Issues with my tenants

Hello.
This is my first posting for here but I have read a number of posts in the past which have been great.

I have a long standing tenant in my house who was buying the house up until recently. Due to errors on my side after 9 months the tenant has decided to pull his sale and go elsewhere. It is a bit of a nightmare if I am honest as it should have been an easy sale.

My problem is no that since the sale has been cancelled the tenant, who up till this point was a model one, has stopped paying rent. They have said they will move out as soon as, but not in a rush.
I have had the 14 days notice and then 28 days notice issued correctly (checked with solicitor) But I am wondering what happens next?

If the tenant decides to just not move out, what can I do. They mentioned going to the RTB or maybe I should?
Does it matter who gets to the RTB first?

I dont know what the outcome is, but from reading posts here tenants seem to be paid to move out.
If they do overhold on the house, what can I do from there.

Thank you.

Graham

Next stop RTB.

Don't wait.

If they do overhold (sounds like they already are) then your choices are; go to the RTB.

Bushmanpm

Graham wrote:

Next stop RTB.

Graham wrote:

Don't wait.

Graham wrote:

If they do overhold (sounds like they already are) then your choices are; go to the RTB.

Exactly. Don't wait for the tenant, they've already showed their hand. You've done the 14/28 day notices and still no rent/joy I presume?
Log it with the RTB TODAY so you can at least get the ball rilling and show the tenant you're serious.
BTW, if there was a deposit originally, do you still have it? That can be used as an final leverage but don't tell them that, go the RTB route first.

Pelvis

Not sure the tenant cares about leverage if they've just stopped paying rent, you don't do that and expect to get your deposit back.

Sounds like the tenant might feel like he's been taken for a ride these past 9 months, handing over rent for a house he's supposed to be purchasing. Looks like he's trying to get that money back.

Thank you for your replys.

Yes, I feel that they will stay no matter what at this stage until they have completed the purchase of the house elsewhere. It was nearly 11 months truth be told of him trying to buy the house, It was stalled on my side but my estate agent failed to communicate and I feel this led to a bad taste.

In regards to the RTB, I have spoken to them, I can only open a case with them once the notice period has passed, or so I am told.
I do have a deposit for the rent and to be fair the last time I saw the house it was very clean, he has been a very good tenant, bought his own new washing machine, fixed fences after storms, repaired most things without asking me. It is a shame it has come to this as I wanted him to be the new owner of the house as the neighbors are always telling me how great it is to have them around.

Again, just a sad state of affairs to be left with now. Does anyone know if I legally chase for the owed rent does it actually work?

wordofwarning

Why did the sale fall through?

I wonder is he attempting to do this to leverage a sale. You can't sell it until he is out of the place

pilly

You say in your first post that "they" mentioned going to the RTB. Who do you mean by "they"? If you mean the tenants do they have a valid complaint to make? Are there other issues outstanding?

Maybe they feel that they've spent a lot of money on the house?

Hi,
Sale fell through as he pulled out. We had a few issues with release from the bank (money owed- never buy in 2007!)
I am not sure about leveraging a sale as from what we are told he has bought elsewhere and is just awaiting a move date.

Juwwi

I've no advise for you unfortunately but l'd say he's planning on staying without paying rent until he's keys to his new house .

Maybe prices of houses have risen in the 9 months and he's a bit bitter about that .

Still no excuse for stopping paying rent .

Good luck

pilly

pilly wrote: »

You say in your first post that "they" mentioned going to the RTB. Who do you mean by "they"? If you mean the tenants do they have a valid complaint to make? Are there other issues outstanding?

Maybe they feel that they've spent a lot of money on the house?

Hi
It was based on the last conversation had between the EA and tenant and his girlfriend. My EA has said this is usually a delay tactic as it can take 1-2 months to get to the RTB

robbie1977

robbie1977 wrote: »

I've no advise for you unfortunately but l'd say he's planning on staying without paying rent until he's keys to his new house .

Maybe prices of houses have risen in the 9 months and he's a bit bitter about that .

