Street light charging

huggs2

The future is looking good for on street charging

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKaEhBjt1ls

Dardania

Great for city runabouts in old residential areas without driveways...

ED E

Just came to post that. Now to convince Ecars/DCC to get to it.

listermint

Super idea tbh. And also makes DCC revenue . Win win for everyone.

goz83

Could they not have made the cable block smaller? It's the size of a small window ledge! Great idea though using lamp posts.

oinkely

there's a lamppost in the car park in my local tesco express with a blue 16A connector in the base. Always thought it would be handy for someone nearby to get a sneaky charge!

ELM327

oinkely wrote: »

there's a lamppost in the car park in my local tesco express with a blue 16A connector in the base. Always thought it would be handy for someone nearby to get a sneaky charge!

Why can't they put that everywhere lol

huggs2

I look forward to when they start installing these units everywhere.

BoatMad

huggs2 wrote: »

I look forward to when they start installing these units everywhere.

Most lamp poles in Ireland are placed at the inside edge of the foot path to avoid crash hazard

Not suitable for EV charging

ELM327

BoatMad wrote: »

Most lamp poles in Ireland are placed at the inside edge of the foot path to avoid crash hazard

Not suitable for EV charging

Most cars include fossil engines placed at the front of the car. Not suitable for electrification.

Or for additional (semi related) mumbling, most lamp poles at one time contained kerosene lamps or arc lighting, not suitable for modern day usage.

bk

BoatMad wrote: »

Most lamp poles in Ireland are placed at the inside edge of the foot path to avoid crash hazard

Not suitable for EV charging

Looks out window, sees that the lamp posts outside my home are out the road edge of the footpath, perfectly placed next to the cars

Took a 30 minute walk around the neighbourhood. Some streets on the inside, some on the outside. But I'd say roughly 70% are on the outside.

Also took a quick look on Google Maps at Bray and Dun Laoghaire

From what I can make out, busy main roads have them set back, while quieter local residential roads (where you would want to charge anyway) mostly have them roadside.

So while not a solution for every lamp post, seems like a great solution for many.

bk

Seems like a really smart solution. In the video they claim it costs 1/10th the cost of a SCP!

That makes sense since it is much simpler:
- No planning permission required (can be a big cost)
- No civils required
- No extra electrical engineering required
- No extra pole required, just use the light pole. Seemingly takes just 30 minutes to install.
- Seems to be very simple socket, no comms, etc. The comms stuff is in the cable itself.

When a customer orders one, they actually install three in the customers neighbourhood! The idea being that they might as well as they are there (remember even 3 cost 30% of one SCP), giving the customer more options and maybe neighbours will sign up.

They also have options for walls (car parks, etc.) and for plinths for BoatMads situation where the electric pole isn't suitable.

Yes, a plinth would be more expensive as it would require civils, planning, etc. However I expect still cheaper then an SCP as no comms etc. in it and it certainly looks WAY neater and thinner then our SCP's.

Overall seems like a very smart product. Much better thought out then SCP's * Kind of more like the car heater plugs you see in Alaska.

* The one advantage of the SCP's is that they are big and noticeable, which can actually be a bonus as it gets people thinknig about EV's and makes them aware that EV infrastructure is in place. However as EV's become more widespread, cheaper, more hidden solutions like these will be needed.

ELM327

I really cannot find a logical reason that this does not become commonplace.
I watched the video when it was shared from Fully Charged, and have re-watched a couple of times aswell.

Alun

What about the capacity of the wiring circuit the lamp posts are on? I.e. what wiring is in place and how many of these CP's would a typical group of lamp posts (assuming that a number of them all feed off the one supply) be able to support?

ELM327

They said in the film that the Cp made use of the excess capacity saved by switching the lamps to LED lights. Therefore (as I understand it) there is no capacity issue.

bk

Alun wrote: »

What about the capacity of the wiring circuit the lamp posts are on? I.e. what wiring is in place and how many of these CP's would a typical group of lamp posts (assuming that a number of them all feed off the one supply) be able to support?

