expect a dealer to make a profit from selling a car to you at the same price?

I don't care about his profit. Why would I? I'm a consumer not a business owner. If he needs to put the price up to sell a car with no faults and still make a profit then that's what he should do.

bazz26

It's not about being a business owner, it's about being a smart buyer. If a dealer can sell a car at similar prices to private sellers while making a profit then you have to ask how? It's not rocket science or some sort of insider secret.

Anyway I've made my point so I'm done.

lolo62

bazz26 wrote: »

It's not about being a business owner, it's about being a smart buyer. If a dealer can sell a car at similar prices to private sellers while making a profit then you have to ask how?

Anyway I've made you point so I'm done.

I think I was smart. I got a 9 year old ford fiesta with decent mileage new timing belt and water pump for 3750. They are great cars.
The fact that the dealer didn't do the minimum to the car he was supposed to isn't my error it's his.
That's my point.