Still no excuse for stopping paying rent .

Good luck

Hi
Yes i think that also. House prices have risen in the time, i know he also lost out on another sale as he went sale agreed with me

Marcusm

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

Hi
Yes i think that also. House prices have risen in the time, i know he also lost out on another sale as he went sale agreed with me

Reading between the lines, you were unable to get your mortgage provider to agree the sale as there was a shortfall in the sales proceeds versus the mortgage balance? You acknowledge a lack of communication on your part has led to frustration in your relationship with the tenant. Hopefully, you will be able to get them to move on quickly, I suspect that their purchase is more expensive due to the "lack of communication".

You should proceed down the RTB route but try and maintain good relations with the tenant so that they leave the property in the good order even if they have not settled the rent by that time.

The_Conductor

Marcusm wrote: »

Reading between the lines, you were unable to get your mortgage provider to agree the sale as there was a shortfall in the sales proceeds versus the mortgage balance? You acknowledge a lack of communication on your part has led to frustration in your relationship with the tenant. Hopefully, you will be able to get them to move on quickly, I suspect that their purchase is more expensive due to the "lack of communication".

You should proceed down the RTB route but try and maintain good relations with the tenant so that they leave the property in the good order even if they have not settled the rent by that time.

If the tenant had bought a property elsewhere- the landlord is in quite strong a position- as if their lender were to hear that someone else was trying to register a lien on their new property in satisfaction of unpaid rent/damage etc etc- there would be hell to pay. I'm not saying that you should ever mention this to the tenant- however, the knowledge that they have bought elsewhere- does give you a new hand of cards to play with- while the tenant imagines they hold all the trumps- they're playing with a stale hand of cards............

Lodge the RTB case asap- they have lots to loose (unfotunately you do too- however, its a more even hand of cards than the tenant seems to think it is.......)

The_Conductor

The_Conductor wrote: »

If the tenant had bought a property elsewhere- the landlord is in quite strong a position- as if their lender were to hear that someone else was trying to register a lien on their new property in satisfaction of unpaid rent/damage etc etc- there would be hell to pay. I'm not saying that you should ever mention this to the tenant- however, the knowledge that they have bought elsewhere- does give you a new hand of cards to play with- while the tenant imagines they hold all the trumps- they're playing with a stale hand of cards............

Lodge the RTB case asap- they have lots to loose (unfotunately you do too- however, its a more even hand of cards than the tenant seems to think it is.......)

I am not sure how this would help. I would need to know where they have bought and also who the lender is would i not.
Plus as the matter would go to the RTB are they allowed access to this info

Marcusm

Marcusm wrote: »

Reading between the lines, you were unable to get your mortgage provider to agree the sale as there was a shortfall in the sales proceeds versus the mortgage balance? You acknowledge a lack of communication on your part has led to frustration in your relationship with the tenant. Hopefully, you will be able to get them to move on quickly, I suspect that their purchase is more expensive due to the "lack of communication".

You should proceed down the RTB route but try and maintain good relations with the tenant so that they leave the property in the good order even if they have not settled the rent by that time.

Yes, basically this house was used as colllateral for another purchase. Issues with the bank took a lot longer to sort. In this time the EA basically ignored the tenant/purchaser.

I think house will be given back clean,it has always been that way.

4ensic15

The_Conductor wrote: »

If the tenant had bought a property elsewhere- the landlord is in quite strong a position- as if their lender were to hear that someone else was trying to register a lien on their new property in satisfaction of unpaid rent/damage etc etc- is.......)

The bank always takes first charge on aq property and aany other charge against the property wiill rank after the bank. However, if there is an unsatisfied judgement, the bank may not lend at all.

4ensic15

4ensic15 wrote: »

The bank always takes first charge on aq property and aany other charge against the property wiill rank after the bank. However, if there is an unsatisfied judgement, the bank may not lend at all.

Yes, but again i would need a court judgement against him.. i think that would be a long way off, if it even happpened.

