The torment of EBI at farm level

alps

We are finding it increasingly difficult to understand EBI figures as they relate to cows on farm.

I have attached details here of a cow that we decided to breed to an AA last year due to a low EBI. Due to the low EBI, we are finding it increasingly difficult to sell stock from such an animal. Our fertility profile is such that we can have a significant amount of stock for sale, but real good dams like this are no longer acceptable.

The cow in question is a friesian, a Castledale Odessey (CDQ)×LBOxBWV...and produced €2640 of milk at our current coop prices. This against the base cow producing €1756 at the same prices, yet this cow is MINUS 38 for milk, and renders her totally unnactable as a breeding dam...

We have many more instances all through the herd such as this.

The details attached also contain her fertility figures, standing at €50...you can make your own decision on this one..

Is the British friesian being completely hammered by EBI.? Is Bill O Keeffe correct in his assertions of late, relating to incorrect ebi's and herd mentality based propaganda?

Anyway....shes in heat again today.....what will we bull her to?

Calfscour

alps wrote: »

We are finding it increasingly difficult to understand EBI figures as they relate to cows on farm.

I have attached details here of a cow that we decided to breed to an AA last year due to a low EBI. Due to the low EBI, we are finding it increasingly difficult to sell stock from such an animal. Our fertility profile is such that we can have a significant amount of stock for sale, but real good dams like this are no longer acceptable.

The cow in question is a friesian, a Castledale Odessey (CDQ)×LBOxBWV...and produced €2640 of milk at our current coop prices. This against the base cow producing €1756 at the same prices, yet this cow is MINUS 38 for milk, and renders her totally unnactable as a breeding dam...

We have many more instances all through the herd such as this.

The details attached also contain her fertility figures, standing at €50...you can make your own decision on this one..

Is the British friesian being completely hammered by EBI.? Is Bill O Keeffe correct in his assertions of late, relating to incorrect ebi's and herd mentality based propaganda?

Anyway....shes in heat again today.....what will we bull her to?

Ebi is a waste of time for some. Breed that cow to a good bull and show any prospective buyer her milk recording results they are the true figures not some computer program in the ICBF. Have cows in the minus here and would safely say they are my best cows. 600kgs of milk solids.
The controversy at the start of the yr has seriously eroded confidence in the ebi figures. Your not the only one in this position.

Buford T. Justice XIX

alps wrote: »

We are finding it increasingly difficult to understand EBI figures as they relate to cows on farm.

I have attached details here of a cow that we decided to breed to an AA last year due to a low EBI. Due to the low EBI, we are finding it increasingly difficult to sell stock from such an animal. Our fertility profile is such that we can have a significant amount of stock for sale, but real good dams like this are no longer acceptable.

The cow in question is a friesian, a Castledale Odessey (CDQ)×LBOxBWV...and produced €2640 of milk at our current coop prices. This against the base cow producing €1756 at the same prices, yet this cow is MINUS 38 for milk, and renders her totally unnactable as a breeding dam...

We have many more instances all through the herd such as this.

The details attached also contain her fertility figures, standing at €50...you can make your own decision on this one..

Is the British friesian being completely hammered by EBI.? Is Bill O Keeffe correct in his assertions of late, relating to incorrect ebi's and herd mentality based propaganda?

Anyway....shes in heat again today.....what will we bull her to?

Use the best bull you can.

There's a lot of talk about EBI but unless you have an animal genomically tested, the only figure that's accurate is the herd one. The individual animals figures, without being tested, is simply unreliable.

If she's doing the business in your herd in your system, i wouldn't worry about the EBI. If its a concern, get her genomically tested (around 30 euro iirc) and get a better idea of her EBI.

Wildsurfer

But aren't the majority of jersey and pure Fr bulls even in AI massively negative for milk and people still use them so why are you letting this bother you. You probably just need to find a client for your stock who is looking for and understands the ebi of pure Fr rather than selling at a mart against high kgs Holsteins. Are you a pedigree Fr breeder or do you cross with Hol Fr?

stretch film

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

Use the best bull you can.

