Rent increase but lease signed in December

Books4you

Hi all,

I am living in my apartment 5 and a half years. There has been no increase in rent since i moved in. I sign a new lease every year because i need a new one to get a parking permit so i signed a new lease at the start of December '16.

Today i got a letter in the post saying rent increase starting from June. Is this legal or do they have to wait until December to up the rent? Or does part 4 tenancy over rule this?

Thanks in advance

Ms Doubtfire1

are you in a rent pressure zone?

Books4you

Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »

are you in a rent pressure zone?

No I'm not

Ms Doubtfire1

ok. Well, technically he can't increase but morally? You've had the same rent for more than 5 years and you're getting a new lease every year which comes at a cost to the owner - unless it's a very large increase I personally wouldn't have a problem with it.

Books4you

Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »

ok. Well, technically he can't increase but morally? You've had the same rent for more than 5 years and you're getting a new lease every year which comes at a cost to the owner - unless it's a very large increase I personally wouldn't have a problem with it.

Well if it was a nice landlord i would agree. It's in receivership with years and trying to get anything done is ridiculous. The building is just not looked after. I look after my place v well. V clean and newly painted at my own expense. It's a €75 increase so no not huge and is manageable, just hate to give it to them when you get no respect in return.

Browney7

Realistically they're looking to up the rent in case RPZ legislation is applied countrywide to protect themselves. Is he reviewing up to market rent or still below? Does letter have comparable properties listed?

Does the landlord not increasing the rent at each opportunity available constitute a rent review? I'm sure more knowledgeable people will advise on this but bear in mind, the next rent will be set for two years so if you can get a smallish increase you'll be doing well in the grand scheme of things.

Edit, posted before seeing response above

Ms Doubtfire1

Books4you wrote: »

Well if it was a nice landlord i would agree. It's in receivership with years and trying to get anything done is ridiculous. The building is just not looked after. I look after my place v well. V clean and newly painted at my own expense. It's a €75 increase so no not huge and is manageable, just hate to give it to them when you get no respect in return.

That I can fully understand. Mind you, he might refuse giving you a new lease at year end so you can't get parking if you are being difficult. He doesn't have to give you a lease, you're in part4.

Books4you

Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »

That I can fully understand. Mind you, he might refuse giving you a new lease at year end so you can't get parking if you are being difficult. He doesn't have to give you a lease, you're in part4.

Yes that is a good point. And can I ask you if I do sign new lease does it stay at that price for 2 years or is that just in the pressure zones?

Paulw

If your rent was increased in Dec 2016, then under the previous legislation (which ended on 17th Jan 2017), then they couldn't increase rent for 24 months.

You will need to go review the information on the RTB website, to confirm your status.

Also, signing a new lease doesn't negate the fact that you have Part IV tenancy rights too.

spaceHopper

I think you have two arguments.
You are in a fixed term lease so the rent is fixed for a year.
You are entitled to 90 days notice of a rent increase

Paulw

spaceHopper wrote: »

I think you have two arguments.
You are in a fixed term lease so the rent is fixed for a year.
You are entitled to 90 days notice of a rent increase

The rent is fixed for 2 years (24 months), if rent was set before 23rd Dec 2016.

"A landlord can only review the rent once in any 24 month period, and cannot review within 24 months of the commencement of the tenancy except in limited circumstances such as a complete refurbishment of the property which affects the market rent of the dwelling. "
https://www.rtb.ie/rent-pressure-zones/rent-certainty-measures

mrslancaster

spaceHopper wrote: »

I think you have two arguments.
You are in a fixed term lease so the rent is fixed for a year.
You are entitled to 90 days notice of a rent increase

can someone explain why the 90 day notice cannot be issued until the fixed term expires?

Books4you

Paulw wrote: »

The rent is fixed for 2 years (24 months), if rent was set before 23rd Dec 2016.

"A landlord can only review the rent once in any 24 month period, and cannot review within 24 months of the commencement of the tenancy except in limited circumstances such as a complete refurbishment of the property which affects the market rent of the dwelling. "
https://www.rtb.ie/rent-pressure-zones/rent-certainty-measures

I signed it on 1st Dec '16 so then its 1st Dec '18 before it can be increased? I hate arguments to be honest and would rather just pay but I don't want to be the fool either!

The_Conductor

Paulw wrote: »

The rent is fixed for 2 years (24 months), if rent was set before 23rd Dec 2016.