Hi,

I asked my solicitor about the above comments. He has said that generally to get a judgement is a long court procedure, and only if they are delinquent in repayment or anything like that could it be used against the new house purchase.
Saying that, he has said I could also be somewhat accountable for this as "in part you or your agent seems to have delayed actions, either intentionally or accidentally which should have been disclosed prior to negotiation"

Not sure if it is worth it to be honest if that is the case. Also, it was said that the EA might also be caught with a conflict of interest as both the the LL EA and the selling EA, something about not having his client (tenants) interest at hand.

pilly

Yeah, this is getting messier by the minute. Tbh I think the tenants are royally pissed off with you and it sounds like they've every right to be. The best you can hope for now is that they will go sooner rather than later.

pilly

pilly wrote: »

Yeah, this is getting messier by the minute. Tbh I think the tenants are royally pissed off with you and it sounds like they've every right to be. The best you can hope for now is that they will go sooner rather than later.

I think this also. I am just very unsure of what the proper procedure is. I think it was handled very badly in general and to be fair they have been exceptional tenants for years with no issues in general, but as I said before it is a shame it has come down to this.

I just dont also wish to be taken for a ride either as I still have to pay the mortgage in this case and while it wont break the bank I would prefer not to have to pay 2-3K in fees on a house I do not live in.

pilly

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

I think this also. I am just very unsure of what the proper procedure is. I think it was handled very badly in general and to be fair they have been exceptional tenants for years with no issues in general, but as I said before it is a shame it has come down to this.

I just dont also wish to be taken for a ride either as I still have to pay the mortgage in this case and while it wont break the bank I would prefer not to have to pay 2-3K in fees on a house I do not live in.

Just follow the RTB procedures, that's all you can do. Look at heart you seem to me to be a decent person and I think you have a conscience about this.

They will eventually have to go but you'll have to ready yourself for the long haul.

professore

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

I think this also. I am just very unsure of what the proper procedure is. I think it was handled very badly in general and to be fair they have been exceptional tenants for years with no issues in general, but as I said before it is a shame it has come down to this.

I just dont also wish to be taken for a ride either as I still have to pay the mortgage in this case and while it wont break the bank I would prefer not to have to pay 2-3K in fees on a house I do not live in.

As your tenant would have preferred not to have to pay thousands in rent, engineers reports, solicitors fees, etc etc, and more thousands because of house price increases, when they eventually buy a new house that they lost out on due to communication issues.

if I was you I would offer to waive a certain generous amount of rent as a gesture of goodwill if in return they will play ball on leaving. Go and talk to them. Worth a shot anyway - the worst they can do is go scorched earth, and they are already doing that. If he starts getting PTB and solicitors letters they are likely to go scorched earth. I would for sure.

If they have been a model tenant until now they are likely to respond to some sort of reasonable offer - but expect to get a bollocking first if communication has been poor until now.

Browney7

Realistically the tenant will be gone soon - he/she is probably just using the deposit as last month's rent and hasn't given formal notice to quit as they aren't sure when house will be ready to move into and so don't want to be tied into two/three months notice. Are you going to rent the place again or sell it? Tenant knows if he gives you notice and you plan on selling you'll hold him to it as you won't be re renting it so will not try to get new tenants albeit it being a landlords market. Reading between the lines he just plans on leaving and you'll end up with his deposit. If he does just leave air bnb it to get some income.

Also, have you issued a termination notice as you intend to sell? He only knows you are selling it as he was potentially buying it.

Thanks for both responses above.
Yes I do feel very poorly about this, It had always been my intention to sell the house to the tenant and indeed 3 neighbors I had when I lived in the house myself and speak to regularly have said they would have loved this chap to stay, he minds the place ( 6'3 and a MMA trainer) so they have had no anti social issue.

And yes, I agree that it must not be easy for him ( and partner) to have had to wait for months for the house and then go hunting again with all the extra finance that involves.

