2017 Local authority SEO competition

TaurenDruid

PAS have an advert up for a new Senior Executive Officer competition for local authorities:

https://www.publicjobs.ie/publicjobs/campaignAdvert/53440.htm

Anyone got any advice on the application or competition process?

Specifically, while PAS have loads of downloads about Civil Service competencies, there's nothing I can find on local authority competencies on their site and the information booklet has just a page.

Civil Service competencies don't map directly across even though this seems to be the local authority equivalent of an APO.

Thanks in advance!

Nerd Queen

Application submitted here. Best of luck!

TaurenDruid

Mine just gone in, too. Best of luck to you, too!

griffin100

I applied last time around and hit the required scores in the online tests to have my application reviewed. However I wasn't shortlisted for interview. The mail I received back said that my application was reviewed under the following criteria:

- Strategic Management and Change ? A broad track record displaying the ability to think and act strategically and in the delivery of change;

- Delivering Results ? Evidence of delivering challenging results in an efficient and cost effective manner across a range of areas. Evidence of decisive action with multiple stakeholders.

- Performance through People ? Proven ability to motivate others individually and in teams to deliver high quality work and customer focused outcomes. Evidence of managing, supervising and leading teams of 3+.

- Personal Effectiveness - Evidence of appropriate and positive self confidence. Operates effectively in an environment with significant complexity and pace. Evidence of effective communication, to include presentations and reports.

- Experience: 5 years experience at an appropriate senior level.

The standard must be high as this role was a step down for me and I would have thought I hit all of these criteria very well.....but then I would wouldn't I

Hope that's of help to someone.

TaurenDruid

I'd be interested in seeing how many made it through from local authorities vs civil service vs private sector all right.

Tabnabs

Dates for Stage 1 online assessments have been released

Test Window Open: 13.00 hrs 15 June Test Window Close: 13:00 hrs Thursday 22 June
Test Window Open: 08.00 hrs 4 July Test Window Close: 20.00 hrs 5 July

TaurenDruid

So it looks like the tests are different to the APO competition. A different company, too? The job simulation one is weird. What do you do if you think all the options are crap (as was the case with some of the options in the APO tests, but at least you could mark them all as poor options/least likely to choose this action).

TaurenDruid

New message with login details for the online tests and announcing the additional dates that they're available for:

Test Window Open: 13.00 hrs 15 June Test Window Close: 13:00 hrs Thursday 22 June
Test Window Open: 08.00 hrs 4 July Test Window Close: 20.00 hrs 5 July

And they're not available on Monday evening, 19th June.

That's my Sunday afternoon sorted, I guess...

Nerd Queen

Anybody tried the tests yet?

Whenever wherever

Just me or is there only one example for the management scenario questions?

TaurenDruid

Yup, just the one example, and no feedback to say "This would be the preferred answer and should attract most filled-in dots because... and this one would be the second preferred answer... etc."

So yeah, I can see foresee lots of frustration with that particular test...

prettyboy81

Couple more days of training the brain with practise tests before I do this test.

Nerd Queen

Found the timing on the tests tricky! Not the actual questions just the timing

TaurenDruid

How so? Not enough time per question, or overall? About to kick it off myself in 15 or 20 minutes :-/

Nerd Queen

TaurenDruid wrote: »

How so? Not enough time per question, or overall? About to kick it off myself in 15 or 20 minutes :-/

I didn't think there was enough time per question at all! Got about 40 of the verbal done and i think 30 on the numerical! Management one is strange too! Just very tight timewise on the first 2

TaurenDruid

From memory of the APO competition, I got through the verbal ok but the maths I had to just guess the last few. This is is a different company doing the tests, though, I think, so they could be tougher. How long do they all take?

TaurenDruid

So 12 minutes each allowed for the Verbal and Numerical. Yeah, I see what you mean about tight for time! As mentioned, in the AP, I finished all of the verbal reasoning with some time to spare and had to guess a couple of the numerical; I didn't get either anywhere near finished this time around. Very ambiguous wording on some of them!

Nerd Queen

TaurenDruid wrote: »

So 12 minutes each allowed for the Verbal and Numerical. Yeah, I see what you mean about tight for time! As mentioned, in the AP, I finished all of the verbal reasoning with some time to spare and had to guess a couple of the numerical; I didn't get either anywhere near finished this time around. Very ambiguous wording on some of them!

I was the same finished the verbal on the AP but missed a few on the numerical. The time wasted constantly clicking between tabs was an annoying. That's where the ambiguity of the wording as you said annoyed me cos a couple of the tabs had to be checked for the answer.

