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Radio Caroline awarded MW license

  • 21-05-2017 1:57pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 621 ✭✭✭


    OFCOM has awarded Radio Caroline a MW license .
    Although the area will be Suffolk in the East of England it's a start !!
    I am way outside that area but will be interesting for a bit of MW DX .
    Onwards and upwards .
    Congratulations Radio Caroline,Peter Moore and all involved .
    Ronan's wish comes true .
    Regards


«1

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 613 ✭✭✭The Parish Priest.


    So despite all the nonsense talk that goes on in the uk about setting dates to switch off analogue radio, ofcom are still handing out medium wave licenses


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 621 ✭✭✭Oscarziggy


    They are indeed --- 5 in total this round .
    Regards


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,875 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Oscarziggy wrote: »
    OFCOM has awarded Radio Caroline a MW license .
    Although the area will be Suffolk in the East of England it's a start !!
    I am way outside that area but will be interesting for a bit of MW DX .
    Onwards and upwards .
    Congratulations Radio Caroline,Peter Moore and all involved .
    Ronan's wish comes true .
    Regards

    Are you over 45 ?

    https://www.ofcom.org.uk/about-ofcom/latest/media/media-releases/2017/ofcom-awards-five-new-am-community-radio-licences?subject=broadcasting

    Radio Caroline will broadcast a wide range of album music from the 1960s to the present day. It is for people aged 45+ in Suffolk and northern parts of Essex.

    If you want a DX challenge try Desi Radio on 1602 kHz. It is listed as 70 watts but I think it must be using higher power. I can get a good signal in the late evenings.

    http://desiradio.org.uk/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭SimonMaher


    Happy for Radio Caroline and the people who still work to keep the old girl going. It's a victory for impressive persistence and fair play to them for that. I wish them every good fortune.

    Interesting too that OFCOM (the UK equivalent of the BAI) continue to hand out Radio Licences (both analogue and digital). A very different philosophy to that which prevails here which is that not licencing services will protect what we have. The view taken in the UK (which nowadays has significantly higher levels of listenership to Linear Radio than us incidentally) is that the only way to protect "what we have" is to make linear radio an irresistible choice in terms of the range and breadth of services available across whatever platform.

    Just by means of illustration:

    Listenership All Adults UK: 89%
    Listenership All Adults Ireland: 82%

    Listenership All Adults London: 87%
    Listenership All Adults Dublin: 75%

    Best of luck Caroline 648!

    Simon


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,360 ✭✭✭Declan A Walsh


    It's been a long and fascinating story.

    It was one of the original music pirates (indeed the name itself because it broadcast illegally from a ship!) way back in the 1960s. It had various stops and starts as a pirate over the next couple of decades (including change of ship!). Then, in the latter half of the '90s, it had its first RSL (Restricted Service License) - a bit like our temporary licenses. After a few of those, it appeared at different stages as a satellite station and a digital station (and of course on the internet!). Now, in its latest guise, it has what amounts to a community radio license and has gone back to its roots by broadcasting on MW.

    Looks like it's here to stay this time!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,875 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    SimonMaher wrote: »

    Interesting too that OFCOM (the UK equivalent of the BAI) continue to hand out Radio Licences (both analogue and digital). A very different philosophy to that which prevails here which is that not licencing services will protect what we have.

    The BAI have "handed out" plenty of licences, there is hardly a shortage of radio stations in the country.

    http://www.bai.ie/en/broadcasters/

    Some more up for grabs if you know anyone interested.

    http://www.bai.ie/en/broadcasting/licensing-2/licensing-plans/

    Good luck to Caroline over the next five years (if they last that long) with their 50 watts serving the over 45's in Suffolk.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,168 ✭✭✭Ursus Horribilis


    How many people even listen to MW these days?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,535 ✭✭✭✭Dan Jaman


    If you want a DX challenge try Desi Radio on 1602 kHz. It is listed as 70 watts but I think it must be using higher power. I can get a good signal in the late evenings.

    http://desiradio.org.uk/

    I have 1602 as The Mighty KBC - co-channel with something else right now. It's a terribly wavery signal, but not Desi.
    I got a snatch of Asian music when the major signal faded, which was likely Desi.
    The predominant signal I'm getting is a long rock track, but not co-incident with the stream from the KBC site.
    Who knows. It's a mess.
    Вашему собственному бычьему дерьму нельзя верить - V Putin
    




  • Closed Accounts Posts: 613 ✭✭✭The Parish Priest.


    How many people even listen to MW these days?

    Several Million in Britain


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,875 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Dan Jaman wrote: »
    I have 1602 as The Mighty KBC - co-channel with something else right now. It's a terribly wavery signal, but not Desi.

