Advice on upgrading HKC Securewatch to latest IP panel??

moany fuc

HI Guys

Just looking for some advice I installed a HKC secure watch system 5 years ago. Great system never let me down unless the kids where hammering the door down looking for my little fella to come out and play when we where not home.

Neighbour was getting driven mad especially if we where on holidays.

As I'm a gadget freak I have ip cams set up in home so I am in a position to unset false alarms from away from home.

I heard the Siemens panel is good and has IP on board which I can connect to router through home plugs not bothered if difficult as good with networking etc.

Questions are
Any other Panel with IP on board?

Will my old HKC wired sensors and bell box be compatible with the Siemens panel (sure they would)

If I wanted to add wireless sensors who makes the cheapest that are compatible with the Siemens panel and cost.

Where can I source the Siemens 4000 series and what price would I pay.

Thanks in advance

KoolKid

Hi
The Siemens/Vanderbilt SPC 4320 has IP on board. Very easy to set up & connect.
The GSD i1070 Works via Lan or WiFi . Again easy enough to set up and connect.
Those 2 would be the most popular panels we use as they have free apps & free usage options without any running costs.
Some good information on the sticky here
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057394782

kub

KoolKid wrote: »

Hi
The Siemens/Vanderbilt SPC 4320 has IP on board. Very easy to set up & connect.
The GSD i1070 Works via Lan or WiFi . Again easy enough to set up and connect.
Those 2 would be the most popular panels we use as they have free apps & free usage options without any running costs.
Some good information on the sticky here
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057394782

LAN, Wifi...Free.
But if your electricity fails you will not be notified of ALARM activations, just fails to comm.
From a security perspective this FREE thing is not good enough.
OP I would urge you to consider either a landline or GSM/ GPRS back up.

KoolKid

The key words here are...

KoolKid wrote: »

free apps & free usage options without any running costs.

All the systems I mentioned also have options for GPRS/GSM back ups as well. Again lots of information in the sticky especially re pricing & polling etc.;)
From a security perspective would you sell a standalone non monitored alarm?

kub

As always the FREE word is being used by you.
Being honest I feel you are doing the security business a disservice.
You know well that intruder alarm systems are designed so that they still function in the event of an electrical failure.
You also know that routers cannot but you constantly come on and start using the FREE word.
As to the systems we install, well I can tell you this much, not a single one of them relies on someone's router.

You might also notice that in the average house the router is usually in the hallway by the front door, handy out for one of those ' comms failure ' notifications.

Comms failure is grand if you are on the internet or whatever, it is far more vital with regard to security systems.

Your first line is always free notifications but you are not explaining to people the vulnerability of their broadband and router and their vital component in the notification ability of their systems.

I suppose the subject of phone lines will also be brought up, but any traditional analogue telephone line always worked in the event of a electrical failure.

Here you are telling people that it is ok to rely on 3 extra things that could fail compared to that 1, namely the phone line.
Those 3 are, the broadband line, the actual router and the electrical power.

Why can't you just say free apps for the stuff you pedal?

KoolKid

Do we have to do this dance with you every time someone asks for options?
Apps are a feature, not to be confused with central station monitoring etc.
Again I said there are free options. There are also multiple options available on all systems I recommend if anyone wants redundancy.
Tell me do you install or have any standard systems with no monitoring or apps etc?

kub

KoolKid wrote: »

Do we have to do this dance with you every time someone asks for options?
Apps are a feature, not to be confused with central station monitoring etc.
Again I said there are free options. There are also multiple options available on all systems I recommend if anyone wants redundancy.
Tell me do you install or have any standard systems with no monitoring or apps etc?

Perhaps i take the security aspect of this business more seriously than you and perhaps your main concern is saving people money.

The first thing we should all be doing is considering security, this is after all a Home Security Forum.
Therefore the best security that an OP can afford, therefore start with the CS monitoring and work down from there.
If the OP requests FREE monitoring then off you go and bang your familiar drum but please point out the weakness's of these.
After all you do pay for what you get.

KoolKid

Bit do you have and install systems with no apps and no monitoring.?
The majority of domestic systems out there are standalone grade 1 systems and they still conform to standards. Nothing wrong with them is there?
Now let's consider anything like apps etc added onto those systems as a feature. Not every feature has to be analysed and every feature does not have to conform to grade 2 (or above) monitored systems. Apps etc are not considered as monitoring for insurance purposes etc.
So, essentially what we have are grade 1 systems with some nice added features..
Not so long ago we were all happily selling voice diallers and text diallers as nice systems with nice features.
Now, we have some nicer features and all of a sudden these grade one systems are no good???
Let's start with normal systems like we always did and work up from there. As professional installers we are always going to be able to fault any redundancy in any system.
Different users are always going to be happy with different levels of security.
But also let's debate the options. Sometimes what you pay for the same service etc varies also.

altor

moany fuc wrote: »

HI Guys

Just looking for some advice I installed a HKC secure watch system 5 years ago. Great system never let me down unless the kids where hammering the door down looking for my little fella to come out and play when we where not home.

Neighbour was getting driven mad especially if we where on holidays.

As I'm a gadget freak I have ip cams set up in home so I am in a position to unset false alarms from away from home.

I heard the Siemens panel is good and has IP on board which I can connect to router through home plugs not bothered if difficult as good with networking etc.

Questions are
Any other Panel with IP on board?

Will my old HKC wired sensors and bell box be compatible with the Siemens panel (sure they would)

If I wanted to add wireless sensors who makes the cheapest that are compatible with the Siemens panel and cost.

Where can I source the Siemens 4000 series and what price would I pay.