"A landlord can only review the rent once in any 24 month period, and cannot review within 24 months of the commencement of the tenancy except in limited circumstances such as a complete refurbishment of the property which affects the market rent of the dwelling. "
https://www.rtb.ie/rent-pressure-zones/rent-certainty-measures

It hasn't been reviewed in 5 years- a new lease was signed- but the rent itself wasn't reviewed. Aka- the landlord has to give 90 days notice- however, they are entitled to review the rent now- as it hasn't been reviewed (at all) thus far........?

I.e. 90 days notice- and the rent review is valid.

As for the new reg- his first review (ever) is under the new reg- and he is on annual reviews thereafter- limited to market rates (as he isn't in an RPZ the 4% rule doesn't apply).

Books4you

The_Conductor wrote: »

It hasn't been reviewed in 5 years- a new lease was signed- but the rent itself wasn't reviewed. Aka- the landlord has to give 90 days notice- however, they are entitled to review the rent now- as it hasn't been reviewed (at all) thus far........?

I.e. 90 days notice- and the rent review is valid.

As for the new reg- his first review (ever) is under the new reg- and he is on annual reviews thereafter- limited to market rates (as he isn't in an RPZ the 4% rule doesn't apply).

So honest answer, should I just pay up and say nothing? It's not the money just don't want to be taken for a fool.

Paulw

The_Conductor wrote: »

It hasn't been reviewed in 5 years- a new lease was signed- but the rent itself wasn't reviewed. Aka- the landlord has to give 90 days notice- however, they are entitled to review the rent now- as it hasn't been reviewed (at all) thus far........?
.

But, if the new lease in Dec stated a rent rate, then would that not be considered a review, even if there was no change?

While the rent may not have increased in 5 years, that doesn't mean it wasn't reviewed.

The_Conductor

Paulw wrote: »

But, if the new lease in Dec stated a rent rate, then would that not be considered a review, even if there was no change?

While the rent may not have increased in 5 years, that doesn't mean it wasn't reviewed.

A new lease- doesn't necessarily count as a 'rent review'.
The OP could argue the point and take their chance at adjudication- however, other cases have fallen on just this point. The rent wasn't modified- in addition to Part IV rights additional rights were granted and the terms of the tenancy clarified- however, there was no review of the rent, which wasn't modified at that time.

Restating the rent- for a further fixed term- does not constitute a review- if there was no change in it (according to Threshold and Citizen's Advice- neither of whom I like to rely on). Essentially- a rent review results in either an increase or a reduction in rent- it has to be served in a particular manner (giving at least the notice specified in the Act) and it has to state the date from which the revised rate of rent applies.

Simply rolling over the fixed term lease- which itself is pretty meaningless- does not constitute a review- as it does not meet the conditions governing a review.

If the OP wants to argue it with the RTB- its their prerogative- they don't have anything to loose- however, the restated rent will apply from the date given in the original notice- and not from the adjudication ruling- aka if it takes 3-6 months to go through the adjudication process- the OP then owes a lumpsum at the end- if/when its found in the landlord's favour.

Its entirely up to the OP whether, or not, they wish to dispute it- however, they're not in an RPZ- and the suggested increase is still significantly below the local rates- locking in this increase now- saves them a review when later in the year when presumably the landlord will give them the option of a further fixed term lease (which the landlord doesn't have to do).

I do get what you're saying- however, similar RTB cases have not normally (without other reasons) gone in the tenant's favour.

wordofwarning

The_Conductor wrote: »

Simply rolling over the fixed term lease- which itself is pretty meaningless- does not constitute a review- as it does not meet the conditions governing a review.

Even OP has the lease renewals are literally a token exercise and are only so they can get a parking permit. I can't imagine I ask for a lease renewals merely to get a parking permit will sit well

Books4you

I have no intention in going through rtb so I think I will just pay up. It's close to work and nice apt and it's a small town so rent is no where near the likes of Dublin ( I still don't know how people live there when I see the price of rent ) Mine is prob a quarter of some I've seen! ☺

And the lease every year is really a token, really only need it for permit although I've a feeling I'm the only one that asks for it. I think the others just tipp ex out the date from last year and photocopy it. That's the gist I get from them anyway although I really don't like the idea of that. I like things done properly.

Thanks for all the replies. If I could just clarify 1 thing though. It says on the letter new 12 month lease from June and new price. Is it definitely that new price for 2 years or could they change it next year too?