    I can't hear it during darkness hours, any time I tried, but a bit earlier is good this time of year. I am hearing Seagull (KBC) now when I null out the Spanish station. Both are fairly strong.

    http://www.mwlist.org/mwlist_quick_and_easy.php?area=1&kHz=1602


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,535 ✭✭✭✭Dan Jaman


    I can't hear it during darkness hours, any time I tried, but a bit earlier is good this time of year. I am hearing Seagull (KBC) now when I null out the Spanish station. Both are fairly strong.

    http://www.mwlist.org/mwlist_quick_and_easy.php?area=1&kHz=1602

    I must build a rotatable loop.
    Atm, I'm running a broadcast rx from a large horizontal loop which is great for general purpose low noise pickup, but the rx (PCR1000) is about as selective as a randy tomcat.
    Вашему собственному бычьему дерьму нельзя верить - V Putin
    




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭Technocentral


    How many people even listen to MW these days?

    Awful sounding thing, who wants to listen to a mono low quality signal, I even hated it as a kid in the 80s?:confused:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 910 ✭✭✭BlinkingLights


    It's a pretty abysmally dated platform with terrible audio quality.

    I know it appeals to nostalgia, but not many of us would be willing to listen to crackly radio.

    It's also totally useless in cars as the engine is usually picked up, especially in petrol cars.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 621 ✭✭✭Oscarziggy


    Don't know what happened to my post last night ---
    Radio Caroline have asked for 1kw in their application to OFCOM.
    There are still a lot of MW listeners .
    I also get a mixture of stations on 1602 khz .

    It was interesting to note when Radio 5 did an interview with Pete Moore yesterday morning the presenter said " Radio Caroline has been awarded it's FIRST MW license".
    Who knows what the future holds -- there's a nice big 20kw MW transmitter that may be surplus to requirements in a few year's time on the Isle of Man !

    Onwards and upwards Radio Caroline.
    Yes I am over 45yrs by the way (sadly)!
    Regards


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭SimonMaher


    The BAI have "handed out" plenty of licences, there is hardly a shortage of radio stations in the country.

    http://www.bai.ie/en/broadcasters/

    Some more up for grabs if you know anyone interested.

    http://www.bai.ie/en/broadcasting/licensing-2/licensing-plans/

    Good luck to Caroline over the next five years (if they last that long) with their 50 watts serving the over 45's in Suffolk.

    Thanks for the links! I suppose it depends on your definition of "plenty". I've taken a very quick look at the amount of NEW licences issued by the BAI compared with the licencing activity of OFCOM since 2010. Including Section 71 Radio services I reckon it's about 6 for the BAI and I gave up counting in the second hundred for OFCOM.

    As I've said above, it's a cultural decision which has been taken or indeed two different cultural decisions which have been taken either side of the Irish sea. While the Irish position was understandable, if hopelessly naieve, in the past, the problem is that now that listenership here has started to drop it is very difficult to halt that decline. The ongoing Dublin declines are startling, if unsurprising and their effect directly on Radio's share of revenue will eat away at the past benefits of the protectionist culture very rapidly.

    Anyway, that's a million miles off topic again. Bravo Caroline :)

    Simon


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,728 ✭✭✭Former Former


    SimonMaher wrote: »
    Thanks for the links! I suppose it depends on your definition of "plenty". I've taken a very quick look at the amount of NEW licences issued by the BAI compared with the licencing activity of OFCOM since 2010. Including Section 71 Radio services I reckon it's about 6 for the BAI and I gave up counting in the second hundred for OFCOM.

    As I've said above, it's a cultural decision which has been taken or indeed two different cultural decisions which have been taken either side of the Irish sea. While the Irish position was understandable, if hopelessly naieve, in the past, the problem is that now that listenership here has started to drop it is very difficult to halt that decline. The ongoing Dublin declines are startling, if unsurprising and their effect directly on Radio's share of revenue will eat away at the past benefits of the protectionist culture very rapidly.

    Anyway, that's a million miles off topic again. Bravo Caroline :)

    Simon

    It must surely be more than six licences since 2010?

    "Protectionism", aka licensing, is exactly what's needed to maintain some sort of diversity on the airwaves. A free for all would not benefit anyone other than the big players.

    As for Radio Caroline, excuse my cynicism, but the whole thing may just be a publicity play. They're still going to broadcast from a ship - why? Medium wave is just about passable for speech but does anyone really want to listen to music on it, in this day and age? It's lovely and nostalgic, but not much more IMO.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 621 ✭✭✭Oscarziggy


    Just to quote :"– Radio Caroline (Radio Caroline AM Broadcasting Ltd) will broadcast a wide range of album music from the 1960s to the present day. It is for people aged 45+ in Suffolk and northern parts of Essex."

