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BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,166 ✭✭✭Are Am Eye


    Its very exciting withbtalk of orbital corridors.
    Passengers can pretend that theyre in a space ship in orbit.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,281 ✭✭✭Stevek101


    MOD EDIT: Removed banned user comment.

    €1bn investment.. :pac:


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Stevek101 wrote: »
    The network redesign is taking place right now. Tender awarded to Jarrett Walker + Associates. He's over next week speaking at this https://www.engineersireland.ie/groups/societies/roads-and-transportation-society/events/reimagining-dublin-s-bus-network.aspx. Also the first public consultation is in the next fortnight.

    The reconfigured network should be in place by mid 2018.

    You mean the PR exercise of pretending to consult the public ;)

    All looks very low on detail, and I would be wary of welcoming anything san detail

    Orbital routes are desperately needed and its amusing to see TFI pursing their lips while noting that the public does not have a culture of making multiple transfer journeys like other cities when it was their network design that was the problem in the first place

    Although it seems TFI are going to continue to halve pedestrian space to accommodate cyclists. Cramming the public into ever narrower channels will work wonders for the ambiance of the city no doubt :mad:


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    I assume route reconfiguraton means stops will be culled too?


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,911 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    I assume route reconfiguraton means stops will be culled too?

    I know being an able bodied person that my desire for fewer bus stops will be ridiculed or dismissed even.

    But honestly the number of stops within a few hundred metres of each other is another big factor in the length of time it takes for a journey on DB.

    Was in Nice recently and the bus stops are soooo far apart. But it works. People work around it. I am sure it is the same in other cities/towns too.

    It is called Public Transport. That means transporting the greatest number of people in the shortest time to their destination.

    Or is it a local service for every house and avenue that has to be maintained, well the local TD will say so anyway.

    Time to get real here. The current system is unsustainable.

    With fewer stops, no cash etc. things will speed up a bit. A bit I said. I am hopeful though.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭brokenarms


    Hi. Quick question on this. Just to help me understand it a bit better.

    Will routes still cover large estates, Like Knocklyn or Darnsdale, or is the bus just going to go near the outskirts and staying on the express type bus lane?

    I cant see how this high speed service is going to be fast with a hundred speed ramps along the way as well as weaving though tallaght's square or Ballymun.

    Are Taxis going to clog up the new network?

    Are Garda going to start bus lane enforcement?

    How are they going to get away with removing parking all the way down the main artury streets like Clanbrassil or aungier street. If the clampers and garda dont enforse it now, whats makes the NTA think they will do it later?

    Is CIE going to retain its identity?


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    brokenarms wrote: »
    Hi. Quick question on this. Just to help me understand it a bit better.


    I cant see how this high speed service is going to be fast with a hundred speed ramps along the way as well as weaving though tallaght's square or Ballymun.

    Neither of the ballymun routes weave through ballymun, 4 goes straight up the ballymun road and the 13 loops around poppintree before it goes to harristown

    the route 1, on the other hand, goes on a tour of santry


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    I'm wondering if closely-spaced bus stops are actually a significant issue.

    I used to scratch my head and metaphorically shake my fist at the likes of the north circular road, Upper Rathmines Road etc.

    But then, I realised that many of those stops were used by disembarking passengers near the end of a route and didn't take much time.

    I see huge delays in the city centre area as the overwhelming factor in buses running late, and the slow speed of boarding as the significant factor in bunching.

    If prioritization was given to buses at all traffic light junctions, there would be less fluctuation from the bus that just made a run of green lights catching up with another that wasn't so lucky.

    A bus service is primarily for convenience and as a service and we should still look towards trains for real peak time capacity.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,579 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    The stop issue at peak hour is solved by having more express limited stop services to and from outlying areas.

    The ideal bus stop spacing is 400m per TfL guidelines and closer where demand dictates.

    There are clearly stops that should be removed such as the stop on Upper Rathmines Rd that was installed to facilitate the route variation that saw left turning route 14a buses onto Church Avenue. When that route ended, the stop should have been removed, but it wasn't and we have ended up with two stops within 100m of one another that were never supposed to be served together, and which have full Kassel kerbing installed..

    There are certainly other examples of locations where stops could be merged. But I don't think a mass culling of bus stops is the solution - yes I do think that they should be reviewed fully, from a location, design and safety perspective, but I'm not sure that will result in a huge cull to be honest.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,579 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    brokenarms wrote: »
    Hi. Quick question on this. Just to help me understand it a bit better.

    Will routes still cover large estates, Like Knocklyn or Darnsdale, or is the bus just going to go near the outskirts and staying on the express type bus lane?

    I cant see how this high speed service is going to be fast with a hundred speed ramps along the way as well as weaving though tallaght's square or Ballymun.

    Are Taxis going to clog up the new network?

    Are Garda going to start bus lane enforcement?

    How are they going to get away with removing parking all the way down the main artury streets like Clanbrassil or aungier street. If the clampers and garda dont enforse it now, whats makes the NTA think they will do it later?

    Is CIE going to retain its identity?

    Wait until we see the detailed plans - right now we have aspirations.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    One of things I dont think is a good idea is these new extremely long orbital routes.

    My belief is shorter routes work better as they're more efficient in the sense they have quicker journey times meaning that their timetable and frequency is better met.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 262 ✭✭boobycharlton


    More PR guff. I remember when the 51B replaced the 68's and was going to be part of Clondalkin's new and improved, high speed bus corridor back in the 90's, then the new and improved 13 and now it'll be the new and improved something else in a different colour. I can't fathom how they are going to have a dedicated, unbroken bus lane from the city to Clondalkin and back. There just isn't space for one, especially on the Naas Road and in Inchicore where delays happen most. Doubt the lads making these plans even know that though.


  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    I know being an able bodied person that my desire for fewer bus stops will be ridiculed or dismissed even.

    But honestly the number of stops within a few hundred metres of each other is another big factor in the length of time it takes for a journey on DB.

    Was in Nice recently and the bus stops are soooo far apart. But it works. People work around it. I am sure it is the same in other cities/towns too.

    It is called Public Transport. That means transporting the greatest number of people in the shortest time to their destination.

    Or is it a local service for every house and avenue that has to be maintained, well the local TD will say so anyway.

    Time to get real here. The current system is unsustainable.

    With fewer stops, no cash etc. things will speed up a bit. A bit I said. I am hopeful though.

    If you're ever been on the 9 on the Northside, you'll know what it's like to be on a bus that has too many bloody stops.

    Prospect Avenue - St. Theresa’s Place: 190m
    St. Theresa’s Place - Botanic Road: 290m

    3 stops in a distance of 480m.

    Griffitth Avenue - Glasnevin Tennis Club: 250m
    Glasnevin Tennis Club - St. Canice’s Road: 210m
    St. Canice’s Road - DCU: 170m
    DCU - St. Pappin’s Road: 160m
    St. Pappin’s Road - Glasnevin Avenue: 220m

    6 stops in a distance of 1km.


    Beneavin Drive - Beneavin Park: 230m
    Beneavin Park - Beneavin School: 180m
    Beneavin School - Ballygall Avenue: 350m

    4 stops in 760m.


    Clune Road - Clancy Avenue: 160m
    Clancy Avenue - Sycamore Road: 290m
    Sycamore Road - McKee Road: 130m

    4 stops in 580m.

    The last one there. It stops outside a house, sets off, turns left and stops 10 houses later!

    These aren't busy stops in medium or high density areas. All of them are outside sprawled semi-D estates. The 83 has the same problem but to a smaller extent. This part of network is where logic comes to die. Where this

    oO9TV02.png

    is deemed to be better that this

    qZ1aiT2.png

    In fact, the 9 doesn't have to serve Beneavin at all. It should stay on Glasnevin Avenue and they can extent the 11 — which terminates in the middle of a random housing estate just outside the bottom right of that picture — by 1km through the blue line.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭brokenarms


    How did you work out the distance between the stop so well?

    I have a few more.

    Terenure on the 49 out. Seems like 20m from one stop to another.

    Killinarden estate. seems like 50m between stops at the top of the hill at the last bend outbound.

    Outside Crumlin hospital outbound. Has a stop at each end of the lights(with pedestrian crossing.) The bus has to leave the correct lane and fight back into it to get to the kerb..

    Rathmines road is another stupid area where the stops are so close, the bikes have to play leap frog.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,476 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    That map in the document has the 7 back on Rochestown Ave...


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,776 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    You can knock out a few stops for sure, but what difference will it really make? Most of the time, the stops don't have anybody getting on or off. The bus doesn't even slow down.

    The much bigger issue at the moment is the 'dwell time' at the stops.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,502 ✭✭✭john boye


    Peregrine wrote: »
    If you're ever been on the 9 on the Northside, you'll know what it's like to be on a bus that has too many bloody stops.

    Prospect Avenue - St. Theresa’s Place: 190m
    St. Theresa’s Place - Botanic Road: 290m

    3 stops in a distance of 480m.

    Griffitth Avenue - Glasnevin Tennis Club: 250m
    Glasnevin Tennis Club - St. Canice’s Road: 210m
    St. Canice’s Road - DCU: 170m
    DCU - St. Pappin’s Road: 160m
    St. Pappin’s Road - Glasnevin Avenue: 220m

    6 stops in a distance of 1km.


    Beneavin Drive - Beneavin Park: 230m
    Beneavin Park - Beneavin School: 180m
    Beneavin School - Ballygall Avenue: 350m

    4 stops in 760m.


    Clune Road - Clancy Avenue: 160m
    Clancy Avenue - Sycamore Road: 290m
    Sycamore Road - McKee Road: 130m

    4 stops in 580m.

    The last one there. It stops outside a house, sets off, turns left and stops 10 houses later!

    These aren't busy stops in medium or high density areas. All of them are outside sprawled semi-D estates. The 83 has the same problem but to a smaller extent. This part of network is where logic comes to die. Where this

    oO9TV02.png

    is deemed to be better that this

    qZ1aiT2.png

    In fact, the 9 doesn't have to serve Beneavin at all. It should stay on Glasnevin Avenue and they can extent the 11 — which terminates in the middle of a random housing estate just outside the bottom right of that picture — by 1km through the blue line.

    Don't get me started. The 2 outbound stops less than 100m from each other in Perrystown on the 150 are my favourite. Honourable mention too for the 2 outbound stops on Limekiln Rd and the 2 literally around the corner from one another on Belgard Square.


  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    brokenarms wrote: »
    How did you work out the distance between the stop so well?

    I have a few more.

    Terenure on the 49 out. Seems like 20m from one stop to another.

    Killinarden estate. seems like 50m between stops at the top of the hill at the last bend outbound.

    Outside Crumlin hospital outbound. Has a stop at each end of the lights(with pedestrian crossing.) The bus has to leave the correct lane and fight back into it to get to the kerb..

    Rathmines road is another stupid area where the stops are so close, the bikes have to play leap frog.

    Google Maps. Right click to measure distance. It won't be accurate to the metre but accurate enough over those distances.
    You can knock out a few stops for sure, but what difference will it really make? Most of the time, the stops don't have anybody getting on or off. The bus doesn't even slow down.

    The much bigger issue at the moment is the 'dwell time' at the stops.
    Simpler network, shorter journeys, fewer stops to maintain, less of a nightmare for cyclists and motorists. I've found it to stop at most of those stops only to take on/let off one or two passengers. It's infuriating seeing my journey lengthened so that some people don't have to walk more than 2 minutes to catch a bus.

    The difference is that, due to a combination of too many stops, too many detours and too long dwell times, I don't get the bus anymore.

    Dwell times is a big issue and, yes, bigger than this but this is still an annoying an unnecessary issue.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    Some of the worst examples of stops being close together really are non-issue, because they're so rarely used. Upper Rathmines Road is an especially pertinent example, and this issue would if anything unnecessarily distract from real issues like a lack of dedicated road space on critical corridors or crazy route diversions for some routes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,056 ✭✭✭✭Tusky


    Stevek101 wrote: »
    The network redesign is taking place right now. Tender awarded to Jarrett Walker + Associates. He's over next week speaking at this https://www.engineersireland.ie/groups/societies/roads-and-transportation-society/events/reimagining-dublin-s-bus-network.aspx. Also the first public consultation is in the next fortnight.

    The reconfigured network should be in place by mid 2018.

    RTE news said public consultation next year - no idea why such a delay...


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,776 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    I fear that a lot of time will be spent on easily soluble but unimportant issues (like the distance between bus stops in outlying areas and also route alignment) and little time will be spent on difficult but very important issues (like frequency and ticketing).


  • Registered Users Posts: 135 ✭✭mortimer33


    I would hope that care is taken in planning the intersection of the radial / orbital routes to ensure that the stops are located close together. Would be great to see some sort of interchange station at these points where several bus routes would merge.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Lads, starting timing dwell times on your bus journeys. The real killer is, buses having to maneuverer across traffic and other buses to pull in and out of stops, cash payers and people using the drivers as general query desks.

    In that order.

    The close stops in the burbs tend not to be too bad.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,776 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    You would think that that is important, but really it won't make a lot of difference. Even if the stops are 3 or 4 minutes apart, it won't matter, if (a) the frequency is high (every 7 or more services per hour, say) (b) the service is evenly spread and (c) the ticketing makes sense.

    It will be really hard to sort out the frequency and the ticketing. But these are the critical things.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,579 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Peregrine wrote: »
    The 83 has the same problem but to a smaller extent. This part of network is where logic comes to die. Where this

    oO9TV02.png

    is deemed to be better that this

    qZ1aiT2.png

    In fact, the 9 doesn't have to serve Beneavin at all. It should stay on Glasnevin Avenue and they can extent the 11 ? which terminates in the middle of a random housing estate just outside the bottom right of that picture ? by 1km through the blue line.

    That set of routings was caused by the merger of the 19 and 83 into the new 83, and the 19a was renumbered the 9.

    The removal of the 19, and therefore any bus from Ballygall Road East caused uproar in the area, and the deviation in the 9 along Beneavin Road was kept to maintain the link from the Ballygall Road East area to Phibsboro. Extending the 11 would do nothing to deliver that.

    The 11 terminates where it does based partly on historical reasons (Wadelai estate has been a terminus since dot) and because it offers somewhere where the bus can loop around and park safely on a side road.

    Similar significant local opposition resulted in the 83 being split into the 83 and 83a so that a service could be restored to Tolka Estate.

    Cutting direct long established transport links is something that is very difficult to sell to people as they will see that as cuts, and that's going to be a major challenge for this exercise, as will delivering similar overall journey times in the event of people having to change buses en route where they used to have a direct connection.

    But that's what the consultants are hired to design and deliver!


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,911 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    The big sell should be speed of journey. That's what everyone wants. If that involves culling some stops so be it.

    But the driver should have NO interraction with the passengers. No cash or Leap interraction for starters. I don't know how they will get over the tourist/local information they provide though. Great as it is, it slows down everyone's journey!


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,579 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Tusky wrote: »
    RTE news said public consultation next year - no idea why such a delay...

    They have to actually come up with the plans first - this is not something that can be done overnight - that's going to involve studying the city, getting an understanding of the network and main flows of people. Those flows will be existing ones on public transport, and ones that people currently make by car.

    After all of that, they have to come up with what would be the ideal solution, and then match that with what can actually be resourced (the two will never be identical).

    At that point then they can go to public consultation, and see what that throws up and then try to come up with a final solution that is the best available.

    You're never going to please everyone with it - that's impossible with public transport, but if something can be created that meets the needs of the majority then you're getting somewhere.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    One thing I can't understand is at school times at some schools there's students from the same school getting on at multiple different stops which are further from the school than the others why? Also many schoolchildren are still paying cash grrrrr.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,911 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    I suppose the car park owners will object to anything put forward. As usual.

    Some of that billion euro being mooted for this initiative should be used to buy them all out and redevelop them as something that doesn't involve cars.

    Fat chance I know. But really.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 894 ✭✭✭Bray Head


    spockety wrote: »
    Bray Head wrote: »
    The map suggests that one of the BRT corridors will go from Terenure through Harold's Cross.

    A label is misplaced however, implying that it will go through Rathmines.

    Curious to see how they are going to manage that.. surely it's not wide enough the whole way for what they claim the BRT routes will look like... Segregated cycle lanes etc.
    The problem is that the corridor from Terenure to Lord Edward St has several bottlenecks. It is two lanes for most, three in parts and four in for the rest. There is very little on-street parking left to be got rid of and the pavements cannot really be narrowed either.

    Some engineering changes could save maybe 2 to 4 minutes over the whole stretch, but short of knocking several hundred houses and premises there just isn't much scope for radical improvement. This is the case on lots of the other orbital routes provided.
    Some other reactions: the commitment to end pay-the-driver and move to a simpler fare structure is brilliant. This is where real productivity savings will be made all over the network.

    A commitment to fewer stops would have been nice. I am a bit sceptical about the P+R ideas. It works for rail but buses I feel are just too slow and unreliable to be worth getting out of your car for, once you're already in it.


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