Browney7

Books4you wrote: »

I have no intention in going through rtb so I think I will just pay up. It's close to work and nice apt and it's a small town so rent is no where near the likes of Dublin ( I still don't know how people live there when I see the price of rent ) Mine is prob a quarter of some I've seen! ☺

And the lease every year is really a token, really only need it for permit although I've a feeling I'm the only one that asks for it. I think the others just tipp ex out the date from last year and photocopy it. That's the gist I get from them anyway although I really don't like the idea of that. I like things done properly.

Thanks for all the replies. If I could just clarify 1 thing though. It says on the letter new 12 month lease from June and new price. Is it definitely that new price for 2 years or could they change it next year too?

Does it cite three comparable properties in the area - could stall the increase another while?

Books4you

Browney7 wrote: »

Does it cite three comparable properties in the area - could stall the increase another while?

No nothing like that on it at all.

Graham

OP, what does your current lease say about rent reviews and rent amounts?

RTA aside, I'm wondering if you have a 1 year lease at a specified rent with no provision for rent increases.

Added:

it would be unusual for a residential lease to have any provision for rent increases during the term of the lease.

Books4you

Graham wrote: »

OP, what does your current lease say about rent reviews and rent amounts?

RTA aside, I'm wondering if you have a 1 year lease at a specified rent with no provision for rent increases.

Added:

it would be unusual for a residential lease to have any provision for rent increases during the term of the lease.

Honestly I've gone over it there and I can't see anything in there about a rent review anywhere.

Graham

Books4you wrote: »

Honestly I've gone over it there and I can't see anything in there about a rent review anywhere.

That doesn't surprise me at all.

If your lease is for 12 months and your lease specifies the current rent I'm struggling to see how they can attempt to raise the rent until after the end of the lease.

Trying to find the specifics on the RTB site is a pain but it is mentioned briefly in a section on breaking fixed term leases:

Rent review
It is also important to note the level of rent can be renegotiated at the expiry of the lease by both landlord and tenant. Otherwise, the rent charged must be as set out in the agreement.

https://www.rtb.ie/search-results/news/article/2014/02/11/breaking-a-fixed-term-lease

Books4you

Graham wrote: »

That doesn't surprise me at all.

If your lease is for 12 months and your lease specifies the current rent I'm struggling to see how they can attempt to raise the rent until after the end of the lease.

Trying to find the specifics on the RTB site is a pain but it is mentioned briefly in a section on breaking fixed term leases:



https://www.rtb.ie/search-results/news/article/2014/02/11/breaking-a-fixed-term-lease

Thanks very much for your help. I'm in 2 minds about what to do. Don't want hassle but I'm starting to think I should bring it up and see what they come back and say. Probably worth a shot anyway.

Added:
My lease says 12 months and says amount I pay.

mrslancaster

Graham wrote: »

That doesn't surprise me at all.

If your lease is for 12 months and your lease specifies the current rent I'm struggling to see how they can attempt to raise the rent until after the end of the lease.

Trying to find the specifics on the RTB site is a pain but it is mentioned briefly in a section on breaking fixed term leases:



https://www.rtb.ie/search-results/news/article/2014/02/11/breaking-a-fixed-term-lease

apologies everyone for asking this again but I really don't understand the rules about rent increases.

reading on this thread it seems that a rent review means an actual change in the amount paid, either more or less.

it is also clear that a valid 90 day notice of a rent review must be provided ie. a notice that the rent amount will change

say a 12 months lease 01jan17 to 31 dec 17 has fixed rent for the period and cannot change. i read somewhere on another thread that a LL cannot issue a valid 90 day rent increase notice until after the expiry of the lease on 01 Jan 18.

surely if the notice is issued before 01 Oct 17 with the new amount to take effect on 01jan2018 then the rules are met by the LL?

I understand the rent cannot be increased in any 12 months or 24 months depending on the last review (change in amount) but I cannot see how LL has to wait until the year/2years is completed before issuing a valid notice of the new rent.

what am I missing??

Tigger

you have a fixed term lease and the rent cannot be increased till its finished. the question is can it be increased immediatly as it finishes or can 90 days notice of the rent increase be given, i'd infer that 90 days before the end of the lease you should be given notice of the rent increasing

mrslancaster

Tigger wrote: »

you have a fixed term lease and the rent cannot be increased till its finished. the question is can it be increased immediatly as it finishes or can 90 days notice of the rent increase be given, i'd infer that 90 days before the end of the lease you should be given notice of the rent increasing

thanks Tigger, that's my reading of it - threshold website differs & citizens information could not clarify

appreciate the many knowledgeable posters on boards & very helpful info

CeilingFly

Browney7 wrote: »

Does it cite three comparable properties in the area - could stall the increase another while?