To get them all in verbal you had to answer every question in 14.7 seconds. In numerical 19.5 seconds per question. Thats quite tight no matter how good you are when you have to click between tabs.

Flew through the management scenario questions. What did you think of those?

TaurenDruid

A mixture of "All of these options are equally valid (or equally ****e!), how am I supposed to choose?!", where I ended up with a 2-2-2 distribtion or maybe 3-2-1; and "Well, that's obvious!" where I'd 6 dots in the one answer. Then would second-guess myself and think about putting 1 dot into another answer, just in case... I'd say I did reasonably ok in it, fingers crossed, but I don't think I did well enough in the other two.

The huge problem with this type of test is you don't know what they're looking for! The sample question, for example - in the real world, if you've a good staff member and no guarantee of getting an equally good replacement (if any!), would you ever try to get them moved somewhere else, pre-emptively, if they haven't actually looked for a move? Not a snowball's chance in hell! But what's the "right" answer? It could be "The organisation is more important, get them transferred to the other section so they'll fulfill a greater potential"; or it could equally be "This person is entirely competent, keep them in my section so we achieve our objectives." Presumably the "right" weighting has been picked by a psychologist employed by a German multinational who last week was designing a test to select store managers for Lidl...

What's interesting is if you give the sample question to different actual managers at SEO level and ask them to do it, then compare their answers...

Nerd Queen

TaurenDruid wrote: »

A mixture of "All of these options are equally valid (or equally ****e!), how am I supposed to choose?!", where I ended up with a 2-2-2 distribtion or maybe 3-2-1; and "Well, that's obvious!" where I'd 6 dots in the one answer. Then would second-guess myself and think about putting 1 dot into another answer, just in case... I'd say I did reasonably ok in it, fingers crossed, but I don't think I did well enough in the other two.

The huge problem with this type of test is you don't know what they're looking for! The sample question, for example - in the real world, if you've a good staff member and no guarantee of getting an equally good replacement (if any!), would you ever try to get them moved somewhere else, pre-emptively, if they haven't actually looked for a move? Not a snowball's chance in hell! But what's the "right" answer? It could be "The organisation is more important, get them transferred to the other section so they'll fulfill a greater potential"; or it could equally be "This person is entirely competent, keep them in my section so we achieve our objectives." Presumably the "right" weighting has been picked by a psychologist employed by a German multinational who last week was designing a test to select store managers for Lidl...

What's interesting is if you give the sample question to different actual managers at SEO level and ask them to do it, then compare their answers...

Absolutely like there is no clear cut right or wrong answer only what you deem right/ wrong or possibly an option! Ah sure we'll see whats next! Best of luck to everyone!

Hopefully results will be out quick enough after the july deadline......

Nerd Queen

I have no patience waiting for these results haha

TaurenDruid

We've a while to wait yet - they won't be released until after the last date for doing the tests, which is next Wednesday. That said, they're computerised, so no reason we won't get them by the end of next week. I just have to hope answering 25-ish verbal questions was enough, and that I got most of them right!

fickletosser

Just completed the tests......very tough time wise. Hopefully wont be waiting long on the results.

prettyboy81

Hopefully not a long wait once the window closes this evening.

Tabnabs

Felt more like I was applying for a job with Evergreen Ltd. :pac:

Done, but I hated the tab system, especially for the verbal reasoning.

Decinho

I must say the verbal test was a nightmare, do you read the 6 tabs first or read as you need to answer the question....... the short time limit was so off putting. I found the math a bit better but still only got to about 25-30 questions done.

I was thinking the results would be out soon but then just remembered that there were tests on yesterday.

fickletosser

The Suspense is killing me!!!!

Decinho

Did anyone apply for this 2 year ago?

It was pretty controversial..........

TaurenDruid

How so?

Nerd Queen

Decinho wrote: »

Did anyone apply for this 2 year ago?

It was pretty controversial..........

Oh really in what way? Also did anyone else think the results were out only to find it was a PAS survey?

Decinho

Well I scored fairly highly as did someone else I know, so we were waiting for our interviews after being congratulated. There was a huge delay and it turned out what happened was a lot of internal applicants in the local authority scored badly in the test, they complained to their union and the union fought on their behalf to have every internal applicant reinstated. This is what I happened. Despite failing the tests they got reinstated and we got pushed out. Their experience was deemed better than ours as they worked in the local authority so despite scoring much better than some, they were called for interview over us.

