Cyclist on motorised bike banned for three years for drink cycling

detones

http://www.thejournal.ie/auto-draft-1495806037-3410549-May2017/

I know this lad was flutered drunk but hopefully there will be more clamping down on those petrol yokes. Interesting Judge said he needed insurance too for electric bike. Not sure about that.

.........

In court, the accused outlined how he paid between €400 and €600 for the 48cc engine, that can travel at a maximum of 30km per hour. The bike’s engine runs on petrol.

Boyce told the court how the man has now purchased an electric bike.
However, Judge Desmond Zaidan told the accused that he will also need insurance for an electric bike.

Ah yes the poor old Irish insurance industry must be looked after.

Beasty

If it's a "legal" electric bike no insurance is required. The judge appears to have misinformed himself there.

ED E

Beasty wrote: »

If it's a "legal" electric bike no insurance is required. The judge appears to have misinformed himself there.

Its not though, claiming it was a pedal assist was BS, its a "home made motorbike" for lack of a better term. 48cc wont win any races but it can totally move with a light frame.

Lumen

ED E wrote: »

Its not though, claiming it was a pedal assist was BS, its a "home made motorbike" for lack of a better term. 48cc wont win any races but it can totally move with a light frame.

You're mixing up the bike he was caught on (48cc petrol) with the bike he has now (electric, specification unknown).

District court judges are rarely the sharpest knives in the block.

cython

Lumen wrote: »

You're mixing up the bike he was caught on (48cc petrol) with the bike he has now (electric, specification unknown).

District court judges are rarely the sharpest knives in the block.

Judge Zaidan also seems to take particular pleasure from trying to be heavy handed with traffic cases, and perhaps this extends to his opinions around cycling also....

Tenzor07

Yea: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=103614301&postcount=6744

At least the Journo kept the comments section closed... I can imagine the usual "tax and insure all of them.." Brigade!

Kaisr Sose

There was significant previous that would have influenced the judge here. What is a MPV in this context? - multi purpose vehicle ?

Alcohol reading off the charts at 203 microgrammes!

I wonder how many drivers of those 48cc 'vehicles' ever end up in court for no registration, no NCT, no licence and no insurance?

Ray Palmer

Beasty wrote: »

If it's a "legal" electric bike no insurance is required. The judge appears to have misinformed himself there.

It appears the Journal didn't report this as it happened. The judge appears to be saying he doesn't know the law and needs clarity.

http://www.leinsterleader.ie/news/home/251607/kilcullen-man-on-motorised-bicycle-was-drink-driving.html


The thing is there is EU legislation which we are part of that clearly states the rules. Can't propel over 25k and must be pedal assist in the basic form.

There needs to be more awareness among the Gardai. It is a matter of time before there is an accident with a non-compliant bike and somebody will get a nasty surprise as they will be done for driving without insurance or a licence.

I have a pedelec myself and know the models available and there are ons of illegal ones being used and modified ones too. There is a guy on my route that has he same model bike as me and he flies by me barely pedalling. He has the mod leads added to the bike so it gives more speed. He is effectively able to go 50kph and I think he is doing that at least part of the journey.

When I was looking one shop in Dublin was selling bikes that are illegal to use without insurance and licence. Was asking the guy in the shop how was he able to sell them. He told me it was a "grey area" and the cops would have to know the type of bike so you would never get caught. So his grey area was basically you won't get caught so it is fine. A few days later I saw a guy ridding one of the bikes and told him the actual law on their use and he was horrified that he had not been told when buying it. Saw him a few days later with a different bike as he brought the other one back. Still see some of them about and they aren't cheap €3-4k

Ray Palmer

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

There was significant previous that would have influenced the judge here. What is a MPV in this context? - multi purpose vehicle ?

Alcohol reading off the charts at 203 microgrammes!

I wonder how many drivers of those 48cc 'vehicles' ever end up in court for no registration, no NCT, no licence and no insurance?

Motor Propelled Vehicle

Kaisr Sose

Ireland is great for forty shades of grey areas!

The shop is legally liable if they are selling items which require licencing /insurance and not informing people. No grey area there.

I think one of these past me once in a cycle lane and I was amazed how fast it was. I actually thought it was unsafe for it to be in a cycle lane - they are generally not designed for close to 50kph coating (unless downhill of course)

cython

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Motor Propelled Vehicle

Mechanically propelled vehicle, actually

.........

Ray Palmer wrote: »

It appears the Journal didn't report this as it happened. The judge appears to be saying he doesn't know the law and needs clarity.