Seems to be one plug per post (though maybe more are possible). The point that they make is that as street lights are converted to LED, that frees up a lot of power which then can be used for charging cars.

bk

BTW this is what car heater plugs look like in Alaska, though many other alternatives too:



The interesting thing about Alaska, is that it shows when something becomes necessary, it quickly becomes pretty standard and widespread.

unkel

ELM327 wrote: »

They said in the film that the Cp made use of the excess capacity saved by switching the lamps to LED lights. Therefore (as I understand it) there is no capacity issue.

I'd like to see some figures here. I find it very hard to believe this is the case. I doubt the old lamps were a lot more than say 1kW. You can't charge a car on that.

unkel

Aye that is now, but how much power were the old style bulbs? With a saving of say 90%, it would have been 1500W max. Not enough to even charge 1 EV

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

I'd like to see some figures here. I find it very hard to believe this is the case. I doubt the old lamps were a lot more than say 1kW. You can't charge a car on that.

You can, just slowly!
Any juice is good juice as long as you're not waiting for it! #BjornNyland

unkel

I don't agree. Why would you charge your car for 8 hours overnight, only to have gained 8kWh (or EUR0.50 at night rates)

We need some real solutions for people who don't have their own private parking and charge point. Not this Mickey Mouse stuff.

goz83

While the lights are only using a few watts, the wiring is still capable of delivering a lot more. The linked site says that the street lights use the same wiring that is run into the domestic house supply. So while I might be able to run a shower, some computers, charge an EV and boil the kettle while while listening to some heavy metal....I can also have all appliances turned off, bar a single LED bedside lamp. The usage does not always equal the availability.

unkel

You might be right, but I haven't seen figures yet. And their main argument that the availability is there because the bulb uses less power, has just been all but debunked.

ELM327

I disagree that it has all been debunked.
Does that mean that if at my house all that is plugged in is my TV, that there is no more power available to plug something else in? Of course there is. There's 63A available.

goz83

unkel wrote: »

You might be right, but I haven't seen figures yet. And their main argument that the availability is there because the bulb uses less power, has just been all but debunked.

It's probably why you wouldn't be installing on every lamp post. Maybe every 10, or 15 and then that would make the sums more palatable.

ELM327

My first question for the company involved is "what is the actual spare capacity per lamp"
If it's 500w per pillar, for instance, then you could install prorated 1 every 6-7 and not use any additional power.

unkel

ELM327 wrote: »

There's 63A available.

Per lamp post? Any link?

The fact that they came up with the argument that the energy saved by using a low energy bulb can power an EV is clearly misleading, which doesn't instill confidence in the whole project's viability

I like the idea, but not if it is pie in the sky. We need to be open minded in all things EV, but at the same time very critical too, or we won't be helping anyone here...

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

Per lamp post? Any link?

The fact that they came up with the argument that the energy saved by using a low energy bulb can power an EV is clearly misleading, which doesn't instill confidence in the whole project's viability

I like the idea, but not if it is pie in the sky. We need to be open minded in all things EV, but at the same time very critical too, or we won't be helping anyone here...

Sorry, in my example of a house, there was spare 63A.

I'm asking the question what is the spare capacity at each lamp, as opposed to what is currently used. EG the difference between MIC and mean demand.

Obviously the idea doesnt work if you're only supplying a few hundred watts. but even 2-3 kW can charge a fair amount as a destination charger. I know. because my "home charger" is 2.2kW!

KCross

unkel wrote: »

Per lamp post? Any link?

The fact that they came up with the argument that the energy saved by using a low energy bulb can power an EV is clearly misleading, which doesn't instill confidence in the whole project's viability

I like the idea, but not if it is pie in the sky. We need to be open minded in all things EV, but at the same time very critical too, or we won't be helping anyone here...

https://www.esbnetworks.ie/new-connections/unmetered-connections/unmetered-public-lighting-(less-than-2kva)


From that I'd say the max you can draw is 2kW less what the bulb is taking. Its less than a granny charger.

However, maybe the wiring to the pole can take more than 2kW and since it would be metered and billable the ESBn might be willing to deliver more power to it. Only someone from the ESB can actually answer that question. We're just guessing.

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

https://www.esbnetworks.ie/new-connections/unmetered-connections/unmetered-public-lighting-(less-than-2kva)


From that I'd say the max you can draw is 2kW less what the bulb is taking. Its less than a granny charger.