Thanks in advance

Without replacing the system you have you could add a GSM-SW-SC to that system for remote access using the HKC App.

fred funk }{

Anyone relying on a router to notify them of an alarm activation is a fool. Any professional recommending same is a bigger fool. I suppose us installers are all different and have a different set of prioritys when installing a security system.

kub

KoolKid wrote: »

Bit do you have and install systems with no apps and no monitoring.?
The majority of domestic systems out there are standalone grade 1 systems and they still conform to standards. Nothing wrong with them is there?
Now let's consider anything like apps etc added onto those systems as a feature. Not every feature has to be analysed and every feature does not have to conform to grade 2 (or above) monitored systems. Apps etc are not considered as monitoring for insurance purposes etc.
So, essentially what we have are grade 1 systems with some nice added features..
Not so long ago we were all happily selling voice diallers and text diallers as nice systems with nice features.
Now, we have some nicer features and all of a sudden these grade one systems are no good???
Let's start with normal systems like we always did and work up from there. As professional installers we are always going to be able to fault any redundancy in any system.
Different users are always going to be happy with different levels of security.
But also let's debate the options. Sometimes what you pay for the same service etc varies also.

On your first query, it is a long long time since we installed something without notification.
Why are you bringing standards into this? I never had any issues with standards. I must inquire actually does this whole using peoples routers for notification conform, because as i don't have any systems doing so, I have no idea.
As we are on standards, we get audited to ensure we are conforming to standards, do all of the manufacturers also get their panels independently tested as well?
Interesting so how you are saying here that those same App notification units, the free ones etc, are not regarded by insurance as monitoring, which is proper order, perhaps you might mention that to people when they fall in love with the Free word.

Not so long ago some installers were indeed pedaling voice and text diallers, I never did but if someone wanted one i got them one and explained the down falls compared to professional monitoring. Note i said some installers not all.

With the way things are going with regard to noise pollution etc, i can see the days of external sirens numbered. So as for those Grade 1's well lets keep an eye on that one.

But as professional installers we should be advising people of the most secure options as opposed to starting off with the Free ones with a choice as to redundancy.

kub

fred funk }{ wrote: »

Anyone relying on a router to notify them of an alarm activation is a fool. Any professional recommending same is a bigger fool. I suppose us installers are all different and have a different set of prioritys when installing a security system.

You hit the nail on the head there Fred, maybe i am too diplomatic.

KoolKid

The fact is that any system that does not have central station monitoring is grade one so anything regarding the app etc is not relevant.
There are lots of levels of security starting at grade 1 with no monitoring and not notification all the way up to grade 4 with serious redundancy and back ups to back ups etc.
Almost all installers out there have grade one systems installed and maintained. The majority of residential customers want a grade 1 system.
Now if they decide they want extra features and convenience added to that system that's fine.
There is going to be vulnerability.
If they want a grade 2 system with monitoring there is going to be vulnerability.
And so on and so on...
Where do we stop?
As a forum that grew from the DIY forum the HSS forum should be treated and such IMO.
It was clear from your previous post that if people refuse central station monitoring as advised then they should not complain if their systems fail. But people have the right to choose what system they want and whether or not they want to pay for features on their own home security systems.

kub

KoolKid wrote: »

The fact is that any system that does not have central station monitoring is grade one so anything regarding the app etc is not relevant.
There are lots of levels of security starting at grade 1 with no monitoring and not notification all the way up to grade 4 with serious redundancy and back ups to back ups etc.
Almost all installers out there have grade one systems installed and maintained. The majority of residential customers want a grade 1 system.
Now if they decide they want extra features and convenience added to that system that's fine.
There is going to be vulnerability.
If they want a grade 2 system with monitoring there is going to be vulnerability.
And so on and so on...
Where do we stop?
As a forum that grew from the DIY forum the HSS forum should be treated and such IMO.
It was clear from your previous post that if people refuse central station monitoring as advised then they should not complain if their systems fail. But people have the right to choose what system they want and whether or not they want to pay for features on their own home security systems.

So i take it you don't know about manufacturers and independent testing of their products to EN50131.
I don't need to be reminded of standards, thank you anyway.

Regardless of standards, we are professionals should be advising people of the best available things on the market for their security. Now as i said earlier, the 'you get what you pay for' and the 'best' are at opposite ends of the spectrum.
I would urge you please to point out the weakness of these Free things, i am sure people on here take your opinion seriously at this stage.

We can of course debate this in the HSS forum, to be fair to the normal person on here these discussions must be boring anyway.

But i am telling you, wherever i see free notifications mentioned in here i will be following those threads and if necessary I will let people know of the vulnerabilities of these arrangements.

KoolKid

I do know about independent testing. And I'm sure you also know that the Siemens Vanderbilt systems are fully certified and not self certified.

Again some users are happy with no monitoring or apps whatsoever.
Some are happy with self monitoring.
Some are happy with self monitoring with redundancy.
Some want central station monitoring
Some want central station monitoring with redundancy.
And you can keep going up from there.
So we are going to argue in every thread where there is a vulnerability????
Every discussion is going to be the same so just because some people want a standard system and don't want to pay for enhanced features..

kub

Look it is simple, if someone comes on here looking for a system and you reply with the free this and that because they are relying on their router.

Then if I see this I will point out the weakness.

So just give them the heads up that Free can be costly

I only knew about HKC for sure with regard to independent testing, what about GSD, Risco etc?

KoolKid

What about all the 1000s of systems out there not monitored at all?
What about systems monitored without redundancy?
There is a vulnerability to every system. Where are you going to stop?
What is your power is turned off and a GSM jammer is used? What if your landline is cut also?
Is every thread going to be about why you want everyone to use only HKC.?
Everyone doesn't want to pay for all these options and that's their right.
If they do want back ups to their systems there are plenty of systems and options available to them also.

kub

I have copied and pasted your post as I feel each point you brought up should be replied to properly:

What about all the 1000s of systems out there not monitored at all?

