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BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    Just throwing in my tuppence.

    The only advantage I see the X buses having is using the CZ by pass. There are numerous stops on those routes.

    Surely there could be a decision made that the first stop after Heuston for 66X and 67X is the West side of Lucan.

    Surely if you are travelling to Celbridge, Maynooth or Leixlip on the X you don't want a gaggle of passengers to alight in Palmerstown and Liffey Valley. But I'm sure there is a logical explanation!

    Just thinking out loud here.

    Thinking quite clearly too.

    One of the all too obvious realities of "Express" bus services in Dublin terms,is the lack of appreciation of the term "Express".

    Almost from the outset,Express services,when they were introduced,were immediately subjected to dilution,usually to facilitate complainants who were peeved at buses passing their desired stop.

    Thus,over a period,each Express route became simply a glorified version of it's parent number.

    Nobody appeared to recognize the strength of FILLING an Express Bus at an outer location,with passengers destined for the CITY CENTRE,and advertising the resultant EXPRESS journey time,thereby attracting and encouraging further Car Based business.

    Express services as currently understood in Dublin,are most certainly NOT such animals at all.


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    Thinking quite clearly too.

    One of the all too obvious realities of "Express" bus services in Dublin terms,is the lack of appreciation of the term "Express".

    Almost from the outset,Express services,when they were introduced,were immediately subjected to dilution,usually to facilitate complainants who were peeved at buses passing their desired stop.

    Thus,over a period,each Express route became simply a glorified version of it's parent number.

    Nobody appeared to recognize the strength of FILLING an Express Bus at an outer location,with passengers destined for the CITY CENTRE,and advertising the resultant EXPRESS journey time,thereby attracting and encouraging further Car Based business.

    Express services as currently understood in Dublin,are most certainly NOT such animals at all.

    Telling it as it is, as ever. Thank you!


  • Registered Users Posts: 643 ✭✭✭Corca Baiscinn


    Hope there's some mechanism for you logical thinkers above to make your views knows during the upcoming Jared Walker review of all Dub Bus Routes. If that's what an "express" service amounts to, it's no wonder AA Roadwatch reports congestion on the Quays just after "It says in the papers " every morning! I wish you luck!


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,856 ✭✭✭trellheim


    e the pinch point on Conyngham Road, surely "no left turn" onto Chesterfield Avenue and a continuation of the bus lane would be in order there?

    Only sunny sundays is that an issue the traffic going up infirmary road is what actually clogs it most of the time as its a main orbital route around the city centre


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,388 ✭✭✭StreetLight


    The Irish Independent is running a piece on the anticipated launch of the NTA review of bus corridors in Dublin:

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/highspeed-bus-corridor-on-cards-as-gridlock-adds-70pc-to-journey-times-35765133.html


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,388 ✭✭✭StreetLight


    And here it is:

    http://www.busconnects.ie


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,865 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    Sounds good. Very short on detail/maps/timeframes and so on. But it's a start.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,773 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    It is all fine. There is an elephant in the room though.

    Cost.

    A lot of the problems with Dublin Bus are that the unit costs are just too high. If you can't drive down unit cost, you aren't going to be able to do anything.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,785 ✭✭✭thomasj


    BusConnects aims to overhaul the current bus system in the Dublin region by:

    building a network of “next generation” bus corridors on the busiest bus routes to make bus journeys faster, predictable and reliable

    introducing Bus Rapid Transit, a higher quality of bus system, on three of the busiest corridors

    completely redesigning the network of bus routes to provide a more efficient network, connecting more places and carrying more passengers;
    developing a state-of-the-art ticketing system using credit and debit cards or mobile phones to link with payment accounts and making payment much more convenient

    implementing a cashless payment system to vastly speed up passenger boarding times

    revamping the fare system to provide a simpler fare structure, allowing seamless movement between different transport services without financial penalty

    implementing a new bus livery providing a modern look and feel to the new bus system

    rolling out new bus stops with better signage and information and increasing the provision of additional bus shelters

    and transitioning - starting now - to a new bus fleet using low-emission vehicle technologies.

    http://www.busconnects.ie/about/

    From my reading of it it states 3 BRT routes, 11 conventional bus corridors and 3 orbital routes


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,542 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer




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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,584 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    A lot of good stuff there although the unions will not accept some of it, such as a new livery.

    One livery for all transport systems is common Europe wide but the companies and the unions will do everything to preserve their own brands over having a properly connected and integrated system.

    Lets see if the so called public transport stakeholders and the public companies involved in BusConnects will act in their own interests or for the good of the public, I'd be very surprised if it's the later, but if we want a properly functioning system it has to be.