Pretty typical of the poor standard of Irish 'journalism' these days.

jive

Those motorised bicycles are fairly sketchy at best, surely they're illegal? Saw a guy come past me the other day in Dublin city centre on a mountain bike, probably untouched since the mid 90s by the look of it, blaze past at about 40kmph up a hill - I'd say the tyres, wheels and breaks are just a day from retirement!!

They do look like good craic tho, couldn't believe my eyes when I first saw one fly by

Moflojo

detones wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/auto-draft-1495806037-3410549-May2017/

I know this lad was flutered drunk but hopefully there will be more clamping down on those petrol yokes. Interesting Judge said he needed insurance too for electric bike. Not sure about that.

I'm being pedantic here, but why is it being reported that a cyclist was banned when clearly it was a motorcyclist?

Now I'm being paranoid, but why is this being reported at all, if not simply to fulfil an anti-cycling agenda amongst some members of the media? Would "motorcyclist banned for drink-driving offence" make headline news?

.........

Moflojo wrote: »

I'm being pedantic here, but why is it being reported that a cyclist was banned when clearly it was a motorcyclist?

Now I'm being paranoid, but why is this being reported at all, if not simply to fulfil an anti-cycling agenda amongst some members of the media? Would "motorcyclist banned for drink-driving offence" make headline news?

The journal is showing itself up for the rag it is here.

Samuel T. Cogley

Say what you want about Z but I, and I know others, lift the foot when traveling through his District.

Electric bikes do not need to be taxed or insured. The judge needs to go and look this uo

iwillhtfu

I passed this fella coming into Kilcullen last summer or if not him another very like him. The racket out of the bloody bike he pulled out of a side road on to a main road and to be fair it did look like he had to pedal to get it moving before the motor kicked in.

I found him useful to draft behind and passed him at about 50 km/h just coming down from that quarry Naas side of kilcullen. He certainly wasn't going faster than 50 anyway and it seemed to be flat out. Not excusing the drink thing at all btw.

Anyway I regularly see this bike outside a pub in kilcullen and I'm almost certain it wasn't to long ago I saw it either.

Skatedude

theValheru853 wrote: »

Electric bikes do not need to be taxed or insured. The judge needs to go and look this uo

If it's a electric assist with pedal assist only with a max power rating of 250watts and power assist limited to 25km/h, then it's fine.

But if it one of the many electric assist over 250watts which are good up to 45km/h , then you do need tax and insurance, But the shops are saying you don't when buying

Ardennes1944

These bikes are all over the place here in Switzerland, they're called mofas and are treated the same as 50cc mopeds.
They can use cyclist lanes but are limited to 30kph. A quick pedal to get them going.

Skatedude

Skatedude wrote:

If it's a electric assist with pedal assist only with a max power rating of 250watts and power assist limited to 25km/h, then it's fine.

Skatedude wrote:

But if it one of the many electric assist over 250watts which are good up to 45km/h , then you do need tax and insurance, But the shops are saying you don't when buying

Did the judge know the type of electric bike when he said that? Or is he making a blanket statment?

cython

Moflojo wrote: »

I'm being pedantic here, but why is it being reported that a cyclist was banned when clearly it was a motorcyclist?

Now I'm being paranoid, but why is this being reported at all, if not simply to fulfil an anti-cycling agenda amongst some members of the media? Would "motorcyclist banned for drink-driving offence" make headline news?

It's not a road legal motorcycle either though, so responsible motorcyclists could get just as up in arms over him being lumped in with them. The fact of the matter is that it was an illegally modified bicycle involved in the case, so IMHO it's reasonable to describe him as a cyclist.

As you concede yourself, I can't help but feel there is an element of paranoia on your side here, though I'd agree that the quality/(in)accuracy of plenty of other parts of the article as a whole shows up the journal for the rage that it is.

cython

theValheru853 wrote: »

Did the judge know the type of electric bike when he said that? Or is he making a blanket statment?

If you read the Leinster Leader report on it, it states he said that he needed clarification from the state on it, so I would take this aspect of the journal writeup with a drum of salt!

Mr. Grieves

There's more and more of these illegal motorbikes popping up around Dublin, I'd like to see the guards crack down on the idiots who ride them, and the suppliers. Lots of ads on adverts like this:

https://pushbikeengine.ie/

rubadub

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

The shop is legally liable if they are selling items which require licencing /insurance and not informing people. No grey area there.

Are they really required to inform people? obviously they know fine well what they are doing is wrong, but is there a legal requirement to inform people? if you buy a motorbike is the seller legally obliged to tell you it needs a licence & insurance. Though some shops are saying there is no requirement so I could imagine that is illegal.