As you are onto numbers here, would you mind please breaking that down to how many of those systems were installed;
1. Pre the popularity of home alarm systems,when only a few people had alarm systems.
2. When neighbours knew one another well and when an external sounder was enough to get a response from a neighbour.
3. When that noise from an external alarm activating was enough to scare away an attempted intrusion.
4. Before the arrival of Broadband and before complacent manufacturers designed ways in which an alarm panel could integrate with a router, but never considered the weakness and vulnerability of same.

What about systems monitored without redundancy?

What about them? Usually in my own experience I find people take what advice i give them seriously and many do have redundancy, now i of course cannot speak for all of my colleagues out there.

There is a vulnerability to every system. Where are you going to stop?

I will stop when i have designed a proper security solution for my client which I believe ticks as many boxes as possible.

What is your power is turned off and a GSM jammer is used? What if your landline is cut also?

Well you are the one peddaling systems here that rely on routers and have the capability of GSM back up.
Do you ask people that question before you recommend your free solutions?
Besides it is a very foolish installer that will leave himself open to attempts like that, the Risk Assessment here should suggest the sort of individual and property being protected and the security system within will reflect this.

Is every thread going to be about why you want everyone to use only HKC.?

Would you do me a favour please and bring up some of my posts where i said to people that they should only use HKC ?

Everyone doesn't want to pay for all these options and that's their right.
If they do want back ups to their systems there are plenty of systems and options available to them also.

That is correct, but again you are doing the security business a disservice coming up straight away and as usual with your free this, that and the other thing to people who may not know the vulnerabilities, you are then not pointing out those vulnerabilities to these people.
But of course the funny thing is, your recommending one of the most expensive control panels to them at the same time

KoolKid

You are really getting petty & nitty gritty now.
There are 1000s of stand alone non-monitored systems out there and you know it. Furthermore systems like this can still conform to EN50131 standards.They are good enough for insurance companies and they are good enough for the certification bodies but yet are not good enough for you.
You keep on about what I am peddling. I am not the on pushing and promoting the one brand all the time. I am offering people alternatives. If people want redundancy they can have it. I have posted alternative options for those options too as you know.But you pick holes there as well.But of course I never see you posting anything about those options even though some offer the redundancy you mention and in some cases for less.
If you are so concerned about vulnerabilities & limitations of systems then maybe post the same concerns with the systems you are recommending also every time..
Power from a router can go down or be taken down.
GSM Can be blocked.
Phone lines can be cut.
ISP cables can be cut.
Radio can be jammed.
Systems can be disabled in many ways.
Now if all of the above ,and more ,was to happen, maybe polling alerts would be helpful. But yet thats something you don't appear to concern yourself with.

Instead of the same arguments over & over lets get it put in the charter, the sticky or in a warning sticky covering all systems and move on.

People come on here wanting advice on different systems and different options not just your or not just mine.

kub

KoolKid wrote:

You are really getting petty & nitty gritty now. There are 1000s of stand alone non-monitored systems out there and you know it. Furthermore systems like this can still conform to EN50131 standards.They are good enough for insurance companies and they are good enough for the certification bodies but yet are not good enough for you. You keep on about what I am peddling. I am not the on pushing and promoting the one brand all the time. I am offering people alternatives. If people want redundancy they can have it. I have posted alternative options for those options too as you know.But you pick holes there as well.But of course I never see you posting anything about those options even though some offer the redundancy you mention and in some cases for less. If you are so concerned about vulnerabilities & limitations of systems then maybe post the same concerns with the systems you are recommending also every time.. Power from a router can go down or be taken down. GSM Can be blocked. Phone lines can be cut. ISP cables can be cut. Radio can be jammed. Systems can be disabled in many ways. Now if all of the above ,and more ,was to happen, maybe polling alerts would be helpful. But yet thats something you don't appear to concern yourself with.

Will you show me please where I said there was not 1000's of non monitored systems out there.
Again as per your previous post where you said that I say to posters that they should only use HKC, could I see those posts please, because if they are there I must be losing my marbles.

Getting nitty and gritty, I have been compared to a dog with a bone on that so I agree.

A system so that complies with EN50131that is good enough for certification and insurers is good enough for you?
You as a professional installer who is aware of the limitation of especially EN50131.
Well I concern myself more with the standard of security that is required for my client, the risk assessment will decide on the system that reflects the threat.
Again as professionals we should be specifying the best for our clients.

But you are on and the one brand you never ever promote, no matter for what type of installation is HKC, the brand recognised by most installers in this country as the one that ticks most boxes especially for domestic installations.

The reason I picked holes in your alternatives is because in your previous post you said routers can be disconnected and GSM's blocked, but you always recommend both.
You don't really need to tell me about jammers etc, but it is much easier for a criminal to get their hands on a GSM blocker and remove power from a house than to have the capability to block a radio.
To you the be all and end all is polling, but comms alerts are not going to tell you your home is being broken into, will they?

KoolKid

We really are just going around in circles here.
Its down to this. People want options. You post an option , I post a different option which you want to warn people about the vulnerabilities of. Even though I often post options for IP with GSM back up the same as what you are saying is required.
But while your concerned about the telling people about these vulnerabilities, you are not equally concerned about telling them the vulnerabilities with GSM options also.
Then when I offer a further back up notification in the form of quick polling you constantly dismiss it because your offering lags so far behind in regard to this.
At the end of the day all of these are self monitored systems with some nice features.

Agin my suggestion to stop all this is to put the vulnerabilities in the sticky or maybe the charter or maybe a new thread about the vulnerabilities of all systems. Let everyone read it or direct them to it and move on..

moany fuc

Sorry Guys some issues with my internet last couple days. Thanks for all the advice some great reading here.

If this stops the arguing....... as I said in my original post I just need to be able to unset the Alarm every now and again. So doesn't matter a flying F**K how its jammed, how its cut or if it has 24/7 communication through a router.