AndrewJRenko

Decinho wrote: »

Well I scored fairly highly as did someone else I know, so we were waiting for our interviews after being congratulated. There was a huge delay and it turned out what happened was a lot of internal applicants in the local authority scored badly in the test, they complained to their union and the union fought on their behalf to have every internal applicant reinstated. This is what I happened. Despite failing the tests they got reinstated and we got pushed out. Their experience was deemed better than ours as they worked in the local authority so despite scoring much better than some, they were called for interview over us.

Do you have documentary evidence of this?

Decinho

Well just my exam results but it was widely known what happened.

I was informed by people working within the local authority.

Documentary evidence means nothing when a union gets involved, the union got their way and that was that.

AndrewJRenko

Decinho wrote: »

Well just my exam results but it was widely known what happened.

I was informed by people working within the local authority.

Documentary evidence means nothing when a union gets involved, the union got their way and that was that.

If you want to stop it happening next time, you need to shine a very bright light on it. Evidence would be needed to do this.

fickletosser

Nerd Queen wrote: »

Oh really in what way? Also did anyone else think the results were out only to find it was a PAS survey?

ME!! Thought oh here we go only to open the message and it to be a survey.....How cruel!!

Six of One

I didn't get the survey so was spared that! Found the test very difficult, probably got 12 in each of the timed tests. Just waiting for the email to put me out of my misery.

Decinho

I'm not sure what could be done though, they have loopholes around everything ie. saying performing well in these tests does not guarantee you will be called for interview and that kind of thing.

I'm over it, I am just bringing it up for the sake of people on here in case something like it happens again. It was completely wrong for people who failed the tests to be brought back in to the competition but that's what happened.

Decinho

Has anyone rang to see when the results are expected?

prettyboy81

Decinho wrote: »

Has anyone rang to see when the results are expected?

Nah just wait for the email to hit.

Nerd Queen

Thought results would be today. Getting more sceptical as time goes by about what filtering they are doing.....

prettyboy81

Nerd Queen wrote: »

Thought results would be today. Getting more sceptical as time goes by about what filtering they are doing.....

No need to be sceptical. The last APO competition took around 3 weeks factoring in the Christmas break. Next week will be deliverance, IMO.

Decinho

The are not going to make the same mistake as last time and announce results and then have to backtrack so they are probably making sure they have themselves covered internally and with unions and all that stuff this time round.

TaurenDruid

The result emails should - if the follow other competitions - give the pass/qualifying mark and the marks we got.

If they don't, an FoI request would produce the qualifying marks.

Seems to be taking quite a while for an automated process (the 'right' answers should already be on the system)...

Decinho

TaurenDruid wrote: »

The result emails should - if the follow other competitions - give the pass/qualifying mark and the marks we got.

If they don't, an FoI request would produce the qualifying marks.

Seems to be taking quite a while for an automated process (the 'right' answers should already be on the system)...

They had all of that last time, but the ruling was that all internal applicants were brought back in whether or not they failed so your placing obviously ended being almost worthless. They did interview some external applicants so maybe they took the top 50 external I'm not sure. I was disgusted and didn't bother following up to see what approach they took.

I'd imagine this time it will be more straight forward and if you place high enough you will get an interview. I'm sure they aren't going to do the same thing again as I imagine it lead to a lot of complaints.

prettyboy81

Hopefully we all hear soon enough.

daithi84

Decinho wrote: »

Well I scored fairly highly as did someone else I know, so we were waiting for our interviews after being congratulated. There was a huge delay and it turned out what happened was a lot of internal applicants in the local authority scored badly in the test, they complained to their union and the union fought on their behalf to have every internal applicant reinstated. This is what I happened. Despite failing the tests they got reinstated and we got pushed out. Their experience was deemed better than ours as they worked in the local authority so despite scoring much better than some, they were called for interview over us.

Thats not correct. The way they shortlisted was against policy. Dont know the exact details but they shortlisted people on their application form and didnt take the tests into account where they are supposed to only shortlist from forms of the people who pass the tests. The competition didnt go ahead and no one was called for interview.

Decinho

daithi84 wrote: »

Thats not correct. The way they shortlisted was against policy. Dont know the exact details but they shortlisted people on their application form and didnt take the tests into account where they are supposed to only shortlist from forms of the people who pass the tests. The competition didnt go ahead and no one was called for interview.