There's a lot of talk about EBI but unless you have an animal genomically tested, the only figure that's accurate is the herd one. The individual animals figures, without being tested, is simply unreliable.

If she's doing the business in your herd in your system, i wouldn't worry about the EBI. If its a concern, get her genomically tested (around 30 euro iirc) and get a better idea of her EBI.

What more solid info can be required than 5 completed lactations ,6 breeding seasons and subsequent calvings to give a cow her accurate EBI no matter what breed.

Buford T. Justice XIX

stretch film wrote: »

What more solid info can be required than 5 completed lactations ,6 breeding seasons and subsequent calvings to give a cow her accurate EBI no matter what breed.

Are her feed levels the same as other cattle in the herd and other herds would be the first question and there are many more things that influence production besides feed.

Certain bulls would produce in certain herds. GMI was a disaster here but others would swear by him. My herd was MAU based, he was practically my stock bull for 3 years, but a neighbour couldn't get his daughters to do much above average in his herd.

Look, it's up to yourselves if you want to use it or not. My lowest EBI cow is14 years old but is a great animal and trouble free. I still breed from her as she has done the business here and I have no doubt will do it again for a few more years. Her EBI doesn't bother me even though she is the only negative EBI animal in the herd because at best it is an indication of her ability, not proof of it.

yewtree

alps wrote: »

We are finding it increasingly difficult to understand EBI figures as they relate to cows on farm.

I have attached details here of a cow that we decided to breed to an AA last year due to a low EBI. Due to the low EBI, we are finding it increasingly difficult to sell stock from such an animal. Our fertility profile is such that we can have a significant amount of stock for sale, but real good dams like this are no longer acceptable.

The cow in question is a friesian, a Castledale Odessey (CDQ)×LBOxBWV...and produced €2640 of milk at our current coop prices. This against the base cow producing €1756 at the same prices, yet this cow is MINUS 38 for milk, and renders her totally unnactable as a breeding dam...

We have many more instances all through the herd such as this.

The details attached also contain her fertility figures, standing at €50...you can make your own decision on this one..

Is the British friesian being completely hammered by EBI.? Is Bill O Keeffe correct in his assertions of late, relating to incorrect ebi's and herd mentality based propaganda?

Anyway....shes in heat again today.....what will we bull her to?

A really nice cow, excellent fertility performance. The whole herd here is negative for milk kg it wouldn't bother me. I think a 0 on milk has potential to produce 6000 litres and feeding rates will also affect this.
I wold go back with a bull with at least +.15% fat and protein the one knock on the cow is the solid % are on the low side

alps

yewtree wrote: »

A really nice cow, excellent fertility performance. The whole herd here is negative for milk kg it wouldn't bother me. I think a 0 on milk has potential to produce 6000 litres and feeding rates will also affect this.
I wold go back with a bull with at least +.15% fat and protein the one knock on the cow is the solid % are on the low side

Yep...solid percentage is on the low side with this lady, but should we be calculating the value in milk output...shouldnt we? We are after all paid for kg solids, not %solids. I'm surprised at how little impact the volume "C" reduction has in the overall monetary performance of the cow.

yewtree

alps wrote: »

Yep...solid percentage is on the low side with this lady, but should we be calculating the value in milk output...shouldnt we? We are after all paid for kg solids, not %solids. I'm surprised at how little impact the volume "C" reduction has in the overall monetary performance of the cow.

No question that she is a really productive cow, and kg milk solids is the important thing.my point is It's easier for a cow in terms of energy requirements to produce kg milk solids through higher % rather than litres

alps

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

Use the best bull you can.

There's a lot of talk about EBI but unless you have an animal genomically tested, the only figure that's accurate is the herd one. The individual animals figures, without being tested, is simply unreliable.

If she's doing the business in your herd in your system, i wouldn't worry about the EBI. If its a concern, get her genomically tested (around 30 euro iirc) and get a better idea of her EBI.

Of course I forgot to add in the €275 for the AA bull calf to the above figures😁

A genomic test would be interesting here, and must get that organised. However 5 lactations you would think should bring some accuracy or meeting of figures...