Op says rent is well below others in the area, so probably best not to flag this as rent could jump a lot more.

The op could argue that it should wait till Dec, but at whar cost? Increase to comparable rents in area which could mean €200-€300 increase.

I'd be inclined to accept and it will mean no further increase for two years.

The_Conductor

Tigger wrote: »

you have a fixed term lease and the rent cannot be increased till its finished. the question is can it be increased immediatly as it finishes or can 90 days notice of the rent increase be given, i'd infer that 90 days before the end of the lease you should be given notice of the rent increasing

Personally- I think the rent is as stated in the fixed term lease- for the term of the fixed term lease- however, as there hasn't been a rent-review- the landlord can simply give 90 days notice of a change in the rent- with an implementation date of any date after the elapse of the fixed term lease- i.e. the rent review is being dealt with separately to the fixed term lease- as it is decoupled from it.

One way or the other- the OP is safe until the end of the fixed term lease- at question is whether the landlord has to wait a further 90 days- or whether they can set the clock ticking immediately, with a change in rent to occur on the day after the fixed term lease ends.

Either way- its simply timing- its going to happen, come what may- its just what is the applicable date on which the change is implemented.

4ensic15

The_Conductor wrote: »

One way or the other- the OP is safe until the end of the fixed term lease- at question is whether the landlord has to wait a further 90 days- or whether they can set the clock ticking immediately, with a change in rent to occur on the day after the fixed term lease ends.

Either way- its simply timing- its going to happen, come what may- its just what is the applicable date on which the change is implemented.

If there is an invalid notice, it is still counted as a review and resets the clock again. Increases are not ineviatble.

gizmo81

Hi Mrs. Lancaster, I hope this helps regarding when to issue a notice. It seems to be the expiry of 24 and not within, I've taken some examples from RTB.

This is taken from the RTB website Rent Certainty Measures page Serving a Rent Review Notice outside of a Rent Pressure Zone

I believe the wording indicates that a notice of Rent Review cannot issue until the expiry of 24 months


Example 1:
A landlord reviews the rent of a dwelling on 1 January 2016 by serving a 90 day notice of rent review indicating that the change will take effect from the 1st April 2016. A subsequent Notice of Rent Review can not issue until 1 January 2018 and must also provide 90 days Notice prior to the change taking effect.
Example 2:
A landlord has reviewed the rent of a dwelling on 3 December 2015 (prior to the commencement of the new legislative changes), and served a 28 day notice that the rent was to increase on 1 January 2016. The next rent review notice can not issue until 3 December 2017 and would additionally have to provide 90 days notice prior to the change taking effect, which would be 4 March 2018.


Example 6:
Larry and Mary, a couple living in Dublin, with their 3 children, rent their 3 bed house for €1,300 per month. Their last rent review was in September 2013. Upon enactment, Larry and Mary's landlord can initiate a rent review at any time, as it is more than two years since their last rent review.

https://www.rtb.ie/rent-pressure-zones/rent-certainty-measures

Landlords outside RPZ can only review the rent on the expiry of 24 months except in limited circumstances.

Serving a Rent Review Notice outside of a Rent Pressure Zone
A landlord can only review the rent once in any 24 month period, and cannot review within 24 months of the commencement of the tenancy except in limited circumstances such as a complete refurbishment of the property which affects the market rent of the dwelling.

https://www.rtb.ie/rent-pressure-zones/rent-certainty-measures

The_Conductor

The above does not apply to the OP- who has not had a rent review, as per the RTB description, since the commencement of the tenancy- over 5 and a half years ago.

The tenant is safe until the elapse of their fixed term lease- the only thing in question among other posters- is when is the appropriate time to serve the notice of rent review- within the period of the fixed term lease, but at least 90 days before its elapse- to take effect on day 1 after the elapse of the fixed term lease- or on the elapse of the fixed term lease to take effect 90 days hence.

In addition- the OP *is not* in a rent pressure zone- and is not confined to the 4% per annum increase (they haven't advised what the suggested percentage increase is- however, all it has to be, is in keeping with local market rates).

If Mrs. Lancaster would like to discuss a different scenario to the OP's- it really has to be in a new thread- as there are completely different scenarios being discussed here- and the OP is at risk of reading wholly unrelated information on their thread which could send them off in a wholly incorrect direction, and potentially cause them issues with their landlord (and/or the RTB).

Kindly confine discussions to the OP's query- if you want to discuss other queries- start a new thread.