    They aren't aiming for an audience of the "mobile phone clutching" youth who haven't a clue what radio is never mind Medium Wave.
    MW is still alive and well -- I listen regularly to Manx Radio on 1368khz especially the end of month collaborations with Radio Caroline North.
    There isn't a link up at the end of May due to coverage of the TT races but there will be one at the end of June 24th/25th .

    The studios are on the Ross Revenge, although some presenters have studios of their own, but the MW transmitter site will be on land .

    Regards


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭SimonMaher


    It must surely be more than six licences since 2010?

    "Protectionism", aka licensing, is exactly what's needed to maintain some sort of diversity on the airwaves. A free for all would not benefit anyone other than the big players.

    As for Radio Caroline, excuse my cynicism, but the whole thing may just be a publicity play. They're still going to broadcast from a ship - why? Medium wave is just about passable for speech but does anyone really want to listen to music on it, in this day and age? It's lovely and nostalgic, but not much more IMO.

    I'm open to correction on the 6. It could be 7, or indeed even 5 but it's a very low number indeed. I have Spirit, a couple of Community Stations and a couple of Section 71s. What am I missing?

    Protectionism and licencing are not the same thing. Both cultural examples set out above use licencing as a means of regulating and dividing a resource but the Irish version just happens to use an extreme form of regulation i.e. not really licencing anything much. I've no idea how that protectionism protects diversity at this point, or indeed going forward. I'm just applying the culture to the numbers and whatever way you look at it, these sums seem self-evident:

    1. In the past, both Ireland and the UK had about 90% of people listening to radio every day.

    2. Nowadays, that figure is 82% in Ireland and 89% in the UK.

    3. The level of radio listening in the two capital cities was similar but now in Dublin it's down to 75%, while in London it's 88%.

    4. Radio revenues here have been hammered by this fall and are in fact being hammered disproportionately to the rate of decrease in listening.

    5. An average UK city of reasonable size (lets pick Leeds as an example - population 750k) has upwards on 70 linear broadcast services (about 20 in Dublin). More people listen in Leeds and more revenue goes to Radio.

    These are just sums! If they're wrong, correct me.

    Simon


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,728 ✭✭✭Former Former


    SimonMaher wrote: »
    I'm open to correction on the 6. It could be 7, or indeed even 5 but it's a very low number indeed. I have Spirit, a couple of Community Stations and a couple of Section 71s. What am I missing?

    Protectionism and licencing are not the same thing. Both cultural examples set out above use licencing as a means of regulating and dividing a resource but the Irish version just happens to use an extreme form of regulation i.e. not really licencing anything much. I've no idea how that protectionism protects diversity at this point, or indeed going forward. I'm just applying the culture to the numbers and whatever way you look at it, these sums seem self-evident:

    1. In the past, both Ireland and the UK had about 90% of people listening to radio every day.

    2. Nowadays, that figure is 82% in Ireland and 89% in the UK.

    3. The level of radio listening in the two capital cities was similar but now in Dublin it's down to 75%, while in London it's 88%.

    4. Radio revenues here have been hammered by this fall and are in fact being hammered disproportionately to the rate of decrease in listening.

    5. An average UK city of reasonable size (lets pick Leeds as an example - population 750k) has upwards on 70 linear broadcast services (about 20 in Dublin). More people listen in Leeds and more revenue goes to Radio.

    These are just sums! If they're wrong, correct me.

    Simon

    I'm not sure Leeds and Dublin are particularly comparable though. Of the 70 radio stations in Leeds, how many are national stations? There might be 750k people in Leeds, but there are 5 million in Yorkshire, more than the entire country here. Those are economies of scale that Dublin and Ireland simply will never have in terms of content generation and distribution, it's a population density that makes things like DAB viable. It's not simply a matter of Ofcom dishing out more licences than BAI.

    I think the idea that freer licensing will lead to more diversity of content is a nice one, but I think what usually happens is that when a free market is left to find its own level, the smaller players get trampled by the big boys.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭SimonMaher


    I'm not sure Leeds and Dublin are particularly comparable though. Of the 70 radio stations in Leeds, how many are national stations? There might be 750k people in Leeds, but there are 5 million in Yorkshire, more than the entire country here. Those are economies of scale that Dublin and Ireland simply will never have in terms of content generation and distribution, it's a population density that makes things like DAB viable. It's not simply a matter of Ofcom dishing out more licences than BAI.

    I think the idea that freer licensing will lead to more diversity of content is a nice one, but I think what usually happens is that when a free market is left to find its own level, the smaller players get trampled by the big boys.

    I think you may be arguing against a point that I'm not actually making here.

    All I'm saying is that the sums suggest (strongly, I would suggest) that the cultural decision that was made (and continues to be made) here is hampering radios ability to halt the decline in both listener numbers and more crucially, revenue.