What you are saying may have have happened after the union involvement as originally the process was and is with any publicjobs competition that they rank based on test scores. They then call for interview based on these scores and that is when they review applications. I believe the local authority by passed the norms and did it their own way to satisfy the union ie. called internal people to interview even if they failed the tests. Nothing i have said is factually incorrect, unless you are saying they scrapped the entire competition even after carrying out interviews which I sincerely doubt.I know someone who was called for interview but didn't get a job. What part of what I said is incorrect?

daithi84

Decinho wrote: »

What you are saying may have have happened after the union involvement as originally the process was and is with any publicjobs competition that they rank based on test scores. They then call for interview based on these scores and that is when they review applications. I believe the local authority by passed the norms and did it their own way to satisfy the union ie. called internal people to interview even if they failed the tests. Nothing i have said is factually incorrect, unless you are saying they scrapped the entire competition even after carrying out interviews which I sincerely doubt.I know someone who was called for interview but didn't get a job. What part of what I said is incorrect?

Just checked there, there was misleading information in the application booklet regarding assessment techniques. Some form of assessment tool was replaced with an online tests. Public jobs also used the same results for some people for other jobs, and the candidates were not informed this would happen. There was also no transparency on how they assessed people to progress to interview. People were getting varying different points depending on which board interviewed them and the discrepancy could not be justified. Also people were offered jobs in locations they never applied for and once they refused those locations further people were interviewed who didnt make the grade and were then offered those jobs. The whole process was completely different to how it was done before and seemed very dodgy selection process and the whole process was not communicated to candidates. In the end no one got offered jobs and whole competition scrapped. The local authority has no say in how PAS is run. Local authority might be on the board but the process is all done through PAS which is run by the civil service. Local authorities dont have the authority to bypass the system and give interviews to people who didnt score high on the tests.

prettyboy81

Results should be interesting then going on the last competition and issues.

Best of Luck.

Decinho

daithi84 wrote: »

Just checked there, there was misleading information in the application booklet regarding assessment techniques. Some form of assessment tool was replaced with an online tests. Public jobs also used the same results for some people for other jobs, and the candidates were not informed this would happen. There was also no transparency on how they assessed people to progress to interview. People were getting varying different points depending on which board interviewed them and the discrepancy could not be justified. Also people were offered jobs in locations they never applied for and once they refused those locations further people were interviewed who didnt make the grade and were then offered those jobs. The whole process was completely different to how it was done before and seemed very dodgy selection process and the whole process was not communicated to candidates. In the end no one got offered jobs and whole competition scrapped. The local authority has no say in how PAS is run. Local authority might be on the board but the process is all done through PAS which is run by the civil service. Local authorities dont have the authority to bypass the system and give interviews to people who didnt score high on the tests.

While I take on board what you are saying and it all sounds reasonable, PAS run the competitions in the same way all the time. They are very experienced at it, it has many flaws but they know what they are doing at least. The reason for the confusion in this competition was due to what I have stated previously, unions went mad because so many internal applicants failed the tests and thus wouldn't be called to the next phase. The local authority then went back to PAS claiming that the who structure was flawed and got all the internal applicants brought back in. This meant the only way to call people for interview was based on applications alone and obviously the local authority experience won out then.

I have no idea what happened at the interview stage but it's interesting to hear it was scrapped. What have they done without the SEOs for 2 years? Presumably they had internal staff acting up which would mean the unions got what they wanted in the end, well if staff received pay for acting up.........

Anyway it is all in the past, I was just highlighting it for people who might assume great test scores will guarantee interviews when it certainly didn't last time.

daithi84

Decinho wrote: »

While I take on board what you are saying and it all sounds reasonable, PAS run the competitions in the same way all the time. They are very experienced at it, it has many flaws but they know what they are doing at least. The reason for the confusion in this competition was due to what I have stated previously, unions went mad because so many internal applicants failed the tests and thus wouldn't be called to the next phase. The local authority then went back to PAS claiming that the who structure was flawed and got all the internal applicants brought back in. This meant the only way to call people for interview was based on applications alone and obviously the local authority experience won out then.

I have no idea what happened at the interview stage but it's interesting to hear it was scrapped. What have they done without the SEOs for 2 years? Presumably they had internal staff acting up which would mean the unions got what they wanted in the end, well if staff received pay for acting up.........

Anyway it is all in the past, I was just highlighting it for people who might assume great test scores will guarantee interviews when it certainly didn't last time.

If the aim of the unions was to get local authority staff shortlisted for interview, I wouldnt see them kicking up a fuss and get the whole competition scrapped. Acting positions have only been authorised again only in the last year really. Some local authorities are very heavy on SEO's. They are downgrading a lot of Executive Manager posts and giving the jobs to SEO's.

I would say this time round it will be done properly due to the criticism of the last round.