The 25km/hr limit is very low, in other countries it is higher, 32 km/h is a common one. If it was higher many people would not bother modifying them, and would be happy enough with 32km/h which I think is very a reasonable limit. It is probably one of the main reasons they are not as popular as I would have expected them to be, people might go for a test drive/cycle on them and not be impressed.

In the other thread I was saying there were calls for it to be increased. Clare Daly asked for it, who coincidentally had a run in with the same judge.

Clare Daly brands judge who told her to 'stand up straight' as 'ludicrous'

http://irishcycle.com/2015/07/08/transport-minister-questioned-on-powerful-electric-bicycles/

TRANSPORT MINISTER QUESTIONED ON POWERFUL ELECTRIC BICYCLES
JULY 8, 2015

Electrical assisted bicycles are currently restricted to 25km/h before the motor stops helping the user from going faster, but it seems there is lobbying for change in Ireland.

A growing number of European and other bicycle manufacturers are creating fast electric bicycles which can reach speeds of up to 40km/h with little effort.

A parliamentary question asked by Clare Daly TD (Dublin North, United Left) was told that minister has no current plan to increase the speed allowed. It is unclear who Daly was asking the question for.

Deputy Daly asked: ?To ask the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport if he has considered increasing the speed limits for electric pedelecs from 15 mph (25 km/h) and increasing the engine size to above 250 watts in view of the fact that the current limits were set in 1978.?

In reply, the minister for transport, Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael), wrote: ?I have no proposals at this time for amending legislation in relation to pedelecs (electrically assisted bicycles). I will however keep the matter under review.?

Electric bicycles can exceed 25 km/h if the user is pedaling hard, but it?s at that speed that the electric assistance should start to cut out. If the electric assistance continues or if the electric motor operates without the user peddling, the electric bicycle is then considered a normal mechanically propelled vehicle ? which requires a licence to use, and both vehicle registration and motor tax to operate on a public road. This law is followed nearly identically across the EU Member States.

There is no ?grey area? in the law, electrical bicycles which are rated over the allowed legal limits are not viewed as bicycles but should be treated as classes of electric scooters or mopeds.

In the Netherlands, the bicycle industry is lobbying the Dutch government to row back on their plans to treat faster electric bicycles as mopeds by 2017, which would require the use of motorcycle helmets. The industry argues that most fast electric bicycles won?t reach Dutch moped max speeds of 45km/h and so are not directly comparable to mopeds.

Bicycle industry news publications in recent years have reported on conflicting lobbying at EU level ? with representatives of cycling and the bike industry, arguing different ways. One side says that that more electric cycles will endanger the safety of ?conventional cyclists? and want the current limits to remain in place. While the other side have argued that faster electric bicycles would make longer distance commutes more attractive by bicycle and that would have environmental and congestion tackling benefits.

Del2005

Moflojo wrote: »

I'm being pedantic here, but why is it being reported that a cyclist was banned when clearly it was a motorcyclist?

Now I'm being paranoid, but why is this being reported at all, if not simply to fulfil an anti-cycling agenda amongst some members of the media? Would "motorcyclist banned for drink-driving offence" make headline news?

The issue is that in this country people are riding them as bicycles so they are being called bicycles by the press. If they had been on a moped then the press would have said a biker was done. But the press are only reporting what a lot of people believe which is that these are legal in Ireland, which they aren't, not helped by them being treated differently in other countries as below.

Ardennes1944 wrote: »

These bikes are all over the place here in Switzerland, they're called mofas and are treated the same as 50cc mopeds.
They can use cyclist lanes but are limited to 30kph. A quick pedal to get them going.

AFAIR Segways aren't legal in this country yet there are companies offering tours on them.

.........

Weepsie wrote: »

I'd take anything from the journal with a pinch of salt. It's a site full of plagiarism, and even then they get things wrong on a consistent basis.

Then there's there awful sponsored pieces and property porn nonsense and some seriously poorly written opinion pieces too.

Calling it journalism is an insult

this rubbish the journal printed makes this thread a waste of everyones time

rubadub

just today

http://irishcycle.com/2017/05/27/gardai-warn-bikes-with-petrol-engines-attached-are-low-powered-motorcycles/

GARDAI WARN BIKES WITH PETROL ENGINES ATTACHED ARE LOW-POWERED MOTORCYCLES
MAY 27, 2017

Bicycles with engines attached and those with electrically assisted motors which do not cut out at 25km/h are classed as low-powered motorcycles and need to follow reverent legal requirements, Gardai have said.