She's doing the business of course, but her ebi will effect her future performance. The EBI figure will effect our breeding decisions for her, the stock that will remain on and deliver for the farm...the stock to be sold from her....and all these decisions based on an formula that just does not seem to come across as consistent.

Look...the market gets what the market wants...looking like the AA straw again and a blood stained forehead from the head beating over this ebi...

yosemitesam1

It's probably wrong to assign an animal an ebi figure even if it is genomically tested as it can't really be close to 100% accurate when you think of the sheer amount of different combinations of genes you could come up with.
Might be wrong but I don't think other countries are leaving their indexes make up as big a component of the selection process

Buford T. Justice XIX

alps wrote: »

Of course I forgot to add in the €275 for the AA bull calf to the above figuresðŸ˜

A genomic test would be interesting here, and must get that organised. However 5 lactations you would think should bring some accuracy or meeting of figures...

She's doing the business of course, but her ebi will effect her future performance. The EBI figure will effect our breeding decisions for her, the stock that will remain on and deliver for the farm...the stock to be sold from her....and all these decisions based on an formula that just does not seem to come across as consistent.

Look...the market gets what the market wants...looking like the AA straw again and a blood stained forehead from the head beating over this ebi...

Wear a helmet, be grand.

pedigree 6

What does a dairy farmer need in a cow?

What do I (100% spring breeder) need in a cow?

I need a cow that can deliver E10 of milk a day at peak on 4kgs of meal E1.08 with the rest made up of grazed grass.
Calve in January or February every year without fail.
Last 6 + lactations.
Give a dairy bull calf that makes E160 + if it comes that way.
Make at least E900 when the time for her to go to the factory.

If EBI doesn't recognise that it's money from the cow that pays the bills there's something seriously wrong.

Now I accept management has everything to do with performance of your cows but it has anyway no matter the breed.

mf240

Four good feet and four good tits. I leave the figures to the accountants.

The part time boy

mf240 wrote: »

Four good feet and four good tits. I leave the figures to the accountants.

I apply the same logic if I paying for a ménage à trois

Signpost

Its a shame there isnt a scheme to make genomic tests affordable with such a focus on EBI's. Would love to do the herd and know exactly whats what but when not selling cattle can't justify the cost of the test, can tell from milk recording whose bringing home the bacon and who should be going between 2 slices of bread.

Buford T. Justice XIX

Signpost wrote: »

Its a shame there isnt a scheme to make genomic tests affordable with such a focus on EBI's. Would love to do the herd and know exactly whats what but when not selling cattle can't justify the cost of the test, can tell from milk recording whose bringing home the bacon and who should be going between 2 slices of bread.

It's around 20 euro a sample if you are doing all the animals of a particular year, iirc. Like all this years heifers would be 20 a head but only 5 or 6 of this years would be the full sum per head.

Signpost

Never done here even though fully AI bred herd, the cost to do all milking cows + 22 heifers + 22 calves makes it inhibitive and don't see any point in doing a few as would rather know the whole herd or none tbh

Buford T. Justice XIX

Signpost wrote: »

Never done here even though fully AI bred herd, the cost to do all milking cows + 22 heifers + 22 calves makes it inhibitive and don't see any point in doing a few as would rather know the whole herd or none tbh

If you're on herdplus, log onto ICBF and select the genomic option under the services tab and it will show you what animals would be eligible for testing, I am unable to test a a lot of mine due to crossbreeding over the years but you will get an idea how many can be tested and how much it costs from there.

It's 22 euro a head, not 20.

C4d78

I'm beginning to question ICBF and EBI myself.
I'd 100% blind faith in the system and have spent a lot on geonomic testing each years fr heifers.
Well this year I got my results of geonomics and noticed how every animal fell. This had nothing to do with new base reevaluation as they'd been born post this reevaluation.
Upon questioning it they reissued me with all new results for each animal and no explanation only a "computer glitch".
The new results bared no relation to the ones they'd given 2 days previous.
I've asked numerous times to speak to someone on the issue. No calls returned.
How could you have confidence in ICBF/EBI after this?
Just wondering if I'd accepted initial results would this "glitch" ever have been copped

kowtow

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

If you're on herdplus, log onto ICBF and select the genomic option under the services tab and it will show you what animals would be eligible for testing, I am unable to test a a lot of mine due to crossbreeding over the years but you will get an idea how many can be tested and how much it costs from there.