Browney7

Browney7 wrote: »

Realistically the tenant will be gone soon - he/she is probably just using the deposit as last month's rent and hasn't given formal notice to quit as they aren't sure when house will be ready to move into and so don't want to be tied into two/three months notice. Are you going to rent the place again or sell it? Tenant knows if he gives you notice and you plan on selling you'll hold him to it as you won't be re renting it so will not try to get new tenants albeit it being a landlords market. Reading between the lines he just plans on leaving and you'll end up with his deposit. If he does just leave air bnb it to get some income.

Also, have you issued a termination notice as you intend to sell? He only knows you are selling it as he was potentially buying it.

Hi,

No the notice was given for non payment of rent, but previously we have given notice for intention to sell and also we have been very advanced in the sales process with him. To the point his solicitor is the one who told him to pull the plug after 5 months of contracts requests from his side.

Browney7

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

Hi,

No the notice was given for non payment of rent, but previously we have given notice for intention to sell and also we have been very advanced in the sales process with him. To the point his solicitor is the one who told him to pull the plug after 5 months of contracts requests from his side.

But if he pays the rent you can't evict as he's made right the arrears - are you awaiting notice from him to quit? Others will know better on here but shouldn't you be giving a formal declaration intending to sell the property and the tenancy will terminate on or before x date? Are you in a hurry to sell? Could existing tenant in theory just keep paying rent whilst simultaneously subletting to someone else delaying your sale? You must be in no hurry to sell I take it?

Sixtoes

By the sounds of it he's lost a lot more €€ than you. I think you should give them 3 months grace on the rent as a good will gesture.

Browney7

Browney7 wrote: »

But if he pays the rent you can't evict as he's made right the arrears - are you awaiting notice from him to quit? Others will know better on here but shouldn't you be giving a formal declaration intending to sell the property and the tenancy will terminate on or before x date? Are you in a hurry to sell? Could existing tenant in theory just keep paying rent whilst simultaneously subletting to someone else delaying your sale? You must be in no hurry to sell I take it?

Hi,
No he has stopped paying rent a few months ago, currently on month three.
The notice was given as a 14 days notice then a 28 day notice of eviction.

I would have loved him to continue on and keep paying rent but once the sale fell through he stopped paying the rent

Graham

Browney7 wrote: »

But if he pays the rent you can't evict

Tenant isn't paying the rent.

Browney7

Sixtoes wrote: »

By the sounds of it he's lost a lot more €€ than you. I think you should give them 3 months grace on the rent as a good will gesture.

I wouldn't be offering a grace period straight up. Just level with them and ask when does he think his sale will go through and discuss leaving etc. See what they say. They could have gotten indignant at receiving rent arrears notices which have to be issued

Browney7

Browney7 wrote: »

I wouldn't be offering a grace period straight up. Just level with them and ask when does he think his sale will go through and discuss leaving etc. See what they say. They could have gotten indignant at receiving rent arrears notices which have to be issued

Yeah in generał the realationship has deteriorated since then. Doesnt help that the EA ignored calls and emails about two big repair jobs either

pilly

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

Yeah in generał the realationship has deteriorated since then. Doesnt help that the EA ignored calls and emails about two big repair jobs either

Ah you see, this is where you're screwed too. They can always claim that they had to pay for the repair jobs themselves.

Tbh, I'd say you'll be doing well to get out of this with anything but your dignity intact.

Yourself and the EA have made a complete mess of things.

Turtle_

Sorry if I'm behind the curve here, have you considered going to talk to your tenants and apologising for the way things happened?

Turtle_

Turtle_ wrote: »

Sorry if I'm behind the curve here, have you considered going to talk to your tenants and apologising for the way things happened?

I have. No answer from them at all.

A question,does he have to notify me that he plans to stay after 28 notice period. Can i just turn up to the house and walk in ?

pilly

Skyrimaddict wrote:

A question,does he have to notify me that he plans to stay after 28 notice period. Can i just turn up to the house and walk in ?

No you can't.

pilly

pilly wrote: »

No you can't.