    On DAB, the alternate philosophy definitely doesn't seem to buy into the notion that DABs only measurement of viability is population density. Just before the Commons broke for the election, they passed new legislation to licence small scale DAB Minimuxes with local-carry obligations and extra-small costbases designed to provide good, linear, local content on a broadcast platform covering populations from 25,000 - 1,000,000.

    It's another example of a very contrasting philosophy but in the end, it's all about the sums and from a calculators perspective - their sums work (audience and revenue maintained) and ours don't.

    Simon


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 621 ✭✭✭Oscarziggy


    We had a good local station start here on FM years ago -- it's still on FM.
    It's also on DAB and has been swallowed up along with 2 of it's "sister" stations.
    The studios have been centralized for all 3 and others out of the local area.
    All 3 stations, receivable here on the local DAB multiplexes, play the same tracks and have the same presenter all at the same time with the only difference being the station i.ds and adverts.

    Regards


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,875 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    SimonMaher wrote: »
    Thanks for the links! I suppose it depends on your definition of "plenty". I've taken a very quick look at the amount of NEW licences issued by the BAI compared with the licencing activity of OFCOM since 2010. Including Section 71 Radio services I reckon it's about 6 for the BAI and I gave up counting in the second hundred for OFCOM.

    Simon

    Four more today (23 May 2017) and they are still advertising the other four (South West Tipp etc) which I linked to earlier. That might suggest that there is some sort of surge going on now if they only managed six in the last seven years.

    http://www.bai.ie/en/contracts-signed-community-radio-services/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭SimonMaher


    Four more today (23 May 2017) and they are still advertising the other four (South West Tipp etc) which I linked to earlier. That might suggest that there is some sort of surge going on now if they only managed six in the last seven years.

    http://www.bai.ie/en/contracts-signed-community-radio-services/

    Ah I get you now DXHOUND2005. These are renewals of existing licences - contracts that are coming to an end and have to be renewed. All of these stations already exist and are on air. The "new" licences currently being advertised are the renewals for Tipp FM, Youghal Community Radio, Life FM and South West Clare Community Radio. No new ones in here sadly.

    Simon


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 613 ✭✭✭The Parish Priest.


    I agree with Simon, in fact I think radio in this country needs massive delegation, sadly tho the dirty pieces of trash who run this country want to control people's life's as much as possible so it ain't gonna happen.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,875 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    SimonMaher wrote: »
    Ah I get you now DXHOUND2005. These are renewals of existing licences - contracts that are coming to an end and have to be renewed. All of these stations already exist and are on air. The "new" licences currently being advertised are the renewals for Tipp FM, Youghal Community Radio, Life FM and South West Clare Community Radio. No new ones in here sadly.

    Simon

    No need to be sad about it. It's not like the 1960's when Caroline and the other pirates came along to shake up the radio scene. It seems now that every town and every university can have its own station if they want it.

    If you can't find anything to listen to these days then most people can go on the internet and listen to all sorts of "radio stations". I think this is the most suitable solution for those who have specialised tastes in music, and think that radio stations should be designed for their personal preferences. Even if that would be a major turn off for the general herd who show their preferences by flocking to the mainstream.

    I didn't check whether every licence in the UK is a new one, but since the Caroline licence is limited to five years, some of them must be renewals as well.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 621 ✭✭✭Oscarziggy




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 228 ✭✭turbocab


    Awful sounding thing, who wants to listen to a mono low quality signal, I even hated it as a kid in the 80s?:confused:

    people have no problem listening to crap audio on smartphones today though


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,875 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Oscarziggy wrote: »

    Simon said he gave up counting the number of OFCOM stations "in the second hundred". I read that to mean there could be thousands. Your link gives the actual number at around 250.

    The last decade has seen the number of community radio stations increase from just a handful to more than 250 stations, each reflecting the local needs and interests of its audience.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,728 ✭✭✭Former Former


    SimonMaher wrote: »
    I think you may be arguing against a point that I'm not actually making here.

    All I'm saying is that the sums suggest (strongly, I would suggest) that the cultural decision that was made (and continues to be made) here is hampering radios ability to halt the decline in both listener numbers and more crucially, revenue.

    On DAB, the alternate philosophy definitely doesn't seem to buy into the notion that DABs only measurement of viability is population density. Just before the Commons broke for the election, they passed new legislation to licence small scale DAB Minimuxes with local-carry obligations and extra-small costbases designed to provide good, linear, local content on a broadcast platform covering populations from 25,000 - 1,000,000.

    It's another example of a very contrasting philosophy but in the end, it's all about the sums and from a calculators perspective - their sums work (audience and revenue maintained) and ours don't.

    Simon

    I guess it's a question of correlation and causation. They have a higher audience and more licences. But do they have a higher audience because they have more licences? I'm not sure how you make that leap.