It's 22 euro a head, not 20.

I'm tempted to test mine but I still don't understand what I actually get in return for the test?? Do the previously non-EBI girls (typically because their sire is unrecorded) get an EBI figure for themselves?

In my case basically none of the herd has an EBI at all, except AI calves born this year who have approximately half the EBI of the AI sire.

Buford T. Justice XIX

kowtow wrote: »

I'm tempted to test mine but I still don't understand what I actually get in return for the test?? Do the previously non-EBI girls (typically because their sire is unrecorded) get an EBI figure for themselves?

In my case basically none of the herd has an EBI at all, except AI calves born this year who have approximately half the EBI of the AI sire.

It might be worthwhile for you to give them a call, kowtow. If one your animals has more than 6% of a different breed, they won't be able to give you an EBI on those. Any of the animals with AI records will get a figure and the sire will be confirmed. Apparently about 10% of sires are wrong so I was told. They might be able to sort out more if they have sires of any stock bought in but I wouldn't be sure about that, tbh.

I'll probably do two lots of heifers this year when I decide what ones I will be keeping for breeding.

Signpost

A bit like kowtow, what benefit is there actually in the end for the 22 per animal tested? So I could go back to 2014 born calves on ICBF and it gives me how many I need to test from each lot for the reduced price so I know that side of it

Considering I definitely won't be selling any FR heifers in the foreseeable future as its expansion on the cards here
Don't pedigree register or keep any bull calves
Have a very solid method of recording cows + no mixed up EBI's as calves get 1 tag at birth

What can they actually provide to me that justifies spending the money on taking the samples? I'm all for improvement and have no prob spending money on something if there is a gain, but this one just seems to be evading me on what I will actually benefit from the process.

kowtow

Signpost wrote: »

A bit like kowtow, what benefit is there actually in the end for the 22 per animal tested? So I could go back to 2014 born calves on ICBF and it gives me how many I need to test from each lot for the reduced price so I know that side of it

Considering I definitely won't be selling any FR heifers in the foreseeable future as its expansion on the cards here
Don't pedigree register or keep any bull calves
Have a very solid method of recording cows + no mixed up EBI's as calves get 1 tag at birth

What can they actually provide to me that justifies spending the money on taking the samples? I'm all for improvement and have no prob spending money on something if there is a gain, but this one just seems to be evading me on what I will actually benefit from the process.

In my case I only have a small number to do, and a fair few of them have unknown sires.. in some cases sires not intended for breeding!

So there is a case for filling in a few blanks I suppose, and perhaps culling a few less promising heifers a little earlier than I would otherwise. Not to mention that if you are as green as me you need all the help you can get when picking bulls from the AI line-up....

On herdplus they all show up as eligible for testing, so we might crack on with some if we get around to it this summer. Not sure I'd get any results back in time to be any use for this breeding season but we are well on the way already and won't be too stressed by that.

Timmaay

kowtow wrote: »

Not to mention that if you are as green as me you need all the help you can get when picking bulls from the AI line-up....

I really don't think having an indepth ebi report will help you hugely here, the variation in ebi figures on genomic ai sires is huge, you see sires with milk figures of +400kg go to zero over the course of 2years! If the cow tends to milk her back off and hard to get back in calf she needs a high fertility low milk straw, if she's good in fertility and bsc already, fire in a straw with decent kgs of fat+protein, it's largely a lucky dip from the 2 page list here of the pg top ebi catalogue otherwise. That's as much attention that I can be arsed giving it all anymore.

alps

EBI reports online now..

Can anyone remember a few years back that they used to do a column of your highest ebi cows and your lowest ebi cows and the totals if what the group turned over in milk to show to you that the high ebi group made more than the low EBI group..

It's not on the reports anymore


Is that since the equation stopped working??