Hi,
So even if i have told him i plan to move back prior to sale and he has not responded i cannot just move back in.
I know he is still in the house, only met the next door neighbour today and he said everyything seems normal, the guy and his partner talking about a move in a few weeks.

Other than RTB, which even seems a long shot are my hands tied?
Is there much success with getting money back from overheld tenants

Marcusm

The_Conductor wrote: »

If the tenant had bought a property elsewhere- the landlord is in quite strong a position- as if their lender were to hear that someone else was trying to register a lien on their new property in satisfaction of unpaid rent/damage etc etc- there would be hell to pay. I'm not saying that you should ever mention this to the tenant- however, the knowledge that they have bought elsewhere- does give you a new hand of cards to play with- while the tenant imagines they hold all the trumps- they're playing with a stale hand of cards............

Lodge the RTB case asap- they have lots to loose (unfotunately you do too- however, its a more even hand of cards than the tenant seems to think it is.......)

The first charge security holder (ie the mortgage bank) will not give a damn about a charge registered in this manner provided the mortgage continues to be serviced for the simple reason that it doesn't affect its security and would not be an event of default permitting it to accelerate enforcement of its charge.

It's a pity that there is no effective remedy available to OP which is why I've suggested ensuring that he recovers possession of a clean property.

Marcusm

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

Hi,
So even if i have told him i plan to move back prior to sale and he has not responded i cannot just move back in.
I know he is still in the house, only met the next door neighbour today and he said everyything seems normal, the guy and his partner talking about a move in a few weeks.

Other than RTB, which even seems a long shot are my hands tied?
Is there much success with getting money back from overheld tenants

Even the RTB cannot physically calmly move them out. That's why I suggested trying to focus on getting clean possession vis a vis the tenant.

Marcusm

Marcusm wrote: »

Even the RTB cannot physically calmly move them out. That's why I suggested trying to focus on getting clean possession vis a vis the tenant.

So really at this stage if I read correctly, the best outcome I can look forward to is that he gives the house back clean and moves out soon?

I suppose, at least the market has shifted up a bit more so my own house is now worth about 10K more than this time last year. Glass half full and all that.

The_Conductor

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

So really at this stage if I read correctly, the best outcome I can look forward to is that he gives the house back clean and moves out soon?

I suppose, at least the market has shifted up a bit more so my own house is now worth about 10K more than this time last year. Glass half full and all that.

While you're at it- go and find yourself a new estate agent- the one you're using at the moment has only one person's interests at heart- and its not the tenant's or your's........

SteM

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

Hi,
So even if i have told him i plan to move back prior to sale and he has not responded i cannot just move back in.
I know he is still in the house, only met the next door neighbour today and he said everyything seems normal, the guy and his partner talking about a move in a few weeks.

If sounds like you're getting off lightly here to be honest. At least you know that the end is near and they will be moving out soon. I hope you didn't tell the neighbours that he's not paying his rent? It's not going to help if the tenants are annoyed with you already.

The_Conductor

The_Conductor wrote: »

While you're at it- go and find yourself a new estate agent- the one you're using at the moment has only one person's interests at heart- and its not the tenant's or your's........

Thanks, Yes the EA and i have parted ways on the rental. And also the sale !

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

The_Conductor

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I know that- you know that- and I'm sure the OP does too- however, he wants his property back undamaged and in as good a state as possible.

The tenant should not be let off the hook- and the fact that the sale fell through is not some magic 'I don't have to pay rent' card for the tenant- they owe this money- and should be issued with the requesite notices of arrears and chased for it. I'd argue that it may be easier to chase them- once they are out of the property- as the OP has less to loose (i.e. they're not going to damage the property in spite).

The_Conductor

The_Conductor wrote: »

I know that- you know that- and I'm sure the OP does too- however, he wants his property back undamaged and in as good a state as possible.

The tenant should not be let off the hook- and the fact that the sale fell through is not some magic 'I don't have to pay rent' card for the tenant- they owe this money- and should be issued with the requesite notices of arrears and chased for it. I'd argue that it may be easier to chase them- once they are out of the property- as the OP has less to loose (i.e. they're not going to damage the property in spite).