Besides the insurance argument is a non starter cause anyone that would claim to an insurance company in the first place that they even have an alarm needs there head examined. Woppie I can save 40 euro a year but if I forget to set my Alarm or want to make modifications to it I stand to have a claim void) no thanks I have no Alarm.

Just checked again today its 20 euro now difference between having Alarm and no Alarm

What can I expect to pay for an I.P box cant seem to find any up to date prices.

Thanks

KoolKid

You position is exactly the point I am trying to get across. Tons of systems out there like that & tons of people out there who just want this as a feature without being sold everything.
You could easily just swap out your HKC control panel & keypad for an SPC4320 or the GSD i1070.
The SPC4320 takes a lan connection so a cable or power line adapter can be used for the connection.
The GSD panel can use LAN or WiFi if you want an easier option.
Shop around re pricing and try get prices from a few installers.

kub

moany fuc wrote: »

Sorry Guys some issues with my internet last couple days. Thanks for all the advice some great reading here.

If this stops the arguing....... as I said in my original post I just need to be able to unset the Alarm every now and again. So doesn't matter a flying F**K how its jammed, how its cut or if it has 24/7 communication through a router.

Besides the insurance argument is a non starter cause anyone that would claim to an insurance company in the first place that they even have an alarm needs there head examined. Woppie I can save 40 euro a year but if I forget to set my Alarm or want to make modifications to it I stand to have a claim void) no thanks I have no Alarm.

Just checked again today its 20 euro now difference between having Alarm and no Alarm

What can I expect to pay for an I.P box cant seem to find any up to date prices.

Thanks

I am sorry for hijacking your thread, KoolKid and I are in the trade and we have a few bones to pick.

I see yet again he is not recommending the cheapest option here as proposed by Altor above, which is surprising as he is always eager to save people money, that is the installation of the HKC GSM unit that is compatible with your existing panel, which due to the build quality probably has lots of years of service still available.
The Vanderbilt one is the most expensive panel and as far as I know, subject to correction of course, but is the GSD panel independently tested to EN50131?
Because KoolKid seems to be the one here with most knowledge on that, as he is testing their texting ability at the moment ( as mentioned in another thread) but he still has not answered that query.

kub

KoolKid wrote: »

We really are just going around in circles here.
Its down to this. People want options. You post an option , I post a different option which you want to warn people about the vulnerabilities of. Even though I often post options for IP with GSM back up the same as what you are saying is required.
But while your concerned about the telling people about these vulnerabilities, you are not equally concerned about telling them the vulnerabilities with GSM options also.
Then when I offer a further back up notification in the form of quick polling you constantly dismiss it because your offering lags so far behind in regard to this.
At the end of the day all of these are self monitored systems with some nice features.

Agin my suggestion to stop all this is to put the vulnerabilities in the sticky or maybe the charter or maybe a new thread about the vulnerabilities of all systems. Let everyone read it or direct them to it and move on..

So here as an example we have an OP with a query, to be fair the OP seems very reasonable and he gets it.
What do you do, not even consider the HKC option, the cheapest one for the OP, instead get him to splash out a few hundred euro in replacing his control panel / keypad and whatever else might need replacing.
As the OP mentioned his broadband has been giving trouble over the last few days, so you as a professional alarm installer have no issues whatsoever in recommending your wonderful free notification etc, relying on that same broadband connection?

I notice you are being very selective in the answering the questions i have put to you, so it seems we might be going around in circles for a while yet.

Please point out to me where it was that I neglected to say to someone about the vulnerabilities of GSM.

You are addicted to polling it seems, no matter how even if it is through a domestic router. Yes great all free, but if it goes down, the only notification that customer will get is either none or fail to comms, while some toe rag could be tearing their home apart and they are out thinking that there is some minor issue with their broadband.
To my mind, polling will only be best here if is dual path, but your immediate response is always free, free and free.

I dare you to start up a sticky where we can compare every panel on the Irish market. We will soon see the short comings in all the features of the panels you constantly mention.
We will see only 1 winner there, well some of us will that is.

KoolKid

kub wrote: »

I see yet again he is not recommending the cheapest option here as proposed by Altor above, which is surprising as he is always eager to save people money, that is the installation of the HKC GSM unit that is compatible with your existing panel, which due to the build quality probably has lots of years of service still available.

Not the cheapest option by the time you pay all the annual subscriptions for the lots of years of service. But nice to see your still getting in the promotional speel at every oppotunity.

kub wrote: »

The Vanderbilt one is the most expensive panel and as far as I know, subject to correction of course, but is the GSD panel independently tested to EN50131?
Because KoolKid seems to be the one here with most knowledge on that, as he is testing their texting ability at the moment ( as mentioned in another thread) but he still has not answered that query.

Just because I am test something does not mean I have all the answers. I'm not sure if the GSD is self certified to EN50131 or like the Siemens Vanderbilt is independently certified. When I find out Ill answer your question for you.
I have had them on every audit every year since using them & I have never had any non conformance issues flagged.

KoolKid

kub wrote: »

So here as an example we have an OP with a query, to be fair the OP seems very reasonable and he gets it.
What do you do, not even consider the HKC option, the cheapest one for the OP, instead get him to splash out a few hundred euro in replacing his control panel / keypad and whatever else might need replacing.
As the OP mentioned his broadband has been giving trouble over the last few days, so you as a professional alarm installer have no issues whatsoever in recommending your wonderful free notification etc, relying on that same broadband connection?

Answered this in your previous post.

kub wrote: »

I notice you are being very selective in the answering the questions i have put to you, so it seems we might be going around in circles for a while yet.

Please point out to me where it was that I neglected to say to someone about the vulnerabilities of GSM.

Do you want them all or will just 1 example do?

kub wrote: »

LAN, Wifi...Free.
But if your electricity fails you will not be notified of ALARM activations, just fails to comm.
From a security perspective this FREE thing is not good enough.
OP I would urge you to consider either a landline or GSM/ GPRS back up.

kub wrote: »

You are addicted to polling it seems, no matter how even if it is through a domestic router. Yes great all free, but if it goes down, the only notification that customer will get is either none or fail to comms, while some toe rag could be tearing their home apart and they are out thinking that there is some minor issue with their broadband.
To my mind, polling will only be best here if is dual path, but your immediate response is always free, free and free.

I have said multiple times there are options for back ups on all the system I mention. But you only come back to the free option.
Polling on multiple paths would be great if thats what someone want & they are happy to pay something for it.
But in the incidence above suppose the toe rag kills the power and has a jammer & cuts the phone line etc then pulls your house apart, would you prefer to hear about it in 5 minutes or 90 minutes.?

kub wrote: »

I dare you to start up a sticky where we can compare every panel on the Irish market. We will soon see the short comings in all the features of the panels you constantly mention.
We will see only 1 winner there, well some of us will that is.

You really are only interested in the one brand and to complain about every other.. Every system will have shortcomings & vulnerabilities.
But as I said before lets post up our options & let the poster decide what information to take and use.....
Or will we stick with your idea and pick holes in every option in every thread.?

KoolKid

Apology accepted & please accept mine for not being able to fulfill your request on this occasion.
The second query would be better addressed with the EQA

PS. This was a response to a post that was later deleted.

kub

Not the cheapest option by the time you pay all the annual subscriptions for the lots of years of service. But nice to see your still getting in the promotional speel at every oppotunity.

Nice to see you have the same opinion as me as to the long service which his current HKC panel will give him, must be the first time you have ever said anything positive about them actually, even if it is in a roundabout way.
Also bearing in mind the issues the OP has with his broadband, do you think it sensible to be promoting using his broadband to relay alarm conditions to him?

Just because I am test something does not mean I have all the answers. I'm not sure if the GSD is self certified to EN50131 or like the Siemens Vanderbilt is independently certified. When I find out Ill answer your question for you.
I have had them on every audit every year since using them & I have never had any non conformance issues flagged.

Well sorry i figured that as you were constantly using it and only says good things about the GSD, i thought you would know.
Would the average auditor know whether or not manufacturers get their systems tested by 3 rd parties?


Sorry obviously a cut and paste here.

kub

Another cut and paste:

KoolKid wrote: »

Answered this in your previous post.

You did, while you are happy to connect to a dodgy broadband connection.

Do you want them all or will just 1 example do?

Thank you, but this was in response to you with your Free Free and Free and on what do we discover afterwards? Dodgy broadband






I have said multiple times there are options for back ups on all the system I mention. But you only come back to the free option.
Polling on multiple paths would be great if thats what someone want & they are happy to pay something for it.
But in the incidence above suppose the toe rag kills the power and has a jammer & cuts the phone line etc then pulls your house apart, would you prefer to hear about it in 5 minutes or 90 minutes.?

But if it was my house I would be notified by my monitoring company. Look yet again you say if someone is willing to pay. You are supposed to be a professional here, but your first response always is the Free word, so they think then, that they don't need to pay for redundancies.

You really are only interested in the one brand and to complain about every other.. Every system will have shortcomings & vulnerabilities.
But as I said before lets post up our options & let the poster decide what information to take and use.....
Or will we stick with your idea and pick holes in every option in every thread.?

No i am not only interested in one brand, you are wrong there. I am, as you know in this game a long time. I do not only use HKC, but i do recognise that they tick nearly all the boxes.
By all means lets line them up and compare them, let the public see which manufacturer has most features and capabilities.

KoolKid

All systems should have a good lifespan. With all electronic goods manufacturer recommendations would be 10 years. I would have lots of brands of systems out there at 20 years +.
I am sure you would have lots also but ofcourse you only mention HKC.
Likewise you say you use other systems but you give the impression that only the one brand is suitable for everyone's needs.
To simplify this down it is clear from this you are happy to point out vulnerabilitys when I suggest something but not for your own suggestions..
You constantly go on about duel path but only offer HKC as a solution even though this is possible through most systems.
We have been comparing different systems via the sticky. This clearly shows the differences is services, options, features and costs.
You ask questions about how different systems are tested to the standards, but at the same time criticise other systems that conform to those standards. Then when it doesn't suit your argument you dismiss those same standards.
I have made some recommendations to do likewise with what vulnerabilitys there are with different options. But you clearly wanting to point out vulnerabilitys with some but not others appear to show clear agendas.

kub

KoolKid wrote: »

All systems should have a good lifespan. With all electronic goods manufacturer recommendations would be 10 years. I would have lots of brands of systems out there at 20 years +.
I am sure you would have lots also but ofcourse you only mention HKC.

All systems should have a good lifespan yes, I am glad you have shown such confidence in the OP's panel, from a manufacturer which you only spend your time on these threads moaning about because they charge for things that other manufacturers do not.
I did not mention HKC, The OP mentioned he had a HKC panel.
Yes i have plenty of older systems out there that were manufacturer by others.

kub

KoolKid wrote: »

Likewise you say you use other systems but you give the impression that only the one brand is suitable for everyone's needs.
To simplify this down it is clear from this you are happy to point out vulnerabilitys when I suggest something but not for your own suggestions..
You constantly go on about duel path but only offer HKC as a solution even though this is possible through most systems.

You really do have a bee in your bonnet about HKC . Anything that ticks the most boxes in a requirement situation will not only satisfy all current requirements but will also future proof it.
But you are again missing the bigger picture here, you responded to the OP straight away advising that his panel ( which you subsequently mentioned will give him more years of service ) should be ripped out and replaced with the most expensive panel on the market firstly and secondly with one that can currently only work with his dodgy broadband.
Then you go on about FREE FREE and FREE, therefore you were happy to advise this OP that your suggestion was ideal for his dodgy broadband.