    Maybe they have more of an audience because of their inherent market advantages? Do we have less of an audience because we have a much younger population, and younger people listen to the radio less? Is it just a historical thing?

    I think bringing a limited number of new services onto broadcast radio would be great, because there's a serious amount of sameness going on, but I think to a large extent you'd be cannibalising the existing audience and that raises questions about commercial viability.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭SimonMaher


    Simon said he gave up counting the number of OFCOM stations "in the second hundred". I read that to mean there could be thousands. Your link gives the actual number at around 250.

    The last decade has seen the number of community radio stations increase from just a handful to more than 250 stations, each reflecting the local needs and interests of its audience.

    This is a pedantic debate but how and ever! The 250 is just community radio stations. Doesn't include any of the (as we would call them) Section 71 licences which are Digital broadcast licences of which there are also hundreds issued since 2010. Nor does it include the new Commercial Franchises, Special Interest broadcasters etc.

    Still many, many, many, many more than 6 :)

    Simon


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭SimonMaher


    I guess it's a question of correlation and causation. They have a higher audience and more licences. But do they have a higher audience because they have more licences? I'm not sure how you make that leap.

    Maybe they have more of an audience because of their inherent market advantages? Do we have less of an audience because we have a much younger population, and younger people listen to the radio less? Is it just a historical thing?

    I think bringing a limited number of new services onto broadcast radio would be great, because there's a serious amount of sameness going on, but I think to a large extent you'd be cannibalising the existing audience and that raises questions about commercial viability.

    I think it's pretty reasonable to assume that if there is more of a range of services available on Broadcast radio then that will increase the amount of people listening to Broadcast radio yes.

    There are two issues related to cannibalising the current audiences by introducing new services:

    1) We made the problem in the first place by creating the sameness by Culture 1 as mentioned above. This has resulted in significant numbers of people (not just crazy kids, but all the way up to 45) leaving linear radio totally. We did and are continuing to do that.

    2) The audience is being canibalised already by Spotify and the streaming services and as of now Radio is losing the revenue to digital. If it was a case that Radio had just lost 7% (with the drop from 89-82%) then it wouldn't be so bad but every percent lost is being amplified in revenue terms.

    Radio hasn't been able to react to the digital world coming along and stealing its clothes. If we stay as we are, the canibalisation will continue and in the end that is what will kill viability. Got to make Radio a compelling medium for both listeners and advertisers and yet again to come back to the sums, currently it is neither. It has an opportunity though to help itself, but Culture 1 (from both BAI and incumbents) is slowly strangling it.

    Simon


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,728 ✭✭✭Former Former


    SimonMaher wrote: »
    I think it's pretty reasonable to assume that if there is more of a range of services available on Broadcast radio then that will increase the amount of people listening to Broadcast radio yes.

    There are two issues related to cannibalising the current audiences by introducing new services:

    1) We made the problem in the first place by creating the sameness by Culture 1 as mentioned above. This has resulted in significant numbers of people (not just crazy kids, but all the way up to 45) leaving linear radio totally. We did and are continuing to do that.

    2) The audience is being canibalised already by Spotify and the streaming services and as of now Radio is losing the revenue to digital. If it was a case that Radio had just lost 7% (with the drop from 89-82%) then it wouldn't be so bad but every percent lost is being amplified in revenue terms.

    Radio hasn't been able to react to the digital world coming along and stealing its clothes. If we stay as we are, the canibalisation will continue and in the end that is what will kill viability. Got to make Radio a compelling medium for both listeners and advertisers and yet again to come back to the sums, currently it is neither. It has an opportunity though to help itself, but Culture 1 (from both BAI and incumbents) is slowly strangling it.

    Simon

    I'm not sure what "Culture 1" is.

    But in order to generate more services on the radio, you need people to want to operate said services - and at the moment, there is simply no demand from anyone to get involved because there is no prospect of a return on investment.

    Likewise, DAB is never going to take off here because we'll never reach the critical mass necessary to make it worthwhile.

    Blaming the BAI is the easy option, and certainly they have a part to play, but a lot of this is just the way things are. You take a country like ours with a small population that is sparsely distributed and you run into challenges.

    Going back to Caroline - these sort of MW community licences are not going to drive up overall listenership one bit. It's a nostalgia play.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭SimonMaher


    I'm not sure what "Culture 1" is.

    But in order to generate more services on the radio, you need people to want to operate said services - and at the moment, there is simply no demand from anyone to get involved because there is no prospect of a return on investment.

    Likewise, DAB is never going to take off here because we'll never reach the critical mass necessary to make it worthwhile.

    Blaming the BAI is the easy option, and certainly they have a part to play, but a lot of this is just the way things are. You take a country like ours with a small population that is sparsely distributed and you run into challenges.

    Going back to Caroline - these sort of MW community licences are not going to drive up overall listenership one bit. It's a nostalgia play.