Yes at this stage getting the house back is a priority. I wasnt going to offer free rent as they getting this already.
In regards to chasing up afterwards, what are the succes rates for this.

mugsymugsy

I just don't get how people thinks it ok to basically rob someone each month. Legislation needs to come in that after three months of non payment/ going through proper procedure that they can be turfed out.

Ridiculous that the landlord is getting screwed over.

OP I hope it all works out for you

The_Conductor

mugsymugsy wrote: »

I just don't get how people thinks it ok to basically rob someone each month. Legislation needs to come in that after three months of non payment/ going through proper procedure that they can be turfed out.

Ridiculous that the landlord is getting screwed over.

OP I hope it all works out for you

The regulatory regime is structured to protect the tenant at all costs- and to assume the landlord is in the wrong. It doesn't matter than the world and its dog can see that the landlord is getting a raw deal- the RTB is a tenant's agency- with a bark for tenants, but a bite for landlords. The tenant has nothing to loose- the landlord does.

mugsymugsy

mugsymugsy wrote: »

I just don't get how people thinks it ok to basically rob someone each month. Legislation needs to come in that after three months of non payment/ going through proper procedure that they can be turfed out.

Ridiculous that the landlord is getting screwed over.

OP I hope it all works out for you

I Suppose the answer i would get back is that had i not entered the sale, or had all my documents in order prior to deciding to sell the deal would have been done. There was an oppetunity cost for the tenant as he lost this house sale and another that he pulled out of to buy my house.
That was the answer i got anyway

The_Conductor

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

I Suppose the answer i would get back is that had i not entered the sale, or had all my documents in order prior to deciding to sell the deal would have been done. There was an oppetunity cost for the tenant as he lost this house sale and another that he pulled out of to buy my house.
That was the answer i got anyway

You are not responsible for an opportunity cost the tenant incurred- my nextdoor neighbour isn't responsible for an opportunity cost I incurred by living next door to them.

You are letting them a property- well you were- until they decided paying rent was optional- but there is nothing to say they wouldn't have stopped paying rent for a few months- had they decided at the outset to buy somewhere else.

The villian in all of this- would appear to be estate agent- and yet, he/she is getting off scott free..........

The_Conductor

The_Conductor wrote: »

You are not responsible for an opportunity cost the tenant incurred- my nextdoor neighbour isn't responsible for an opportunity cost I incurred by living next door to them.

You are letting them a property- well you were- until they decided paying rent was optional- but there is nothing to say they wouldn't have stopped paying rent for a few months- had they decided at the outset to buy somewhere else.

The villian in all of this- would appear to be estate agent- and yet, he/she is getting off scott free..........

Once the issue is sorted i will be reporting him, i saw emails on his computer while i was at the office which had been unanswered, yet when the sale was cancelled he got back in touch then

And no, while your not responsible to your neighbour there is a direct link between me selling, or failing to do and them pulling out of other sales. It is on email, which i feel poorly about

Hi,
Follow up to my posting earlier, I took the very good advice of people here and I went to speak with the tenant in the house.

Very long story short, in his words, due to us not proceeding with sale the new house he is buying went up in asking by 10.5K in the six months of non action in this sale. He also pulled out of an identical house as my one next door, which subsequently sold for 25K less than he would have paid me.

On top of this, he had another 2K in fees levied with him.

While I said I appreciate all this, rent not being paid is still a separate issue. He advised that he is due to get keys in the middle of next week for his new house, he allowed me to have a quick look inside my own house and it it is indeed packed and ready to go. Looks very clean as I had suspected. He said he will hopefully be gone by Mid June at latest and I can do a final inspection at this stage, but if I wish for rent I will have to persue him. Also showed me the fences that he fixed and new washing machine AND Dishwasher he bought.

While I am still a little sore over the rent, does anyone think it is something to follow up on, or could the fact he has all the above figures outlined go against me?

Thank you.