However, maybe the wiring to the pole can take more than 2kW and since it would be metered and billable the ESBn might be willing to deliver more power to it. Only someone from the ESB can actually answer that question. We're just guessing.

That's what I'm guessing.
Even if it's only 2kW per pole, that's not far off the 2.2-2.4 I get from my granny cable.
2kW for 10 hours is 20kW (less AC losses) so not insubstantial as a destination charger.

oppenheimer1

Public lighting is fused for 6A and wired with 2.5mm2 stranded cable.

Its another half baked idea. Proper dedicated charging infrastructure needs to be built, not this kind of rubbish. Significant engineering works would be required to convert poles to chargers.

unkel

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Public lighting is fused for 6A and wired with 2.5mm2 stranded cable.

Any link?

If it is, and I suspect you might be right, the whole idea is a complete and utter waste of time.

KCross

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Public lighting is fused for 6A and wired with 2.5mm2 stranded cable.

Its another half baked idea. Proper dedicated charging infrastructure needs to be built, not this kind of rubbish. Significant engineering works would be required to convert poles to chargers.

No reason why they couldn't supply 3kW through 2.5mm2 cable though?
A fuse is easily swapped.

This idea isn't to replace other infrastructure. Its to help those with on street parking. Its a good idea if the poles are in the right place and they can supply the current required. 3kW for, say, 10hrs, would be plenty for most people.

On the engineering works... the whole premise of their idea is that there is very little engineering site works. You replace the access door and wire it up and thats it! All the other smarts are in the cable.

oppenheimer1

unkel wrote: »

Any link?

If it is, and I suspect you might be right, the whole idea is a complete and utter waste of time.

http://www.dlrcoco.ie/sites/default/files/atoms/files/dlr_public_lighting_guide_may_2015.pdf

The 5A fuse in the diagram contradicts the 6A requirement given in the text.

All the councils guidance would be pretty similar. Interesting to note that the public lighting circuit is also fused for 15A so even if the cables were able to take a larger current to the lamp standard, charging would only be possible for 1 car and during daylight hours only.

This is a non-runner.

KCross

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Interesting to note that the public lighting circuit is also fused for 15A so even if the cables were able to take a larger current to the lamp standard, charging would only be possible for 1 car and during daylight hours only.

This is a non-runner.

Why is it a non-runner? If they can deliver 15A to the post it is very much a runner. Please explain why its a non-runner.

oppenheimer1

KCross wrote: »

Why is it a non-runner? If they can deliver 15A to the post it is very much a runner. Please explain why its a non-runner.

Because the cables between the lamp and the pillar are not sized by a council standard, but according to the size of demand and length of the circuit. Given that these solutions are generally engineered there is unlikely to be much spare capacity (outside of factors of safety) available in the cables. No engineer is going to have oversized the public lighting circuit cables in anticipation of EV charging unless they were told to.

The capacity isn't in the lighting circuit to charge cars as well as provide lighting.

KCross

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Because the cables between the lamp and the pillar are not sized by a council standard, but according to the size of demand and length of the circuit. Given that these solutions are generally engineered there is unlikely to be much spare capacity (outside of factors of safety) available in the cables. No engineer is going to have oversized the public lighting circuit cables in anticipation of EV charging unless they were told to.

The capacity isn't in the lighting circuit to charge cars as well as provide lighting.

My understanding is that it would be tapping into the incoming supply not running through the same circuit as the lamp. Clearly that wouldn't work.

The only thing that matters then in that case is what is the max that that incoming cable can take (15A for a 2.5mm2 cable) and how much of that is spare for EV charging. The lamp probably takes less than 100W. There is plenty spare capacity there and you just fuse it right so that the combined load of both doesn't overload the cable.

Sounds do-able to me and if it is actually on the ground running in the UK why would we be any different?

oppenheimer1

KCross wrote: »

My understanding is that it would be tapping into the incoming supply not running through the same circuit as the lamp. Clearly that wouldn't work.

The only thing that matters then in that case is what is the max that that incoming cable can take (15A for a 2.5mm2 cable) and how much of that is spare for EV charging. The lamp probably takes less than 100W. There is plenty spare capacity there and you just fuse it right so that the combined load of both doesn't overload the cable.

Sounds do-able to me and if it is actually on the ground running in the UK why would we be any different?

Thats exactly my point. Given that public lighting circuits between the pillar and the standard are designed by an electrical engineer for the anticipated load they are unlikely to have oversized sufficiently to allow EV charging as well. It would be street lights or charging not both at the same time.

If it was the case, ECars would have put chargers on lamp standards.

KCross

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Thats exactly my point. Given that public lighting circuits between the pillar and the standard are designed by an electrical engineer for the anticipated load they are unlikely to have oversized sufficiently to allow EV charging as well. It would be street lights or charging not both at the same time.

If it was the case, ECars would have put chargers on lamp standards.

Sorry, I don't understand your point.

You have proven that the incoming cable is 2.5mm2. That can take 15A (3.4kW).

I don't understand your response as to why that can't be split between the lamp and the EV at the same time. The lamp only needs a small fraction of that 3.4kW, the rest can be for the EV. Are you allowing for the fact that you can tap off a supply before the lamp circuit? No reason why that can't be done.

Either you are missing something or I am but I can't see why this doesn't work and clearly it does since its a real product already out there.

KCross

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

If it was the case, ECars would have put chargers on lamp standards.

eCars focussed on SCP's(22kW) and FCP's(50kW) which serve a different purpose. This lamp post idea is for home charging not rapid or destination charging.

oppenheimer1

KCross wrote: »

Sorry, I don't understand your point.

You have proven that the incoming cable is 2.5mm2. That can take 15A (3.4kW).

I don't understand your response as to why that can't be split between the lamp and the EV at the same time. The lamp only needs a small fraction of that 3.4kW, the rest can be for the EV.

Either you are missing something or I am but I can't see why this doesn't work and clearly it does since its a real product already out there.

I have not said the incoming cable is 2.5mm2, that is the internal cable in the lamp standard.

The size of the cable between the mini pillar and the lamp standard is determined by an electrical engineer based on anticipated load and distance. This will not have been sized to allow for EV charging also.

It is possible this may work on older streetscapes without a dedicated PL circuit. i.e. public lighting takes a direct supply from the LV cable serving nearby homes and businesses.

KCross

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Public lighting is fused for 6A and wired with 2.5mm2 stranded cable.

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I have not said the incoming cable is 2.5mm2, that is the internal cable in the lamp standard.

The size of the cable between the mini pillar and the lamp standard is determined by an electrical engineer based on anticipated load and distance. This will not have been sized to allow for EV charging also.

Your first response wasn't specific about it being internal wiring only so we are both guessing as to what the cable is between the pillar and the pole. You ruled the whole idea out as a non-runner without knowing that.

Lets restate the case then.... IF the cable from the pillar to pole is 2.5mm2 would you agree it is a workable solution then?

Again, I'd state, why does it work in the UK? Are they over spec'ing in the UK but Paddy is too cute!

oppenheimer1

KCross wrote: »

Your first response wasn't specific about it being internal wiring only so we are both guessing as to what the cable is between the pillar and the pole. You ruled the whole idea out as a non-runner without knowing that.

Lets restate the case then.... IF the cable from the pillar to pole is 2.5mm2 would you agree it is a workable solution then?

Again, I'd state, why does it work in the UK? Are they over spec'ing in the UK but Paddy is too cute!

It's not that simple. All we know is that the cable from the pillar to standard is sized to provide 6A at 230V. The diameter of the cable between the pillar and standard depends on the length of the run ( it's why you need a heavier cable if your EVSE is a long distance from the distribution board). Granny charging would require 10A at the base of the standard in addition to lighting demand.

As I said it might work on older streetscapes where there is no dedicated lighting circuit but a direct feed from local LV supply.

KCross

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

It's not that simple. All we know is that the cable from the pillar to standard is sized to provide 6A at 230V. The diameter of the cable between the pillar and standard depends on the length of the run ( it's why you need a heavier cable if your EVSE is a long distance from the distribution board). Granny charging would require 10A at the base of the standard in addition to lighting demand.

I agree with that. It boils down to, we don't know.

But it shouldn't be classed as a non-runner.

Every council and every installation is likely to be different in this country and also depending on when the lamp post was installed. If it is an old install using less efficient lamps it ironically might be better suited as more power was required for those.

oppenheimer1

KCross wrote: »

I agree with that. It boils down to, we don't know.

But it shouldn't be classed as a non-runner.

Every council and every installation is likely to be different in this country and also depending on when the lamp post was installed. If it is an old install using less efficient lamps it ironically might be better suited as more power was required for those.

The old orange sodium lamp was 70W or there abouts iirc. There is unlikely to be huge capacity available unless it's on a non dedicated lighting circuit.

BoatMad

bk wrote: »

Seems like a really smart solution. In the video they claim it costs 1/10th the cost of a SCP!

That makes sense since it is much simpler:
- No planning permission required (can be a big cost)
- No civils required
- No extra electrical engineering required
- No extra pole required, just use the light pole. Seemingly takes just 30 minutes to install.
- Seems to be very simple socket, no comms, etc. The comms stuff is in the cable itself.

When a customer orders one, they actually install three in the customers neighbourhood! The idea being that they might as well as they are there (remember even 3 cost 30% of one SCP), giving the customer more options and maybe neighbours will sign up.

They also have options for walls (car parks, etc.) and for plinths for BoatMads situation where the electric pole isn't suitable.

Yes, a plinth would be more expensive as it would require civils, planning, etc. However I expect still cheaper then an SCP as no comms etc. in it and it certainly looks WAY neater and thinner then our SCP's.

Overall seems like a very smart product. Much better thought out then SCP's * Kind of more like the car heater plugs you see in Alaska.

* The one advantage of the SCP's is that they are big and noticeable, which can actually be a bonus as it gets people thinknig about EV's and makes them aware that EV infrastructure is in place. However as EV's become more widespread, cheaper, more hidden solutions like these will be needed.

Authorities will not designate lots of street space to EVs. , streetside charging is utterly non scalable and will be unnecessary as range grows

bk

BoatMad wrote: »

Authorities will not designate lots of street space to EVs. , streetside charging is utterly non scalable and will be unnecessary as range grows

If you watch the video, they make the point that they don't designate street space for EV charging. They just install three chargers for everyone ordered and hope that will be enough for the EV owner to find a space amongst them when they arrive home.

On-street overnight charging is absolutely necessary for EV's to be successful. People who live in homes with only on-street parking won't want to go to sit at a fast charger for 30+ minutes every couple of days!

I would never buy an EV if I couldn't charge overnight and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone who couldn't (unless you have work charging).

Also I don't see any technical reason why it can't scale. If every parking space in Alaska can have a plug point, no reason why this wouldn't come the norm for EV's too.

Frankly it has too or EV's will never replace ICE!

unkel

bk wrote: »

People who live in homes with only on-street parking won't want to go to sit at a fast charger for 30+ minutes every couple of days!

You and others in here aren't very forward thinking

In a few years time, you'd only have to charge for 5 minutes at an FCP to give you plenty of range. Exactly like today with petrol or diesel.

Even cheap supermarkets are now installing FCP paid from their own private money, free to use for their customers while they do a quick grocery shop (for 15-30 minutes). Bring that on, that is the way forward. Public slow charge points are a thing of the past.

ted1

Couple of issues:
Who pays for the electricity? You are going to need to charge for it somehow.

Your going to unbalance your loads at the traffo.

What's the max charge current?

But my biggest concern and I'm seen it become an issue in offices were they installed chargers is that the cable is a trip hazard, for public charging to become really main stream. They are going to have to resolve this , either from overhead or ground to car

unkel

ted1 wrote: »

my biggest concern and I'm seen it become an issue in offices were they installed chargers is that the cable is a trip hazard, for public charging to become really main stream. They are going to have to resolve this , either from overhead or ground to car

Wireless induction charging is already possible. In a few years time it will become the norm. No more silly cables, yeah!

I've never spent much money on mobile phones, but I have had wireless charging phones for about 5 years now. Give it another 5 years and that is what many people will have for their cars.

KCross

I'm not convinced. I wouldn't want a mat on my drive and I don't want to dig up my drive either for little gain.

New house or new drive then fine but that would be a very small %.

Mobile phones and EVs are often compared. Very different markets and type of device.