When did I offer HKC only as dual path?

I have never seen 3 letters that would rattle someone so much.

kub

KoolKid wrote: »

We have been comparing different systems via the sticky. This clearly shows the differences is services, options, features and costs.
You ask questions about how different systems are tested to the standards, but at the same time criticise other systems that conform to those standards. Then when it doesn't suit your argument you dismiss those same standards.
I have made some recommendations to do likewise with what vulnerabilitys there are with different options. But you clearly wanting to point out vulnerabilitys with some but not others appear to show clear agendas.

Just on this whole standards thing, we know that HKC & Vanderbilt use 3rd parties to test their products to EN50131, we do not know as yet do GSD, Risco etc. So the big question here is, if a manufacturer does not use a 3rd party to check their products, then is it really good enough that they can just stamp it on the side of their product?
If that is the case then they are down there with the systems that can be bought in places such as B&Q etc.

The big thing here is, again you jumped on the usual solution. Oh this company have free this and this company have free that.
You did not consider the now obvious issues with the OP's broadband connection.
You use the Free word to save the OP money, but at the same time you did not offer the OP all of the solutions, the cheapest of which, rather than ripping out his panel etc was from HKC .
In this situation, with dodgy broadband and the usual weakness's with routers anyway, you did your usual and promoted everyone except HKC.

I suppose I am lucky, I do not have issues with any manufacturer and I can actually give people advice without a chip on my shoulder.
Oh and it is not my fault if it is HKC that is usually the one that ticks more boxes than the others.

KoolKid

I don't have a chip on my shoulder I have HKC systems out there and I will install it if that is what a customer wants. However when all is explained to them with different options they choose other options. Usually followed by a line like, I had 3 other installers out to quote me and none of them showed me any other systems or I asked for another panel but they couldn't install it..
You really are contradicting yourself on the standards. Are you now saying that all panels conforming to the same standards are somehow different because they are tested by someone else??
If a panel doesn't comply that's someone else's job to establish. I don't think it's for you or I to make wild accusations about.
You really seem to be the one obsessed with the free options. I have continually mentioned I offer both but you just keep repeating free with increasing repetitively. Strange..
Again the OP option to replace the panel was not the dearest option when you factor in annual €60 per annum. And before you go on another free rant he has already stated he just wants to have the app and has no interest in downtime or redundancy etc.
Can you not move on from finding faults and vulnerability with one offering and not the others and let us give people options and let them choose.

kub

KoolKid wrote: »

I don't have a chip on my shoulder I have HKC systems out there and I will install it if that is what a customer wants. However when all is explained to them with different options they choose other options. Usually followed by a line like, I had 3 other installers out to quote me and none of them showed me any other systems or I asked for another panel but they couldn't install it..
You really are contradicting yourself on the standards. Are you now saying that all panels conforming to the same standards are somehow different because they are tested by someone else??
If a panel doesn't comply that's someone else's job to establish. I don't think it's for you or I to make wild accusations about.
You really seem to be the one obsessed with the free options. I have continually mentioned I offer both but you just keep repeating free with increasing repetitively. Strange..
Again the OP option to replace the panel was not the dearest option when you factor in annual ?60 per annum. And before you go on another free rant he has already stated he just wants to have the app and has no interest in downtime or redundancy etc.
Can you not move on from finding faults and vulnerability with one offering and not the others and let us give people options and let them choose.

Your first paragraph is actually funny, so you are the 4th guy in and you chat to the potential customer. You tell them all about the free things that the other manufacturers have and you therefore talk them out of getting that dreaded HKC system .
I don't suppose you tell them about the pit falls of the free stuff do you?
Well we all know how easy the HKC stuff is to program and i suppose there are guys out there, as you often refer to as 1 trick ponies who only know HKC. Perhaps they think they do not need to know about any other manufacturers systems. I can only speak for myself however and i keep my options open.

I am not contradicting myself about standards, did you check your own exam results in school? Hardly. You do know that in order for something to reach a certain standard then it has to be checked over by a non vested interest.

Can you show me were i made these wild accusations please? I simply queried something that was all, there is a huge difference here.
I assumed that you would know the answer to that query off the top of your head as you are demonstrating your knowledge about that manufacturers products throughout these threads and you are also in the process of testing a Text dialler with them currently.
As i said i assumed you would know, so when you do find out please let me know.
Again i am not making any wild assumptions here.

Speaking of strange, you need to look within there or even go back to the second post on this thread, the one you wrote, you were the one who is actually the Free fanatic here. The OP put in a query, you were off with you free solutions, but only after the OP having to rip out a perfectly good control panel so he could avail of your free options.
You could have mentioned that HKC GSM as well in that thread but as usual and as demonstrated through out all your posts in this forum, not once will you even mention HKC.
You say you give people choices, well if so, do that and mention all their choices.
This while his broadband was dodgy anyway

You chose not to even mention that ? 60 per annum anyway, so the OP could not have made a qualified decision as on your 2nd post you did not give him all of his available options.

Again Free, rely on the clients router and all will be grand :rolleyes:

It is simple with you, anything but HKC.
You are the one here not giving people all of the options and letting them decide.

kub

KoolKid wrote:

Apology accepted & please accept mine for not being able to fulfill your request on this occasion. The second query would be better addressed with the EQA

KoolKid wrote:

PS. This was a response to a post that was later deleted.

Oh and as you brought it up about deleted posts, I had some issues with my posts last night.
You might notice that I have mentioned cut and paste on some of my posts.