The legal requirements include that the rider must be over the age of 16, and have valid driving licence, third party insurance, a helmet, a motor tax certificate and a licence plate.

The Garda press office issued the force?s view to IrishCycle.com earlier this year and we are publishing it now after a court case last week at Naas District Court in which a man was using a ?bicycle? with a 48cc petrol engine attached to it and was convicted drink driving.

Cycling is concerned a types of ?driving? in legal terms, but while drink driving can also apply to people in charge of a bicycle, it is understood the man was simply convicted of drink driving.

Because of the 48cc petrol engine on the bike, it was classed as a ?mechanically propelled vehicle?, the legal definition for most vehicles with a motor. The man?s solicitor said that his client did not think it was mechanically propelled vehicle but that he now accepts that it is.

Some media outlets have reported that the judge in case said it was his view that electric bicycles are also covered as mechanically propelled vehicles, but the Leinster Leader reported this as more of an issue of a debate between Judge Desmond Zaidan, the garda inspector and the defence solicitor. The judge said that the State should be asked to come forward with greater clarity on the matter.

Earlier this year, Sergeant Alan Frawley of the Garda press office, said the key issue was if bicycles continued to move without pedalling.

Most electric bicycles on sale in Ireland are classed as ?electrically assisted bicycle? because they need the user to keep pedalling for the bike to keep moving ? the electric motor only acts as a boost to pedalling and the bicycle will slow down and stop after pedalling stops.

Sergeant Frawley said: ?The key to whether or not a vehicle is an mechanically propelled vehicle for the purposes of the Road Traffic Act 1961 lies with its means of propulsion. Each vehicle has to be looked at on its own merits. Thus if a vehicle is or can be propelled other than manually, it is an mechanically propelled vehicle for the purposes of the 1961 Act. E.g. a motor bike is propelled by a petrol engine not by pedalling; or a motorised scooter as it can be totally propelled by its engine.?

?If a vehicle has a source of power which only aids a vehicle?s manual propulsion and cannot propel the vehicle on its own, then the vehicle is not an mpv for the purposes of the 1961 Act. Into this category would fall an electrically assisted bicycle. This is because the vehicle stops when the pedalling stops,? said Sergeant Frawley.

He added: ?In relation to the electric units, electrically assisted pedal cycles are commonly referred to as ?pedelecs? to describe bicycles with electric motors or batteries too small to drive them without pedalling. Their speed is limited to 25km per hour and the motor cuts out if pedalling ceases. In contrast, mopeds can move without assistance of pedals. For guidance, if an electric bike can be operated without pedalling, it is a moped, ie a low-powered motorcycle and is subject to motor tax.?

In 2002, The Irish Times reported that the Department of Environment ?declared that electrically-assisted bicycles were not liable for motor tax following a review of the status of the machines within the terms of Ireland?s road traffic laws.?

A department spokesman is quoted as stating: ?This is because the electric power of a ?pedelec? only assists the pedalling effort and is not a source of propulsion in its own right. On this basis, pedelecs are not subject to the legal requirements relating to compulsory insurance and road tax.?

It is unclear to IrishCycle.com where or if the top speed of an electric bicycle is outlined in the Road Traffic Acts. It is defined in the Finance Act 2008, which states: ??pedelec? means a bicycle or tricycle which is equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of 0.25 kilowatts, of which output is progressively reduced and finally cut off as the vehicle reaches a speed of 25 kilometres per hour, or sooner if the cyclist stops pedalling.?

Tenzor07

Article by Cian Ginty may be a lot better than the Journo, who just copy and paste news items: http://irishcycle.com/2017/05/27/gardai-warn-bikes-with-petrol-engines-attached-are-low-powered-motorcycles/

Anyways, yea it's about time the Gards crack down on these petrol engine kits, they seem to be in use mostly by people on rusty old and/or cheap MTB's without disc brakes at least...

The new Specialized Turbo Vado top's out at 45kph, which is something i'd want if I had the money to buy an ebike...

ted1

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Beasty wrote: »

If it's a "legal" electric bike no insurance is required. The judge appears to have misinformed himself there.

It appears the Journal didn't report this as it happened. The judge appears to be saying he doesn't know the law and needs clarity.

http://www.leinsterleader.ie/news/home/251607/kilcullen-man-on-motorised-bicycle-was-drink-driving.html


The thing is there is EU legislation which we are part of that clearly states the rules. Can't propel over 25k and must be pedal assist in the basic form.