    Interesting debate this in a good spirit!

    Culture 1 as talked about earlier in the thread is the idea that rather than licencing services that you don't and that lack of licencing protects the incumbents. Culture 2 is the OFCOM philosophy that the only way that broadcast Radio will survive is with a large range of licenced services.

    I can't let the "there is simply no demand from anyone to get involved" statement though. What on earth is that based on? You absolutely need to back that one up with hard facts. Knowing at least 4 groups (just ones that I am aware of) that have been lobbying the BAI in recent months, I'm calling you out on that one.

    I don't buy the DAB argument at all. There is an argument as to whether we've missed the DAB boat by the enforcement of Culture 1 above but given the costs involved in getting DAB on air are now so low, I can see no justification whatsoever for not advertising DAB MUX licences tomorrow. If people take up the space, well and good. If they don't, well that answers that question.

    Agreed that blaming the BAI is an easy option. They do make it very easy though in fairness :). They should be leading the debate and the conversation. There has probably been more public conversation on a few threads on Boards.ie about future direction than there has been in official public consultation and that's not good for anyone.

    Simon


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,728 ✭✭✭Former Former


    SimonMaher wrote: »
    Interesting debate this in a good spirit!

    Culture 1 as talked about earlier in the thread is the idea that rather than licencing services that you don't and that lack of licencing protects the incumbents. Culture 2 is the OFCOM philosophy that the only way that broadcast Radio will survive is with a large range of licenced services.

    I can't let the "there is simply no demand from anyone to get involved" statement though. What on earth is that based on? You absolutely need to back that one up with hard facts. Knowing at least 4 groups (just ones that I am aware of) that have been lobbying the BAI in recent months, I'm calling you out on that one.

    I don't buy the DAB argument at all. There is an argument as to whether we've missed the DAB boat by the enforcement of Culture 1 above but given the costs involved in getting DAB on air are now so low, I can see no justification whatsoever for not advertising DAB MUX licences tomorrow. If people take up the space, well and good. If they don't, well that answers that question.

    Agreed that blaming the BAI is an easy option. They do make it very easy though in fairness :). They should be leading the debate and the conversation. There has probably been more public conversation on a few threads on Boards.ie about future direction than there has been in official public consultation and that's not good for anyone.

    Simon

    It's a hard fact that nearly all the licences that have been renewed in the last couple of years have been renewed with no expressions of interest from anyone other than the incumbent.

    You saying you know of groups who are lobbying the BAI is not a hard fact, but let's look at it anyway. I presume these are groups who want licences, just not in the current licensing framework? And maybe they have a point, but then you have new guys coming in under one set of rules, competing with the existing players who have to stick to another set of more stringent rules. Is that fair?

    And is it OK to lobby a regulator? If it was Communicorp, or the Wireless Group, or RTE lobbying them, would that be OK too? If there's an open call for submissions, and it's all nice and transparent, then fine, but anything else gets very murky.

    DAB is a whole other conversation. Right now, we're in a vicious circle of no content, very low ownership of receivers and no interest from broadcasters. Hard to see how that gets resolved tbh.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭SimonMaher


    It's a hard fact that nearly all the licences that have been renewed in the last couple of years have been renewed with no expressions of interest from anyone other than the incumbent.

    You saying you know of groups who are lobbying the BAI is not a hard fact, but let's look at it anyway. I presume these are groups who want licences, just not in the current licensing framework? And maybe they have a point, but then you have new guys coming in under one set of rules, competing with the existing players who have to stick to another set of more stringent rules. Is that fair?

    And is it OK to lobby a regulator? If it was Communicorp, or the Wireless Group, or RTE lobbying them, would that be OK too? If there's an open call for submissions, and it's all nice and transparent, then fine, but anything else gets very murky.

    DAB is a whole other conversation. Right now, we're in a vicious circle of no content, very low ownership of receivers and no interest from broadcasters. Hard to see how that gets resolved tbh.

    Ah Former, that's disappointing. You got called on your "there is simply no demand" comment and you should either back it up or withdraw it. In the absence of an expression of interest round from the BAI for new licences that receives no responses then you can't leave that claim there. Happy to declare my interest in one of those groups here, it's no secret. Is a fact though :)

    Do you honestly beleive that Communicorp, Wireless, Bay, RTE, IBI, TV3 and others aren't lobbying the BAI on various issues (licencing included) on a regular basis? Seriously? Would be pretty remiss of them not to! Details of much of this lobbying is publically available if you and google have a bit of spare time.

    I can't speak for other groups, but yes there are groups who want licences using different models to the existing ones. You ask is it fair. When did business suddenly become fair? The media world has changed utterly and yep, the rules have to change with it. Global, Bauer etc in the UK have to abide by different rules to, for example, stations on the new minumuxes and they seem to be surviving ok so far! Business has to adapt and radio won't get any special treatment in that regard.

