Are taxis public transport?

Stephen15

Do you class taxis as public or private transport? Do you think they should be allowed in bus lanes?

me_irl

Here we go.

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/taxi-and-bus-licensing/taxi/operating-an-spsv/bus-lanes/

vicwatson

Only if they have passengers, otherwise no

Edit - just saw link. How do ya police whether they are on their way home or not !

me_irl

vicwatson wrote: »

Only if they have passengers, otherwise no

Edit - just saw link. How do ya police whether they are on their way home or not !

True.

If a taxi driver is stopped he / she could just use that excuse.

LeinsterDub

vicwatson wrote: »

Only if they have passengers, otherwise no

Edit - just saw link. How do ya police whether they are on their way home or not !

They don't

Stephen15

me_irl wrote: »

Here we go.

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/taxi-and-bus-licensing/taxi/operating-an-spsv/bus-lanes/

Just another question I could ask aswell should out of service buses be in bus lanes and should emergency be in them when they're not responding under blue lights and sirens. Also are taxis allowed in bus lanes when going to a job.

me_irl

Stephen15 wrote: »

Just another question I could ask aswell should out of service buses be in bus lanes and should emergency be in them when they're not responding under blue lights and sirens. Also are taxis allowed in bus lanes when going to a job.

Not sure about out of service buses.. but they have a schedule / depot to get back and adhere to so that could be the reason.

And I wouldn't fault emergency services using them if they're suddenly called.

Also, the first line in the link above...

A taxi can use a normal (with-flow) bus lane only while it is operating as an SPSV – carrying a passenger, on the way to pick up a pre-booked customer

vicwatson

LeinsterDub wrote: »

They don't

Therefore it should be a case if you don't have passengers get outta the lane. But as usual it's fudged

me_irl

vicwatson wrote: »

Therefore it should be a case if you don't have passengers get outta the lane. But as usual it's fudged

The alternative then is to have taxi's taking up space in 'normal' lanes.

magicbastarder

Stephen15 wrote: »

Do you think they should be allowed in bus lanes?

i have two options - i can drive into town, and take up a space in a lane with a car which is bringing one person into town, or i can take a taxi. all of a sudden, this car sized object bringing one person into town can now use a protected lane. why should this be the case? it is absolutely no more of an effective use of the bus lane than a private car would be.

vicwatson

me_irl wrote: »

The alternative then is to have taxi's taking up space in 'normal' lanes.

Just like normal drivers. That pay hundreds of euro more on road tax.

n97 mini

To make the best use of bus lanes they should be open to high occupancy vehicles, like in other countries​. I think allowing taxis with no customers on board is a historical sop.

StreetLight

vicwatson wrote: »

That pay hundreds of euro more on road tax.

Road tax?

Peregrinus

magicbastarder wrote: »

i have two options - i can drive into town, and take up a space in a lane with a car which is bringing one person into town, or i can take a taxi. all of a sudden, this car sized object bringing one person into town can now use a protected lane. why should this be the case? it is absolutely no more of an effective use of the bus lane than a private car would be.

But a taxi, in the course of a day, might carry twenty or thirty passengers, each of whom would have to use their own car if a taxi were not available. The cheaper and more efficient a taxi service is, the greater the number of people who will opt to use it, and to leave their cars at home.

In general, the view is each taxi on the road removes more than one private car from the road, so any measures that you take that encourage taxi use or make it more attractive will tend to reduce traffic congestion.

Allowing empty taxis to use the bus lanes means that after dropping a fare off they can travel more quickly to areas of high demand to pick up a new fare, which improves the efficiency and attractiveness of the taxi service. That's the argument, anyway.

Pawwed Rig

Struggling to see how using a taxi decreases congestion.

The J Stands for Jay

me_irl wrote: »

The alternative then is to have taxi's taking up space in 'normal' lanes.

I don't see why not. It's just the same as any other vehicle taking up space in the non-bus lanes. What's so special about taxis?

Peregrinus

McGaggs wrote: »

I don't see why not. It's just the same as any other vehicle taking up space in the non-bus lanes. What's so special about taxis?

The suggestion is that have one extra taxi on the road removes more than one private car from the roads, thereby reducing congestion.

Basically, one taxi is used by numerous people over the course of the day to make various journeys. If that taxi were not there then some, most or all of those journeys would be made in private cars, and each in a separate car.

At any time each taxi is displacing only one private car, obviously. But over the course of the day it displaces numerous different cars, each of which would have been driven into town at the start of the day, driven out of town at the end of the day, and parked somewhere in town during the day.

Basically, sharing cars reduces congestion, since the same number of journeys can be made with fewer cars. This calculation doesn't change because the shared car happens to be a taxi.

Pawwed Rig

Over the course of the day it displaces 1 car at a time. I can see the parking argument but that is more than made up for by taxis hanging around the city

Peregrinus

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Over the course of the day it displaces 1 car at a time. I can see the parking argument but that is more than made up for by taxis hanging around the city

No, it's not, since (a) the taxi is in frequent use during the day and so spends less time "hanging around", and (b) even when it is hanging around, it only requires one space, whereas each car that it displaces would require a separate space.

Similarly, if taxis can use buslanes and so complete a given commmuter journey in (say) 20 minutes rather than 30, then at rush hour 10 taxis could displace 15 private cars, a net reduction of five cars on the road at rush hour.

And there's a further saving if the ready availability and efficient operation of taxis during the working day means that people who, because they can use taxis during the day, don't need to bring their private car to work and take the bus or train instead. That doesn't just save on parking; it reduces rush-hour congestion at a different time from the time of the taxi-journey.

The bottom line is that private car use for commuting is extraordinarily inefficient. If I commute by car I bring, what, a ton-and-a-half of metal with me, I have to store it somewhere for the day either at my expense or at someone else's, and then I bring it home again? How does that make sense? Taxis are a form of shared car use, and if a taxi displaces anything over one commuter journey by car, that's a net gain.

Taxis, ubers, carpooling, carsharing - all reduce traffic congestion.

magicbastarder

Peregrinus wrote: »

But over the course of the day it displaces numerous different cars, each of which would have been driven into town at the start of the day, driven out of town at the end of the day, and parked somewhere in town during the day.

but the taxi is on the road *all day*, contributing to congestion all day, whereas each of the private cars might only be on the road for half an hour (or whatever the average journey time is).
i accept the parking argument, but that's based on the assumption that the private car will be taking up a parking spot which another car could otherwise use. i don't know what figures there are regarding the destination of private cars.

re the argument about taxis using bus lanes and completing their journeys quicker than private cars, thus displacing them more efficiently - you could make that argument about private cars too, were they allowed use the bus lane?

sure, you can argue that taxis are more efficient than private cars (to take your example, which i'm sure you didn't advance as a serious watertight argument), they're 33% more efficient - but 33% more efficient than an 'extraordinarily inefficient' mode of transport sounds a little like damning with faint praise.

i think my main issue is that it boils down to the fact that (especially at rush hour, when space in lanes *is* at a premium), taxis are able to use bus lanes, and take up half the space of a bus, with probably 5% the occupancy.

Pawwed Rig

I don't think that anyone would argue that private car use is an issue but I don't think taxis are a good solution. I would be more in favour of disallowing taxi use in buslanes and having more frequent point to point buses and trains.
In fact I can see a good argument in banning single occupancy multi person vehicles from the city altogether.

Peregrinus

magicbastarder wrote: »

but the taxi is on the road *all day*, contributing to congestion all day, whereas each of the private cars might only be on the road for half an hour (or whatever the average journey time is).

No, the private cars, or at least some of them, will be on the road for longer. If I'm commuting to work in my car because I need my car to make work-related journey during the day, then the consequence of my using the car for work-related journeys is not just that it's on the road for the length of the work-related journey; it's also that it's on the road for the length of my inward and outward commuting journey as well (which of course happen at a time of maximum congestion).

magicbastarder wrote: »

i accept the parking argument, but that's based on the assumption that the private car will be taking up a parking spot which another car could otherwise use. i don't know what figures there are regarding the destination of private cars.

Obviously you can't say of a particular private car whether it will park on the road or somewhere else. But what we can say is that a huge amount of road space potentially useable for driving on is taken up with parking, and if you can reduce the number of cars that are driven into commercial/office districts and then parked all day, that will tend to free up roadspace which is then available for actually driving from A to B.

(This, incidentally, is expected to be one of the big savings from self-driving cars, when we have them. At the moment, I not only need to park my car but I need to park it somewhere reasonably convenient to my destination. With a self-driving car, I can alight at my destination and then send it to park itself off-street somewhere that could be a couple of kilometres away. The result will be a huge reduction in demand for - and availability of - on-street parking. But that's a different discussion.)

magicbastarder wrote: »

re the argument about taxis using bus lanes and completing their journeys quicker than private cars, thus displacing them more efficiently - you could make that argument about private cars too, were they allowed use the bus lane?

Not really. The point about bus lanes is to displace private cars by making other forms of transport more efficient and attractive. You can't displace private cars by making the use of private cars more efficient and attractive.

Besides, if you allow private cars to use bus lanes, you effectively don't have any bus lanes. Buses, taxis, etc, lose a great deal, and private cars gain very little.

magicbastarder wrote: »

sure, you can argue that taxis are more efficient than private cars (to take your example, which i'm sure you didn't advance as a serious watertight argument), they're 33% more efficient - but 33% more efficient than an 'extraordinarily inefficient' mode of transport sounds a little like damning with faint praise.

Yes, the figures are plucked out of the air, to illustrate the point, rather than to quantify the benefit.

But as for "damning with faint praise", no. The important thing here is not that the taxis are 33% (or whatever) more efficient than a very inefficient mode of transport; it's that they are [33%] more efficient than the dominant mode of transport.

magicbastarder wrote: »

i think my main issue is that it boils down to the fact that (especially at rush hour, when space in lanes *is* at a premium), taxis are able to use bus lanes, and take up half the space of a bus, with probably 5% the occupancy.

The measure of the utility of a buslane is not how much space a vehicle takes up; it's how much quicker a journey is in a buslane than it would be in an unrestricted lane. Allowing taxis to use the buslane is a problem if it causes bus journeys to be significantly slower than they would otherwise be. Which, I agree, is something you would want to monitor.

Sam Russell

If taxis were very cheap, then the argument for them using bus lanes is stronger as they are more likely to get commuters to use them than take their car to work and park all day. Taxi sharing would also strengthen this argument.

Increasing all-day parking charges might also achieve this, as would reducing bus fares.

Mrs OBumble

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

I don't think that anyone would argue that private car use is an issue but I don't think taxis are a good solution. I would be more in favour of disallowing taxi use in buslanes and having more frequent point to point buses and trains.
In fact I can see a good argument in banning single occupancy multi person vehicles from the city altogether.

Taxis are a great solution for some people . Especially the elderly and disabled, and people going at times or to places which buses don't serve.

Your second suggestion is pure and simple relationship discrimination. You're saying that because someone is single they should never go anywhere by car - not even use a rental car to pick up their stuff when moving house or going on holiday. Or a person whose partner gets sick and is in hospital ... cannot use the car while they're away. Madness.

magicbastarder

i don't know if drawing the comparison between 'single occupancy' and 'single people' is warranted?

vicwatson

StreetLight wrote: »

Road tax?

An old name for Motor tax, apologies if it wasn't obvious to what I was referring

bk

n97 mini wrote: »

To make the best use of bus lanes they should be open to high occupancy vehicles, like in other countries​. I think allowing taxis with no customers on board is a historical sop.

This normally only happens on large multi-lane interstates in the US, where you have 4 or more lanes going in each direction. It almost never happens on Irish style, city center bus lanes.

I spend quiet a bit of time in California and it is quiet shocking how empty these lanes are. It is normally just the odd Tesla booming down them *

* EV's are also given access to these lanes, even when only one occupant.

Peregrinus wrote: »

The suggestion is that have one extra taxi on the road removes more than one private car from the roads, thereby reducing congestion.

I'm sorry but that makes zero logical sense.

A taxi ride simply displaces an equal number of car journeys. It might reduce required parking in the city center, but it does nothing to reduce congestion.

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Taxis are a great solution for some people . Especially the elderly and disabled, and people going at times or to places which buses don't serve.

They you go again! :rolleyes:

Just because someone is elderly or disabled, doesn't give them any more rights then anybody else. They can of course take a taxi if they like, but there is no particular reason why that Taxi in turn should be allowed to use the bus lane.

My opinion on the subject is that Taxis shouldn't be allowed to use bus lanes. Definitely not inside the canals anyway.

There might be an argument to allow them in the bus lane if they are carrying more then one passenger, but only if enforced by automated cameras and strict penalty points for otherwise using them and no use of them when only one passenger in them or heading to a job.

Either way there should be strict policing of taxi's crawling along the bus lane on Georges Street, etc. at night hoping to pick up a fare or parking in bus stops (Westmorland St). There should be penalty points and fines all around for Taxis doing this.

n97 mini

bk wrote: »

This normally only happens on large multi-lane interstates in the US, where you have 4 or more lanes going in each direction. It almost never happens on Irish style, city center bus lanes.

I drove around a lot of the US last summer. It varies from state to state. Some will have the 3rd lane as the HOV lane, some are empty, and some are full. HOV usually (universally) means 2+ people. A lot of them allow you to pay a small toll to use them if you've less than 2 in the car.

But the point is here we have a bus lane on a lot of road where these is only one other lane, and that bus lane will have empty taxis in it. Not a good use of road space.

Ashbx

I don't see the problem with taxis using bus lanes. Even if they were banned from bus lanes, it doesn't mean the regular road users would be allowed to use bus lanes and they are certainly not going to get rid of the bus lanes altogether so its a bit of a moot discussion in my opinion. What difference does it make for you personally that taxis use bus lanes? Other than jealousy that they get to fly down the road while we have to sit in traffic.

I think the main advantage of bus lanes to normal road users is that you are not getting stopped and stuck behind service vehicles picking up passengers. Its more frustrating getting stuck behind a taxi who has pulled in to get a fare than to see one pass you on in the bus lane.

magicbastarder

Ashbx wrote: »

What difference does it make for you personally that taxis use bus lanes? Other than jealousy that they get to fly down the road while we have to sit in traffic.

i don't have to be a private motorist for a taxi to affect my experience of the road. at rush hour, taxis can affect the efficiency of bus lanes for bus passengers.

bk

n97 mini wrote: »

I drove around a lot of the US last summer. It varies from state to state. Some will have the 3rd lane as the HOV lane, some are empty, and some are full. HOV usually (universally) means 2+ people. A lot of them allow you to pay a small toll to use them if you've less than 2 in the car.

In my experience, the states with full HOV lanes are the states where they allow you to pay to use it, even if only one passenger.

The states where HOV is limited to only 2+ people (and EV's) then they are much quieter.

I'd argue that the first example is unattractive, it is basically making life easier for better off people and I don't think such a policy would be accepted in Ireland (see congesting charging).

n97 mini wrote: »

But the point is here we have a bus lane on a lot of road where these is only one other lane, and that bus lane will have empty taxis in it. Not a good use of road space.

A bus lane doesn't have to be full of buses to make it a success. It just needs to carry more people per hour then the car lane beside it, which a smaller number of buses can certainly do.

In fact a bus lane with back to back buses is a sure sign that it has reached it's max capacity and you want to be looking at adding a second bus lane if possible or looking at Luas/Trams or Metro along the route.

I agree with you that empty Taxi's aren't beneficial.

The idea of allowing 2+ (or 3+ in the case of a Taxi, the driver doesn't count) in bus lanes isn't a terrible idea, at least outside the canals, however I'd worry it wouldn't be adequately enforced in Ireland, like so many things aren't here and that it would quickly become a free for all.

Ashbx wrote: »

I don't see the problem with taxis using bus lanes. Even if they were banned from bus lanes, it doesn't mean the regular road users would be allowed to use bus lanes and they are certainly not going to get rid of the bus lanes altogether so its a bit of a moot discussion in my opinion. What difference does it make for you personally that taxis use bus lanes? Other than jealousy that they get to fly down the road while we have to sit in traffic.

I don't think the OP is jealous. I think the question is that impact empty or almost empty taxis have on slowing down and blocking buses in the bus lane.

There are certainly plenty of examples of this around the city, such as the row of taxis crawling along the bus lane on Georges Street every night, hoping to get a fare from someone coming out of one of the pubs/restaurants there, but massively delaying the buses in the lanes there.

And then there is the issue of taxi's blocking bus stops.

It will likely come a major issue along the Luas Cross City line where at certain points along the line (e.g. College Green) buses and taxi's will be sharing the road space with Luas.

HivemindXX

Dealing with the theory/loophole that taxi drivers feel allows them to stop whenever they like, regardless of whether it blocks a lane of traffic, to pick up or set down fares would probably have a bigger impact.

I do consider taxis to be public transport and I have no problem with them using the bus lanes (provided they use them in a responsible manner). Taxis driving in the bus lane have a minor impact compared to, for example, the ones I regularly see stopping at the Morrison Hotel just before the Jervis Street turn on the North Quays in Dublin. These block not only the bus lane, plus any cars that are legitimately in the lane to turn down Jervis Street but they also cause other vehicles (mostly taxis) to try and push out in to the already very busy middle lane to get past them. Chaos and frustration ensues.

refusetolose

didn't michael o leary own a taxi just so he could use the bus lanes?

Stephen15

I think they shoud definitely be banned from the bus lanes in the city centre most cars in the cc are taxis so it kind of demoralises the point of the bus lanes in the cc. I dont have a problem with it the rest in other bus lanes but in the cc they shouldnt be allowed.

coylemj

I fail to see the logic of why a privately owned car should be allowed to use a bus lane simply because the passenger is paying the driver for the trip.

Remember that they only got to use the bus lanes because Sean Dublin-Bay Loftus was mayor of Dublin and he caved in to their pressure because a load of taxi drivers lived on the northside and could vote for him, the same reason why they later had Ivor Callely lobbying against deregulation despite massive queues for taxis at weekends in the city.

magicbastarder

are go cars allowed use the bus lane?
if i was to hire a pool car, would i be allowed use the bus lane? a pool car and a taxi differ in this case in that the taxi has a chauffeur of sorts.

Mrs OBumble

bk wrote: »

They you go again! :rolleyes:

Just because someone is elderly or disabled, doesn't give them any more rights then anybody else. They can of course take a taxi if they like, but there is no particular reason why that Taxi in turn should be allowed to use the bus lane.

.

They have equal rights to access public transport, though.

For some who simply cannot walk to a bus stop, taxis are essential.

And of course they are part of the public transport infrastructre.

magicbastarder

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

For some who simply cannot walk to a bus stop, taxis are essential.

that has no bearing on the issue of whether taxis should be allowed use bus lanes.

Peregrine

Ashbx wrote: »

I don't see the problem with taxis using bus lanes. Even if they were banned from bus lanes, it doesn't mean the regular road users would be allowed to use bus lanes and they are certainly not going to get rid of the bus lanes altogether so its a bit of a moot discussion in my opinion. What difference does it make for you personally that taxis use bus lanes? Other than jealousy that they get to fly down the road while we have to sit in traffic.

I think the main advantage of bus lanes to normal road users is that you are not getting stopped and stuck behind service vehicles picking up passengers. Its more frustrating getting stuck behind a taxi who has pulled in to get a fare than to see one pass you on in the bus lane.

What a bizarre and self-centric post. Did you even consider bus users when talking about bus lanes?

The problem is that taxis using bus lanes is taking space from much more efficient users of the space such as busses and cyclists. Not private car jealousy!

Sleeper12

Stephen15 wrote:

Just another question I could ask aswell should out of service buses be in bus lanes and should emergency be in them when they're not responding under blue lights and sirens. Also are taxis allowed in bus lanes when going to a job.

I wouldn't have a problem with the emergency vehicles using the bus lane. Although the ambulance blue lights aren't on I'd imagine that it's important that they get back to base ASAP. Back of the ambulance may need to be hosed out or simply just cleaned and disinfected before it can respond to another emergency

n97 mini

bk wrote: »

In my experience, the states with full HOV lanes are the states where they allow you to pay to use it, even if only one passenger.

The states where HOV is limited to only 2+ people (and EV's) then they are much quieter.

Wouldn't be my experience. Off the top of my head Utah has pay per play but people don't really bother.

bk

With relation to emergency vehicles, per the Road Traffic Act, it doesn't apply to Gardai on duty and they can basically do whatever they like. Even when not on an emergency call.

Personally I've no problem at all with emergency vehicles of all types using bus lanes, even if not actively on a call.

For instance you don't want Gardai from the Traffic Corp just sitting in traffic when their isn't an emergency, you ideal want them patrolling around and covering as much ground as quickly as possible even when their isn't emergency.

Same with Ambulances and Firebrigades. They might not be on an active emergency (maybe returning from one) but it is often important for them to get back to base quickly in order to restock, etc.

To be honest, I don't see many Ambulances and Firebrigades generally out and about outside going to and from emergencies and I'd actually like to see a lot more Gardai in our bus lanes!

dashcamdanny

One bicycle can slow up a bus journey way more than a taxi . 5 cycles in rush hour, spread up the length of the bus lane leave the bus lane unusable by a bus .

Why not ban everything but buses?


The problem IMO is not the fact that taxis use the bus lanes, its the ridiculous amount of taxi licences given out. Therefore the ridicules amount to taxis clogging up the place.

DirkVoodoo

dashcamdanny wrote: »

One bicycle can slow up a bus journey way more than a taxi . 5 cycles in rush hour, spread up the length of the bus lane leave the bus lane unusable by a bus .

Why not ban everything but buses?

I think if you're going to make a point, it should at least be based on some evidence rather than a theoretical situation where 5 bikes are riding across a lane:

The canals are free flowing during off-peak hours and come to a standstill during rush hour. This is despite having to share the road with a dedicated bike lane.

The fact is that the sheer volume of cars in the city is what leads to congestion.

I have seen buses have to slow down behind bikes, i have never seen the city come to a standstill because of bike traffic.

dashcamdanny

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

I think if you're going to make a point, it should at least be based on some evidence rather than a theoretical situation where 5 bikes are riding across a lane:

The canals are free flowing during off-peak hours and come to a standstill during rush hour. This is despite having to share the road with a dedicated bike lane.

The fact is that the sheer volume of cars in the city is what leads to congestion.

I have seen buses have to slow down behind bikes, i have never seen the city come to a standstill because of bike traffic.

Im not saying you come to a standstill.

For example
Anyone traveling up from George street out of the city on a bus will know you cant really use the bus lane and get ahead of traffic very well. You get stuck behind the slowest rider. You may as well stay in the main traffic lane some times. Then there is the bus contraflow up there. You stop, 10 cycles pull up in front of you, all riding up hill. Bus is restricted to 5mph . Get ahead if you are lucky after the canal, but the bus cant pull into the bus stops without cutting them up coming up the left, then they re-overtake and the same continues the whole way up the road. If you need evidence, ride the bus.
A bus will not fit in a bus lane with a cycle lane so its not like the canal.

Bikes need there own space away from the 20 tonne bus full of people.
Taxis stop to pick up a fare and are gone out of your way.

This is the bus stop near the spawell. If they could do this everywere it would be a great start. Wasted in this location though.
https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.2895869,-6.340598,118m/data=!3m1!1e3

boobycharlton

Chapelizod bypass/n4 bus lanes are always held up by cyclists in the evenings when I get the 51D home, the more expensive supposedly express bus. The bus has to crawl along behind them, with no room to pass, as adjacent lanes are full of stationary traffic. It is very annoying.

The J Stands for Jay

The amount of times I'm on a bike and get held up by buses. Lincoln Place and Westland Row are ridiculous for it.

n97 mini

McGaggs wrote: »

The amount of times I'm on a bike and get held up by buses. Lincoln Place and Westland Row are ridiculous for it.

Not comparable unless the bus has less passengers than your bike.

The J Stands for Jay

n97 mini wrote: »

Not comparable unless the bus has less passengers than your bike.

They often are empty, but I was just highlighting the poor logic in demanding to remove bikes from the bike and bus lane in a thread asking why taxis can drive in the bike and bus lane.

dashcamdanny

McGaggs wrote: »

They often are empty, but I was just highlighting the poor logic in demanding to remove bikes from the bike and bus lane in a thread asking why taxis can drive in the bike and bus lane.

I think the thread hits on what is holding up public transport.

Taxis and illegal private cars at junctions and bicycles everywhere. Yet motorcycles are not technically allowed in them, and dont hold a bus up in anyway anywhere. .

Irish.

n97 mini

Maybe bikes should be on another thread.