There needs to be more awareness among the Gardai. It is a matter of time before there is an accident with a non-compliant bike and somebody will get a nasty surprise as they will be done for driving without insurance or a licence.

I have a pedelec myself and know the models available and there are ons of illegal ones being used and modified ones too. There is a guy on my route that has he same model bike as me and he flies by me barely pedalling. He has the mod leads added to the bike so it gives more speed. He is effectively able to go 50kph and I think he is doing that at least part of the journey.

When I was looking one shop in Dublin was selling bikes that are illegal to use without insurance and licence. Was asking the guy in the shop how was he able to sell them. He told me it was a "grey area" and the cops would have to know the type of bike so you would never get caught. So his grey area was basically you won't get caught so it is fine. A few days later I saw a guy ridding one of the bikes and told him the actual law on their use and he was horrified that he had not been told when buying it. Saw him a few days later with a different bike as he brought the other one back. Still see some of them about and they aren't cheap €3-4k

Apparently the law was changed as a result of a European directive and the Ines that go 45kmh are now legal

GM228

ted1 wrote: »

Apparently the law was changed as a result of a European directive and the Ines that go 45kmh are now legal

Only the EU technical specifications changed which has nothing to do with legal or illegal.

An electric bicycle which can go over 25 km/h but under 45km/h and power was over 1000W but under 4500W is classed as a "light two wheel powered vehicle", over that and it's classed as a "two wheel moped".

ted1

GM228 wrote: »

ted1 wrote: »

Apparently the law was changed as a result of a European directive and the Ines that go 45kmh are now legal

Only the EU technical specifications changed which has nothing to do with legal or illegal.

An electric bicycle which can go over 25 km/h but under 45km/h and power was over 1000W but under 4500W is classed as a "light two wheel powered vehicle", over that and it's classed as a "two wheel moped".

No, someone posted an updated S.I before which allowed 45kmh.

GM228

ted1 wrote: »

No, someone posted an updated S.I before which allowed 45kmh.

You need to refresh yourself to that someones post

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=102419098&postcount=29

Capt'n Midnight

I wouldn't be mad keen on using the term cyclist for someone who is using a 48cc bike because

the accused had previous convictions, including a ban from driving for 10 years for not having insurance, five months in prison for not being of good behaviour and also a previous drink driving conviction in 2008.

48cc doesn't sound like much but IIRC 51cc is enough for a motorway

Magilla Gorilla

I was in court. Neither the judge nor the garda inspector knew the law and it was an unconnected barrister who had the relevant legislation to hand. The judge had no idea that these machines have existed for years. The defendant's solicitor made the case that his client thought he was complying with his ban as the bike was advertised for sale as needing no licence, tax or insurance.

Kaisr Sose

It must have been interesting to have been in court. I laugh at how stupid people will claim to be when it suits them. The defendant was smart enough to think they could beat the driving ban but not smart enough to know it's always buyer beware when someone is telling you something in order to get you to part with cash. The fact that it had an engine probably never entered their head ....somehow, I don't buy it. Alternativefacts!

iwillhtfu

If it is the bike I'm thinking of it isn't one of these ones you buy with an engine pre installed it looked to be an engine retro fitted to an old almost highnelly style frame. I think they sell kits for this.

Kaisr Sose

That's them. Lethal yokes! All the torque of an engine through a frame, brakes and wheels that were never designed for those forces. And the noise of them ..."a good 'cycle' ruined"

H.E. Pennypacker

iwillhtfu wrote: »

If it is the bike I'm thinking of it isn't one of these ones you buy with an engine pre installed it looked to be an engine retro fitted to an old almost highnelly style frame. I think they sell kits for this.

It was fitted to what appeared to be a mountain bike. It did seem more than a bit unstable when a hand signal was used. He has a nice electric bike now (assuming that the owner of the electric bike that I saw yesterday is using the same parking spot).

FWIW, the user in question always wore a high viz vest. That might be more relevant to another thread though :P

iwillhtfu

H.E. Pennypacker wrote: »

It was fitted to what appeared to be a mountain bike. It did seem more than a bit unstable when a hand signal was used. He has a nice electric bike now (assuming that the owner of the electric bike that I saw yesterday is using the same parking spot).

FWIW, the user in question always wore a high viz vest. That might be more relevant to another thread though :P

I've seen that one knocking about also. I think there's a pair of them. The mountain bike may well have been the replacement for the original and yes always a hi viz no helmet. Safety first :eek:

Pinch Flat

I used to work in city west and there was a fella used to head out through Lucan on one of these. Handy for drafting on a windy morning. :pac: