Court question

torrevieja

Hi folks I have beeen supenoed to the district court civil case as a witness and I am not at home at present I'm on business ,so I'm not exactly sure what's on the form
I only got the information today and they want me there Friday but I won't back till sunday
I rang the legal woman she was giving me lots of legal jargon I said your giving me 3days notice I can't make it

And I tried to explain I would be away the week after next for two weeks surely u get a months notice

Interested in your comments

Do I need a solicitor. .?

Thanks guys

coylemj

If it's a civil case and you can't make it, it's someone else's problem. This isn't remotely like the situation where you get a Garda summons to appear as a defendant and no, you do not need a solicitor.

It sounds like you've been given short notice by phone, that is not the same as being 'served' with a subpoena.

You rang the 'legal woman' and she gave you 'lots of legal jargon' - is she a solicitor in this case (i.e. acting for one of the parties) or is she an official of the District Court?

torrevieja

Hi its a witness summons
Saying you are hearby required to attend and give evidence in these proceedings at the district court for the hearing of civil proceedings and so from day to day etc signed by the judge of the district court letter dated the 10th of may

They are legal executives acting on there behalf threating me with a bench warrant

With a cheque from them for 25 Euro

coylemj

Terms like 'legal executive' and 'legal woman' tell us nothing.

Q1. The person who is calling you - is she an official of the District Court or a person who works for a firm of solicitor involved in the case?

Q2. The 'witness summons'.... is this a physical piece of paper in the hands of you or someone at the house where you live i.e. was it served on you or someone who lives with you - if yes, when?

Q3. You said you rang the 'legal woman', how did you get her phone number?

torrevieja

coylemj wrote: »

Terms like 'legal executive' and 'legal woman' tell us nothing.

Q1. The person who is calling you - is she an official of the District Court or a person who works for a firm of solicitor involved in the case?

Q2. The 'witness summons'.... is this a physical piece of paper in the hands of you or someone at the house where you live i.e. was it served on you or someone who lives with you - if yes, when?

Q3. You said you rang the 'legal woman', how did you get her phone number?

Q1 from what I can see the person who called to the address is auctioneer and property management is using this alias legal executive I will pm u the details if u want

Q2 this person handed this piece of paper to a person who lives in the house today at 13.00 time

Q3 this person left there business card on the paper , I already told this person a few months ago , I can not be certain of what I seen

coylemj

torrevieja wrote: »

Q1 from what I can see the person who called to the address is auctioneer and property management is using this alias legal executive I will pm u the details if u want

Well there's no need for you to repeat the 'legal executive' stuff since it's clearly BS.

Don't PM me anything.

The document that was handed in, is it an official witness summons, is it headed 'District Court' and is there a harp on it?

torrevieja

coylemj wrote: »

Well there's no need for you to repeat the 'legal executive' stuff since it's clearly BS.

Don't PM me anything.

The document that was handed in, is it an official witness summons, is it headed 'District Court' and is there a harp on it?

No harp on it

S.I No 12 of 2087

Witness summons
Schedule B
O. 36 r1

District court area of Dublin metropolitan

coylemj

3. (1) A witness summons must be served personally or by registered post on the witness named in the witness summons, unless the Court orders otherwise.

(2) If it appears to the Court that a witness served with a witness summons was not given reasonable time to enable him or her to appear as directed in the witness summons, or that his or her reasonable expenses of attending have not been paid or offered to him or her, the Court may set aside or disregard service of the witness summons.


http://www.courts.ie/rules.nsf/0/05EA1CAC39CB19AF80257C900046A699

Contact the court office, quote the case number on the summons, say that you have not been given sufficient notice and will not be attending. Mention that the summons was not served personally (i.e. into your hand).

torrevieja

coylemj wrote: »

3. (1) A witness summons must be served personally or by registered post on the witness named in the witness summons, unless the Court orders otherwise.

(2) If it appears to the Court that a witness served with a witness summons was not given reasonable time to enable him or her to appear as directed in the witness summons, or that his or her reasonable expenses of attending have not been paid or offered to him or her, the Court may set aside or disregard service of the witness summons.


http://www.courts.ie/rules.nsf/0/05EA1CAC39CB19AF80257C900046A699

Contact the court office, quote the case number on the summons, say that you have not been given sufficient notice and will not be attending. Mention that the summons was not served personally (i.e. into your hand).

Should I also mention to them that I will not be available from the 29th may for two weeks as I will be away on holidays .?

coylemj

torrevieja wrote: »

Should I also mention to them that I will not be available from the 29th may for two weeks as I will be away on holidays .?

By all means tell them but the main purpose of the call is to establish that you have not been given adequate notice.

And tell the official in the court office that the summons was handed (don't use the term 'served') to a person at your address so you don't regard it as having been properly served.

torrevieja

I let u know how I get on ,

now to find the case number

coylemj

torrevieja wrote: »

I let u know how I get on ,

now to find the case number

If you can't find a case reference number, the hearing date, court no. and the names of the plaintiff and defendant will be sufficient.

torrevieja

Well I rang the courts today I explained it to a guy there and he said this is the normal way these people work there obviously trying to get money for there client,
He did suggest getting back to this person who came to the house, he then realised I was through to the Circuit Court but gave me the details of the District Court of two people to contact

which I rang and rang but only got an answering machine I left info for them to get back to me but I didn't get any call,

He did mention an email civiloffice@courts.ie. but that address seems to be not correct if anyone knows this email I'd appreciate it.

So I got back to this woman who came to the house I sent her an email of what I said to the clerk and gave two weeks date of a time I would be unavailable and immediately I got a response ::::

"""By way of confirmation the fact that you have acknowledged receipt of this witness summons and confirmed so by telephone call to me directly and your reference to same in your email to me of even date does in itself confirm service and your confirmation of your requirements as per

. I will of course make the court aware of your circumstances."""

torrevieja

Did u see that last message coylemj

coylemj

Nobody is going to ask for a bench warrant to force their witness to turn up in court in handcuffs. She is saying that the fact that you are aware of the existence of the witness summons constitutes valid 'service', this sounds like complete BS.

You told her the notice was too short so in turn she is aware that you cannot attend and if I was you I would not attend as the rule (3.2) quoted in post #8 above will apply.

Wait for her to get back to you, chances are they are holding you out as a prospective witness to improve their bargaining position with the other side - who I've no doubt are not aware that you've already told that lady that you're not sure of what you saw which means you'd be a useless witness anyway - not intended as a personal slight.

torrevieja

Just a question do u not have to make a statement to be called as a witness

coylemj

torrevieja wrote: »

Just a question do u not have to make a statement to be called as a witness

In a civil case there's no hard and fast rule and neither is there a specific rule concerning criminal cases in the District Court. But you'd expect that a solicitor who has had a witness summons issued for you to attend would already have an account of your prospective evidence on paper.

I repeat what I said earlier, having you listed as a witness sounds like a bluff to pressure the other side into a settlement.

GM228

coylemj wrote: »

If it's a civil case and you can't make it, it's someone else's problem

In general I would not dismiss a witness summons so quickly. At the end of the day it is a court order compelling you to attend.

Whilst very unlikely, it is possible that a judge could issue a warrant for your arrest for failure to attend, however that would obviously be subject to satisfaction of being duly served the summons, given reasonable notice etc.

coylemj wrote: »

3. (1) A witness summons must be served personally or by registered post on the witness named in the witness summons, unless the Court orders otherwise.

(2) If it appears to the Court that a witness served with a witness summons was not given reasonable time to enable him or her to appear as directed in the witness summons, or that his or her reasonable expenses of attending have not been paid or offered to him or her, the Court may set aside or disregard service of the witness summons.


http://www.courts.ie/rules.nsf/0/05EA1CAC39CB19AF80257C900046A699

Contact the court office, quote the case number on the summons, say that you have not been given sufficient notice and will not be attending. Mention that the summons was not served personally (i.e. into your hand).

Though unlikely it is possible that the court allowed for the summons to be served via other means, personally I have not seen that option used, but it is possible, but otherwise I would agree that there is an issue with service of the summons as it must be "served personally or by registered post on the witness". It was served personally but not on the person named.

The question arises as to what is considered "reasonable time" in a civil case witness summons? Is there a test for such, is it objective or subjective etc? Also if it is considered unreasonable notice the court "may" set aside the summons, note that it does not say the court "shall" set aside. It is basically at the discretion of the court.

In a criminal case only 3 days notice is required for a witness summons but obviously there are reasons for such due to their nature.

Kevin3

GM228 wrote: »

In a criminal case only 3 days notice is required for a witness summons but obviously there are reasons for such due to their nature.

As an aside, what is the actual source for the 3 days notice for witness summons and while I'm at it the 7 days notice for the offender or 21 days if by registered post.

I presumed it was contained somewhere in the district court rules but I can't find it and I can't find it in any legislation. Put me out of my misery please.

Really Interested

Kevin3 wrote: »

As an aside, what is the actual source for the 3 days notice for witness summons and while I'm at it the 7 days notice for the offender or 21 days if by registered post.

I presumed it was contained somewhere in the district court rules but I can't find it and I can't find it in any legislation. Put me out of my misery please.

http://www.courts.ie/rules.nsf/0c609d7abff72c1c80256d2b0045bb64/0638baae4c74c68780256d2b0046a04a?OpenDocument

[Signing and service of summons]
(3) Such summons shall be signed by the Judge, Clerk or Peace Commissioner issuing it, and with it there shall also be issued a copy for service upon each person to whom it is directed, and such copies shall be served at least three clear days before the date fixed for the hearing of the complaint.

The above is criminal civil is Order 41

GM228

Kevin3 wrote: »

As an aside, what is the actual source for the 3 days notice for witness summons and while I'm at it the 7 days notice for the offender or 21 days if by registered post.

I presumed it was contained somewhere in the district court rules but I can't find it and I can't find it in any legislation. Put me out of my misery please.

RI has detailed where the 3 days comes from (Order 21).

To answer your other question, the 7 and 21 day requirement comes from Order 41.

http://www.courts.ie/rules.nsf/0c609d7abff72c1c80256d2b0045bb64/568aa06b506c092780257c900046a5b4?OpenDocument

Time for service before hearing

18. Save where otherwise provided by another enactment or by these Rules, a document which must be served before a hearing in the Court must be served at least seven days or, in the case of service by registered prepaid post, at least 21 days, before the date fixed for the hearing concerned.

Despite being an order for civil proceedings, provisions 3-19 of Order 41 also apply to criminal proceedings.

Kevin3

GM228 wrote: »

Despite being an order for civil proceedings, provisions 3-19 of Order 41 also apply to criminal proceedings.

How do those provisions also apply to criminal proceedings?

Looking at older incarnations of Order 10 there was the provision for the 7 day and 21 day stipulation. I wonder is it no longer the case?

GM228

Kevin3 wrote: »

How do those provisions also apply to criminal proceedings?

Looking at older incarnations of Order 10 there was the provision for the 7 day and 21 day stipulation. I wonder is it no longer the case?

Order 10 was amended in 2014, see provision 6.

http://www.courts.ie/rules.nsf/0c609d7abff72c1c80256d2b0045bb64/232ac051a1832bfe80257c900044b452?OpenDocument

Application of certain provisions of Order 41

The provisions of Order 41, rules 3 to 19 inclusive as regards mode of service, service on particular parties, proof of service and related matters, apply with the necessary modifications in criminal proceedings in the Court.

Kevin3

GM228 wrote: »

Order 10 was amended in 2014, see provision 6.

Thanks, missed that last bit. It's a bit strange to include criminal procedures under a civil proceedings heading. It's like they went out of their way when changing it to make it as obscure as possible.