    I've seen many posts from people in union and enthusiast circles saying that they will not tolerate TFI brand becoming the center brand and eroding the visibility of the Bus Eireann and Dublin Bus brand and they will be prepared to strike or take other action to stop it, because they believe that the NTA should be abolished.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,388 ✭✭✭StreetLight


    devnull wrote: »
    A lot of good stuff there although the unions will not accept a lot of it, such as a new livery.

    Damn-all to do with the unions. This is for the people.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,542 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Damn-all to do with the unions. This is for the people.
    Exactly - the new buses aren't owned by the operating companies but rather by the NTA. There may be an issue with older vehicles which are owned by the operating companies, but they are being removed each year.

    Union influence on the actual design of networks and service patterns will inevitably reduce. They will of course still have some say on the development of internal company rosters.

    I do think though that perhaps developing a single livery for Dublin City PSO services, and a separate one for Dublin Regional & National PSO services might be a better idea than one for everything - it makes it much easier for customers to differentiate between the two service types when waiting for a bus.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,584 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Damn-all to do with the unions. This is for the people.

    There was a new Transport for Ireland livery proposed for Bus Eireann PSO vehicles a number of years back and at the time there was a lot of pressure from the unions to drop the new livery and in the end there was a compromise which is the current PSO livery.

    At the end of the day the unions will fight to preserve the brand image and the control that their company, Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann have on transport in this country, they are not going to devolve bus stops and bus livery and more control to the NTA without a fight or a threat of strikes.

    The unions have been saying this for the last few years.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,584 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Exactly - the new buses aren't owned by the operating companies but rather by the NTA. There may be an issue with older vehicles which are owned by the operating companies, but they are being removed each year.

    Union influence on the actual design of networks and service patterns will inevitably reduce. They will of course still have some say on the development of internal company rosters.

    I agree with this - but I'm just going from what I have read on other forums, on social media and from people I know in the industry, even if I don't work in it - there is going to be considerable push-back about this from the unions, they simply are not going to allow something that will erode their power and control and hand more control over to the NTA.

    Have you seen how much the union are criticising the NTA over the past few years and how desperate that they are to bash them at any single chance that they have? Do you really think that they are going to just sit back and allow TFI to assume activities and services and responsibilities under their own banner instead of under the DB/BE banner without a fight?
    I do think though that perhaps developing a single livery for Dublin City PSO services, and a separate one for Dublin Regional & National PSO services might be a better idea than one for everything - it makes it much easier for customers to differentiate between the two service types when waiting for a bus.

    I would agree - but I would suggest it should be done by using the same design livery as each other, just with changing the color palette a little bit for example.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,542 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Times are changing - while certain things may not happen overnight, the reality is that the control of the PSO service is slowly (personally I still say glacially slowly) moving away from the operating companies and the unions to the NTA.

    The unions ultimately cannot have a say over vehicles that their employers don't own, and given that the NTA are mandated by law to change the livery, that argument is going to go out the window shortly.

    A lot of what the unions say in public is "white noise" to keep the members (and in particular the more hot headed ones) happy - I don't take everything literally. I fully expect this process not to be a walk in the park for the NTA, but this is a start of fundamental change in how our bus service is operated and managed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    lxflyer wrote: »
    The brochure linked to on the NTA site contains more detail (still limited):
    https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/BusConnects_Brochure_Final.pdf

    The map on page 13... surely a "high frequency service" is every 15 mins off peak and less than that peak? Not sure how anyone can consider every hour off peak high frequency.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,865 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    Shane Ross will need to gird his loins to cope with negativity from Unions about this.

    The city needs this so badly. I sincerely hope it is not delayed forever by infighting and power struggles.

    Sorry to sound so negative, but I'm very wary and at the same time hopeful that it will be delivered very soon.


  • Registered Users Posts: 710 ✭✭✭MrMorooka


    So is this the same thing as Swiftway or yet another new scheme?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,267 ✭✭✭h57xiucj2z946q


    Do you think the buses will ever be kitted out with a bicycle rack? I seen something like this when I was in Phoenix
    photo.jpg


    A side note, their light rail allowed bicycles on-board also, similar to:
    VTA_Light-Rail-bicycle-rack.jpg


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 24 Smithers19


    LXFlyer
    We will not allow our public services to be change to privatised services, therefore we will be rejecting this plan and will take industrial action if we feel the need, if you would like to open your eyes to what is happening, search for SL10's posts on IrishTransport DOT yuku DOT com who will tell you why this is bad.

    At the end of the day this is an attempt by the blueshirts to close down public services and hive them off to profit making exercises that only run at peak times, at eye watering fares and bangers of vehicles leading to chaos on our streets, removing the yellow livery will discriminate against people who are unable to see very well and could cause them to be involved in RTA's.

    We must see this for what it is - an attempt by the NTA to remove services from companies that operate on the publics behalf who provide a service no other company will provide, in order to make smaller government and to give the TD's a pay rise as they laugh all the way to the bank.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,785 ✭✭✭thomasj


    This is not privatisation this is government tender .whatever way the service is to run up to NTA. Whoever operates the servive just does what they're told.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 24 Smithers19


    No, Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann have served the public for decades and offered a good service, the aim of this is to take control away from the companies so it makes it easier for the NTA to completely remove a public bus service at a later date.

    The NTA has no experience in running a bus company and would lead to chaos on the streets and they must be stopped otherwise people are going to be left on the roadside.

    The NTA should be abolished.
    The simple fact is what is needed is a massive increase in subsidy to not be the lowest in Europe, nothing else is required, all the problems are funding related.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 24 Smithers19


    What should happen:
    - Extra funding
    - Have more buses on the road to increase PVR's, running times and reliability
    - New Orbital Routes (which the government first mentioned two years ago and still no move on them)
    - New ticket machines and streamlined fare structure (on a revenue neutral basis to DB)
    - Further QBC's, bus priority measures etc (which DB have been calling for years)

    What should not happen;
    - A powergrab by the NTA into Dublin Bus's business
    - Money spent on fancy liveries and branding that nobody wants or needs
    - Political interference resulting in benefical changes being watered down
    - An attempt to expand routes/services using the same funding/PVR's
    - Introduction of new routes with unrealistic running times and insuiffcent resources

    What will happen:
    - Please refer to the 'What should not happen' paragraph'!


  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,046 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    Smithers19 wrote: »
    What should happen:
    - Extra funding
    - Have more buses on the road to increase PVR's, running times and reliability
    - New Orbital Routes (which the government first mentioned two years ago and still no move on them)
    - New ticket machines and streamlined fare structure (on a revenue neutral basis to DB)
    - Further QBC's, bus priority measures etc (which DB have been calling for years)

    How much of a pay rise will the union want to implement all this? BE couldn't even get the drivers to flip a switch to increase fuel efficiency without union members kicking up a stink.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 24 Smithers19


    The Union will not allow it's members job prospects to be sold down a river in exchange for a privatisation agenda which is what we all know clearly is, that is why they want to reduce control of state companies in the industry.

    The drivers had no problem with flicking on a fuel switch, they just wanted to stop the race to the bottom and stand up for rural Ireland who the privates will not stand up for, sadly the government locked them out of work for almost a month.


  • Registered Users Posts: 710 ✭✭✭MrMorooka


    Smithers19 wrote: »
    removing the yellow livery will discriminate against people who are unable to see very well and could cause them to be involved in RTA's.

    Ah here. This has to be a písstake.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,662 Mod ✭✭✭✭dfx-


    new bus stops, corridors and new liveries - all a waste of time.

    Honestly this obsession about changing liveries is utterly stupid. The 13 and 15 and 40 will be late and bunching as ever (sometimes five 40s at a time) but in a new shiny colour! Woo!


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 24 Smithers19


    It's not a piss-take, what happened is that the yellow livery was chosen for hard of sight people.

    The unions will be letting imparied vision groups know about this change in the coming days in an attempt for them to apply pressure to stop this madness.


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,584 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Smithers19 wrote: »
    What should happen:
    - Extra funding
    - Have more buses on the road to increase PVR's, running times and reliability
    - New Orbital Routes (which the government first mentioned two years ago and still no move on them)
    - New ticket machines and streamlined fare structure (on a revenue neutral basis to DB)
    - Further QBC's, bus priority measures etc (which DB have been calling for years)

    What should not happen;
    - A powergrab by the NTA into Dublin Bus's business
    - Money spent on fancy liveries and branding that nobody wants or needs
    - Political interference resulting in benefical changes being watered down
    - An attempt to expand routes/services using the same funding/PVR's
    - Introduction of new routes with unrealistic running times and insuiffcent resources

    What will happen:
    - Please refer to the 'What should not happen' paragraph'!

    Essentially that list basically appears to be one which is about doing what suits Dublin Bus rather than doing what suits the public who actually use public transport, keeping the status quo as it is right now may suit the unions and it may suit the staff and the people working for Dublin Bus right now, but ultimately it does not serve the public and the people who use the service day in day out.

    Many of the things which have been proposed are nothing extraordinary. They are commonplace in most European cities and certainly commonplace within the cities that do public transport well for many years, integration is badly needed and the plan goes some way to achieving that with a common livery and also common branding rather than the appalling situation we have with bus stops now with many right beside each other from different companies in some cases.

    This country has an obligation to the people and the taxpayers to provide a public transport service that suits the public and not to keep individual operators happy. This is the fundamental requirement of a decent public transport system to put the public first, the unions bang on so much about how a publicly owned transport system is better than a privately ran one, whilst at the same time it feels like anything that benefits the public is blocked unless it suits them.


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