    As for DAB - just licence the thing and let the market decide. To finally bring us back on topic, I think it would be great to have Caroline on DAB+ here too. Sure why not!

    Simon


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,580 ✭✭✭✭Riesen_Meal


    Great documentary on them on YouTube, worth a watch if you are into your radio :



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,728 ✭✭✭Former Former


    SimonMaher wrote: »
    Ah Former, that's disappointing. You got called on your "there is simply no demand" comment and you should either back it up or withdraw it. In the absence of an expression of interest round from the BAI for new licences that receives no responses then you can't leave that claim there. Happy to declare my interest in one of those groups here, it's no secret. Is a fact though :)

    You keep asking me to back it up. I don't know what more you want.

    BAI issues call for expressions of interest. BAI gets no interest. From that, I'm concluding there is no demand. Is that not reasonable?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭SimonMaher


    You keep asking me to back it up. I don't know what more you want.

    BAI issues call for expressions of interest. BAI gets no interest. From that, I'm concluding there is no demand. Is that not reasonable?

    Both Sunshine & TXFM had expressions of Interest in their respective rounds. Check the facts man!

    Simple research job then: Find out when last the BAI ran an expression of Interest round as per the provisions of the Broadcasting Act for NEW licences.

    When did the BAI run an expressions of Interest phase as per the terms of the Broadcasting Act with regard to either the operation of, or Section 71 content provision for a DAB Mux?

    Anybody would think they were afraid of the answers they might get.....

    Simon


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 621 ✭✭✭Oscarziggy


    Going back to Caroline - these sort of MW community licences are not going to drive up overall listenership one bit. It's a nostalgia play.

    Time will tell on that one --I think it will drive up listenership .
    Just about every car has a MW radio and if they can get the 1kw asked for on a decent frequency it will increase the listeners.
    There has been a lot of coverage in the UK press and even on the ITV News at 10 --not everyone streams Radio Caroline to their car system via a mobile phone so every little helps and I think MW will be a big help.
    The area in question - Suffolk - has very big ties to Radio Caroline.
    Just a pity the area is so far away from me -- I'd certainly tune in.
    Regards


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,875 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    SimonMaher wrote: »
    This is a pedantic debate but how and ever! The 250 is just community radio stations. Doesn't include any of the (as we would call them) Section 71 licences which are Digital broadcast licences of which there are also hundreds issued since 2010. Nor does it include the new Commercial Franchises, Special Interest broadcasters etc.

    Still many, many, many, many more than 6 :)

    Simon

    Say there are 1,000 stations in the UK then per population Ireland should have about 73. I counted 72 on this site.

    http://www.frequencyfinder.org.uk/

    Ireland and Scotland are roughly equal in size and population. Doing that comparison there are maybe 80 stations in Scotland, but it is hard to count with the duplicates listed here.

    http://www.radio-now.co.uk/scot.htm

    From one of your other posts:

    I can't speak for other groups, but yes there are groups who want licences using different models to the existing ones.

    The only models I know of are speech and music in varying combinations delivered by AM, FM, DAB and satellite. What models do these groups have in mind that is different from that?

    Or is there any reason they cannot join the tens of thousands of "radio stations" on the internet with a potential audience of billions for their projects?

    https://www.internet-radio.com/


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,806 ✭✭✭An Ciarraioch


    How many people even listen to MW these days?

    Don't forget 5 Live, clearly audible in Kerry after sunset.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Don't forget 5 Live, clearly audible in Kerry after sunset.

    and in Sligo,listen to it all the time,comes in very clearly in winter time as well!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,728 ✭✭✭Former Former


    zorro2566 wrote: »
    and in Sligo,listen to it all the time,comes in very clearly in winter time as well!

    Considering there's a transmitter in Enniskillen, I'd hope so...

    But MW is fine for talk radio. It's not for music.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 400 ✭✭Conway635


    I'll start with a disclaimer: I'm possibly mildly biased having worked for Caroline for three periods in my life: from 87 to 91 when it was offshore and on reasonable power (10kw on 558), again from 1998 to 2000 when it was on DAB in London at weekends and during which time it launched it's own satellite service (as opposed to piggy-backing on other stations, and finally again from 2010 to 2013, at which point online had become the main delivery platform.

    I'm thrilled of course, that Caroline has been awarded this licence, not only because it adds a terrestrial signal back into the mix, but also because, after so many years of being either actively combatted (1964 to 1991) or just ignored (1992 onwards) by the powers that be, it represents an acceptance that Caroline is a credible and established group with something to offer its own niche part of the public.

    As I've said elsewhere, for all of those who struggled in the offshore years, or strived mightily in more recent years, it is our very own "England/Ireland winning the World Cup" moment.