KoolKid

You really are just going around and around here. I do tell customers about different options. I have said numerous times in this thread about free options and back up options but you just keep referring back to free...
Both options are available on systems I recommend. HKC only have a paid for option which some people quite simply don't want.
You trying to find fault with me will not change that.
Again you are critical of the free option but not the paid for back up using GSM.
Here's a scenario. Worst case, power is cut in a house, GSM is jammed and phone lines are cut. Now the house is broken into. The only alerts going out are comms fail. Would you prefer the notifications after 90 minutes that you are paying €96 for or 5 minutes from the system you're paying €40 a year from?
I notice that you didn't answer this the last time.
Your having a go at the standards really is showing desperation and really makes no sense and you know it. The systems conform to En50131 and they are inspected to that standard. We certify every job to that standard. That certification is accepted by all insurance company's, all monitoring stations and from the Guards. Yet not good enough for you. You stated you didn't know about Siemens or Risco testing procedures, so would you not use or certify these makes of system. This really sounds like you want to promote the one system and try to discredit others.
Besides you strong objection to people who don't want to pay for self monitoring option, regardless of the vulnerability have you any other logical argument to make.?
Again noting theat GSM backups have vulnerability also.

kub

KoolKid wrote: »

Hi
The Siemens/Vanderbilt SPC 4320 has IP on board. Very easy to set up & connect.
The GSD i1070 Works via Lan or WiFi . Again easy enough to set up and connect.
Those 2 would be the most popular panels we use as they have free apps & free usage options without any running costs.
Some good information on the sticky here
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057394782

That is you isn't it? This is the 2nd post of this thread.

Just to keep things clear here.

kub

KoolKid wrote: »

You really are just going around and around here. I do tell customers about different options. I have said numerous times in this thread about free options and back up options but you just keep referring back to free...

And we will continue to do that, going around and round. As per my previous post above where I have quoted your first response in this thread. You were the one who wrote that post and it is you who brought up all the Free stuff, without mentioning the pit falls and again not giving the OP all of the choices.

kub

KoolKid wrote: »

Both options are available on systems I recommend. HKC only have a paid for option which some people quite simply don't want.
You trying to find fault with me will not change that.
Again you are critical of the free option but not the paid for back up using GSM.

But i thought you mentioned on another thread that you were still testing the GSD text dialler, I know the Vanderbilt one is good, well still 2g, so all is good there as long as the mobile providers keep providing the 2 g service.

So you decided on in that post that it was pointless even mentioning the HKC option as you knew the OP would not want it anyway, that was kind of arrogant out of you don't you think?

I am critical of the free option yes, as Fred Funk said relying on domestic routers is a joke.
Someone pulling out something as simple as a plug for a router to plug something else in instead will disable notification.
Sorry i am professional, that to me is not good enough.

kub

KoolKid wrote: »

Here's a scenario. Worst case, power is cut in a house, GSM is jammed and phone lines are cut. Now the house is broken into. The only alerts going out are comms fail. Would you prefer the notifications after 90 minutes that you are paying ?96 for or 5 minutes from the system you're paying ?40 a year from?

But in that scenario the home has been targeted and therefore the installer has been complacent. Even if we go with your solution all that is going to be received is comms failure, not good enough.

A system in such a situation as that should be capable of transmitting something more appropriate than comms failures.

kub

KoolKid wrote: »

Your having a go at the standards really is showing desperation and really makes no sense and you know it. The systems conform to En50131 and they are inspected to that standard. We certify every job to that standard. That certification is accepted by all insurance company's, all monitoring stations and from the Guards. Yet not good enough for you.

Where did i say standards are not good enough for me? What i said was the Risk Assessment will determine the system that will be installed. That same Risk Assessment is part of the EN50131 standard.

Desperation? all i did was question did each manufacturer have 3rd party impartial inspections done on their products to ensure they comply with these same standards. That is a query, i don't think that is desperate.

Other than that, thank you, but i already know how certification works.

kub

KoolKid wrote: »

You stated you didn't know about Siemens or Risco testing procedures, so would you not use or certify these makes of system. This really sounds like you want to promote the one system and try to discredit others.
Besides you strong objection to people who don't want to pay for self monitoring option, regardless of the vulnerability have you any other logical argument to make.?
Again noting theat GSM backups have vulnerability also.

As we are on a public forum, just be clear please. Siemens was the old name of Vanderbilt, same product, different name, that is all. I did not only mention Vanderbilt and Risco, i asked about GSD as well again assuming you knew the answer to that.
With regard to Vanderbilt and Risco, well yes i have certified systems with these manufacturers products, I often wondered about that accreditation on their panels. Again i assumed you would know about GSD off the top of your head.

My logical argument is that you as a professional is recommending people use free ways in which they should be alerted to some toe rag breaking into their homes, while their router is the way in which they are alerted, which in my book is not good enough.

KoolKid

kub wrote: »

That is you isn't it? This is the 2nd post of this thread.

Just to keep things clear here.

Yes note the word options. Again, I am saying there are options for free and options for back ups. Why are you just constantly repeating the same thing?

kub wrote: »

And we will continue to do that, going around and round. As per my previous post above where I have quoted your first response in this thread. You were the one who wrote that post and it is you who brought up all the Free stuff, without mentioning the pit falls and again not giving the OP all of the choices.

You mean in the same way you mention GSM and other options without the pitfalls & vunerabilities??

kub wrote: »

But i thought you mentioned on another thread that you were still testing the GSD text dialler, I know the Vanderbilt one is good, well still 2g, so all is good there as long as the mobile providers keep providing the 2 g service.

So you decided on in that post that it was pointless even mentioning the HKC option as you knew the OP would not want it anyway, that was kind of arrogant out of you don't you think?

Vanderbilt 3G GSM unit will be available by next week I believe.
I believe the poster has made it clear he didn't want the bells and whistles etc.

kub wrote: »

I am critical of the free option yes, as Fred Funk said relying on domestic routers is a joke.
Someone pulling out something as simple as a plug for a router to plug something else in instead will disable notification.
Sorry i am professional, that to me is not good enough.