    AM is indeed much less used these days, but for the target age-range and area, there is still use to be had from it. And I'd argue strongly here that the key thing is that this AM signal is not something that the station will be pinning 100% of its survival on - Caroline has managed, after a bleak period of only occasional RSLs in the 90s to be continually on air since February 1999 and self supporting through its own mix of sponsorship, merchandising and supporter contributions. The AM will be a further layer on top of this, but the base financial survival is already proven.

    And finally, I'd argue, as AM frequencies are not much sought over, there is no shortage of spectrum there, and so if they station makes a certain subset of over 45s in eastern England feel a warm glow of nostalgia, it's not going to harm many people by doing so.

    I've always felt that the airwaves should be full. Radio should be like coffee - room for Starbucks and Costa to have lots of shiny shops, but also for for my little cafe with three seats and home baked muffins.

    Steve


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,360 ✭✭✭Declan A Walsh


    Conway635 wrote: »
    I'll start with a disclaimer: I'm possibly mildly biased having worked for Caroline for three periods in my life: from 87 to 91 when it was offshore and on reasonable power (10kw on 558), again from 1998 to 2000 when it was on DAB in London at weekends and during which time it launched it's own satellite service (as opposed to piggy-backing on other stations, and finally again from 2010 to 2013, at which point online had become the main delivery platform.

    I'm thrilled of course, that Caroline has been awarded this licence, not only because it adds a terrestrial signal back into the mix, but also because, after so many years of being either actively combatted (1964 to 1991) or just ignored (1992 onwards) by the powers that be, it represents an acceptance that Caroline is a credible and established group with something to offer its own niche part of the public.

    As I've said elsewhere, for all of those who struggled in the offshore years, or strived mightily in more recent years, it is our very own "England/Ireland winning the World Cup" moment.

    AM is indeed much less used these days, but for the target age-range and area, there is still use to be had from it. And I'd argue strongly here that the key thing is that this AM signal is not something that the station will be pinning 100% of its survival on - Caroline has managed, after a bleak period of only occasional RSLs in the 90s to be continually on air since February 1999 and self supporting through its own mix of sponsorship, merchandising and supporter contributions. The AM will be a further layer on top of this, but the base financial survival is already proven.

    And finally, I'd argue, as AM frequencies are not much sought over, there is no shortage of spectrum there, and so if they station makes a certain subset of over 45s in eastern England feel a warm glow of nostalgia, it's not going to harm many people by doing so.

    I've always felt that the airwaves should be full. Radio should be like coffee - room for Starbucks and Costa to have lots of shiny shops, but also for for my little cafe with three seats and home baked muffins.

    Steve

    Well said Steve. Variety is the spice of life and the more the merrier. I'm mixing my metaphors! What are the chances of you getting involved or has that ship sailed (get it?!)?

    By the way, all that talk about cafes is making me hungry!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭Technocentral


    turbocab wrote: »
    people have no problem listening to crap audio on smartphones today though

    Thats the speaker on smartphones not the delivery format. BBC R 6's stream sounds great on my phone through good headphones as do the stations on the FM radio on it, MW sounds **** even through €1000 speakers!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 621 ✭✭✭Oscarziggy


    Great news today !
    From the Radio Caroline site ---
    "We can now announce that our AM frequency will be 648 kHz with a power of 1000 watts. This is ERP or simply the power radiated by the aerial.
    A transmitter was imported from the Continent a few days ago and is now being modified to suit the frequency. There are further hurdles, but as you can see progress is being made.
    "
    Onwards and upwards
    Regards.


  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Shame only 1 kw. Unlikely to be heard here at any decent audiable level but well done to radio Caroline.

    I'd like to have been able to hear it in the car. Luckily there's not a ME station on 648 that I hear. So possibly at night I might hear it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 621 ✭✭✭Oscarziggy


    Shame only 1 kw. Unlikely to be heard here at any decent audiable level but well done to radio Caroline.

    I'd like to have been able to hear it in the car. Luckily there's not a ME station on 648 that I hear. So possibly at night I might hear it.

    I think this is just a start ---time will tell .
    Regards


  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Hopefully.

    What made a massive difference to my Medium Wave and Shortwave reception was moving to the sticks, massive isn't the word, however , there's still plenty of horrid noise sources in the house, switch mode power supplies in the likes of mobile phone chargers, laptop chargers tv power supplies, satellite tv receivers and led lights, Plasma TV's are the worst of the worst, luckily not many around these days.

    I've binned some LED lights due to horrific RFI.

    I recently purchased a Tecsun S2000, great MW reception and has an input for a Loop Antenna which I must try out and also some other antenna inputs. I installed 4 10,000 Mah and with a lot of usage over the last week it hasn't dropped a single battery bar yet, another reason I love good O'l analogue Radio !


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