Yet again its a feature. So every non monitored system you come across/service is a joke, as they have nothing at all. A PSTN monitored system can be disabled by cutting a cable. Do you tell all your customers that is a joke.
GSM can be jammed, do you tell all your customers using that its a joke.

kub wrote: »

But in that scenario the home has been targeted and therefore the installer has been complacent. Even if we go with your solution all that is going to be received is comms failure, not good enough.

A system in such a situation as that should be capable of transmitting something more appropriate than comms failures.

So say you have installed your app here with GSM back up & monitoring via that & PSTN . You have still been complacent???
What are you going to say next , every job should have a radio back up as well?
A comms failure is all that's possible here in this case. Wouldn't a notification of all comms failed in 5 minutes be better than in 90 minutes?

kub wrote: »

Where did i say standards are not good enough for me? What i said was the Risk Assessment will determine the system that will be installed. That same Risk Assessment is part of the EN50131 standard.

Desperation? all i did was question did each manufacturer have 3rd party impartial inspections done on their products to ensure they comply with these same standards. That is a query, i don't think that is desperate.

Other than that, thank you, but i already know how certification works.

It comes across fairly obvious that you are implying self certification may not be good enough, or there is some issue. Regardless the systems have to stand up to the same scrutiny in each company's audits.

kub wrote: »

As we are on a public forum, just be clear please. Siemens was the old name of Vanderbilt, same product, different name, that is all. I did not only mention Vanderbilt and Risco, i asked about GSD as well again assuming you knew the answer to that.
With regard to Vanderbilt and Risco, well yes i have certified systems with these manufacturers products, I often wondered about that accreditation on their panels. Again i assumed you would know about GSD off the top of your head.

My logical argument is that you as a professional is recommending people use free ways in which they should be alerted to some toe rag breaking into their homes, while their router is the way in which they are alerted, which in my book is not good enough.

We all recommend different systems. Again I will offer both if people want it.
Still the same over & over.

kub

KoolKid wrote: »

Yes note the word options. Again, I am saying there are options for free and options for back ups. Why are you just constantly repeating the same thing?

You used the word options with regard to Free.
Here you go, read it slowly now.

Hi
The Siemens/Vanderbilt SPC 4320 has IP on board. Very easy to set up & connect.
The GSD i1070 Works via Lan or WiFi . Again easy enough to set up and connect.
Those 2 would be the most popular panels we use as they have free apps & free usage options without any running costs.
Some good information on the sticky here
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showt...p?t=2057394782


Tell me please what redundancy both those panels, that you recommended have no running costs.

kub

KoolKid wrote: »

You mean in the same way you mention GSM and other options without the pitfalls & vunerabilities??

Just be clear here now, are you suggesting that a GSM unit can be as vulnerable as a router? That someone could just unplug the GSM from where it is plugged in, is it ?
Just like that :rolleyes:

kub

KoolKid wrote: »

Vanderbilt 3G GSM unit will be available by next week I believe.
I believe the poster has made it clear he didn't want the bells and whistles etc.

Is that like when a builder saying next week, because if the recent episode of 520.1 keypads is anything to go by, i won't be holding my breath.

Subsequently yes the OP did indeed mention that, but really as a professional you should be advising him on the best security possible.

KoolKid

Same stuff over and over. We have established routers are vulnerable to power cuts. We have established GSM s are vulnerable to jamming.
Both can be easily done once you as you know.
You have to be inside the house to unplug the router. Power can be turned off from outside. This requires physical tampering, jamming a GSM requires no physical tampering. Based on that yes GSM is as easy to jam as it is to switch off power.
We have established lots of back ups would be ideal, but not everyone wants to spend this sort of money on their security.
Some people are happy with no monitoring at all.
Everyone who walks in Harvey Norman's doesn't want the 70inch TV with UHD and Internet apps etc.
Each to their own. Let them take the advice and choose.
Have you anything new to add or are you just here to continue the same thing over and over.

kub

KoolKid wrote: »

Yet again its a feature. So every non monitored system you come across/service is a joke, as they have nothing at all. A PSTN monitored system can be disabled by cutting a cable. Do you tell all your customers that is a joke.
GSM can be jammed, do you tell all your customers using that its a joke.

A feature which you are recommending to people who know no better, a feature that is relying on their router, that a child could unplug :rolleyes:.
I don't know are you more interested in saving people money rather than providing them with better security solutions, because from a security point of view, you are doing them no favours at all.

Every non monitored system I come across is from a different era, besides your recommendation through a router might as well be in that category. Besides mostly i find that these are in buildings that are rented out and landlords only provide the basic's.

Be more specific please with your wording, if a PTSN line is cut, then notification is affected, the entire system is not disabled.

Besides cutting such lines is conscious thing, as i said previously, a person living in a house could easily unplug their router by accident, to say, plug in the vacuum cleaner.
Oh and don't forget your precious router will also be knocked out of that line is cut.

Again i advise my own clients in a more professional way than you do anyway, that is coming across very clear here.

kub

KoolKid wrote: »

So say you have installed your app here with GSM back up & monitoring via that & PSTN . You have still been complacent???
What are you going to say next , every job should have a radio back up as well?
A comms failure is all that's possible here in this case. Wouldn't a notification of all comms failed in 5 minutes be better than in 90 minutes?

Well first off and again my Risk Assessment would have suggested if that sort of incident could occur and the system installed would be a reflection of that.
Therefore chances are there would be a radio as well, so the activation is transmitted.
Again i see the chip on your shoulder popping up, the 90 minutes is suggesting there is a HKC system with 90 minute polling. Well on high security sites that i have that polling period is a lot less than that and on some sites we have Vanderbilt, so what have you got to say about Vanderbilt? But my Vanderbilt is not going through a petty domestic router.