Landlord witholding deposit

Acciaccatura

Hey guys, sorry if this is the wrong forum, feel free to move it if necessary.

I'm a final year student who moved into a landlord-occupied house back in November. There was no written contract or anything, but the landlord was briefly mentioned once or twice since then that he wanted 1 month's notice of leaving in order to get the full deposit back. We've had numerous conversations, most recently about 2 weeks ago, how I'd be moving out in May once college finished. I said I'd give him an exact date at a later stage, to which he replied "sure the room is yours until the 28th" (the date each month's rent was due).

He's known for months that I'd be gone sometime after the 4th of May and definitely by the 28th May at the latest, as I paid full rent for the month of May and am entitled to stay there til then. However, as I only told him yesterday 10th May that I'd be moving out the 26th, he claims he can't give me back the deposit as I didn't give a month's notice and only told him the date yesterday.

Neither of us have anything in writing about needing one month's notice or about me saying I was leaving in May, which I grant was a stupid move. Do I have any leg to stand on?

whomitconcerns

Your a lodger, you've no rights it's the same as any randomer owing you money. He can make it up as he goes along. Tell him he had no right to your money and hope for the best.

davindub

whomitconcerns wrote: »

Your a lodger, you've no rights it's the same as any randomer owing you money. He can make it up as he goes along. Tell him he had no right to your money and hope for the best.

The OP has plenty of rights.

OP, you can take a case with the small claims court.

But it would be fairly common to require a months notice and conversationally mentioning something is not the same as giving notice. It seem clear that there was an oral contract that 1 months notice would be required. That being said the LL cannot keep the entire deposit for the sake of it, it has to be if he cannot find a replacement before the 28th of May, he can deduct lost rent up until the date 1 month after notice was given.

But have a chat with the LL first, you can be helpful in finding a new tenant or very unhelpful, the LL cannot show the room without your permission and you can stay there until the 10th of June if that is what you have been obligated to pay for, so he can work out what works for him.

wordofwarning

davindub wrote: »

The OP has plenty of rights.

No OP does not. OP has about as much rights, as I do staying in a B&B or a Hotel. OP is not covered by tenant law at all.

davindub wrote: »

But have a chat with the LL first, you can be helpful in finding a new tenant or very unhelpful, the LL cannot show the room without your permission and you can stay there until the 10th of June if that is what you have been obligated to pay for, so he can work out what works for him.

OP is renting off the owner. He is not a landlord under the eyes of the law. I think you are confusing a tenancy agreement with a license agreement. OP has zero rights. The owner could pack up OP's property with little recourse tomorrow. AFAIK the owner does not need permission to show the room, as OP has basically no rights

OP you can go to the small claims court, as you are a lodger and not a tenant.

davindub

wordofwarning wrote: »

No OP does not. OP has about as much rights, as I do staying in a B&B or a Hotel. OP is not covered by tenant law at all.



OP is renting off the owner. He is not a landlord under the eyes of the law. I think you are confusing a tenancy agreement with a license agreement. OP has zero rights. The owner could pack up OP's property with little recourse tomorrow. AFAIK the owner does not need permission to show the room, as OP has basically no rights

OP you can go to the small claims court, as you are a lodger and not a tenant.

As with hotels, B&B's, he is covered by contract law, with relevant implied terms and practices as was pre-rtb act.

Any period he has paid for he has the right to possession of the property or damages to the amount of the unrealised paid rent.

If the LL packs up his stuff tomorrow without reasonable notice the OP can claim damages including cost of alternative accommodation in Hotels, etc.

The owner does need tenants permission to enter the private room covered by the agreement, no question of that unless access was granted by way of contract. You might be excused for emergency access, but not for reasons that lessens the licensee's use of the room.

Lack of legislation expressly stating what your rights are is not the same as having no rights.

the_syco

davindub wrote: »

If the LL packs up his stuff tomorrow without reasonable notice the OP can claim damages including cost of alternative accommodation in Hotels, etc.

Never have seen what "reasonable" equals to in the law.

davindub

the_syco wrote: »

davindub wrote: »

If the LL packs up his stuff tomorrow without reasonable notice the OP can claim damages including cost of alternative accommodation in Hotels, etc.

Never have seen what "reasonable" equals to in the law.

Not too sure what you mean?

davo10

davindub wrote: »

Not too sure what you mean?

It's subjective rather than quantifiable.

Really Interested

Acciaccatura wrote: »

Hey guys, sorry if this is the wrong forum, feel free to move it if necessary.

I'm a final year student who moved into a landlord-occupied house back in November. There was no written contract or anything, but the landlord was briefly mentioned once or twice since then that he wanted 1 month's notice of leaving in order to get the full deposit back. We've had numerous conversations, most recently about 2 weeks ago, how I'd be moving out in May once college finished. I said I'd give him an exact date at a later stage, to which he replied "sure the room is yours until the 28th" (the date each month's rent was due).

He's known for months that I'd be gone sometime after the 4th of May and definitely by the 28th May at the latest, as I paid full rent for the month of May and am entitled to stay there til then. However, as I only told him yesterday 10th May that I'd be moving out the 26th, he claims he can't give me back the deposit as I didn't give a month's notice and only told him the date yesterday.

Neither of us have anything in writing about needing one month's notice or about me saying I was leaving in May, which I grant was a stupid move. Do I have any leg to stand on?

If your College has a accommodations office give them a shout, or the Students Union welfare officer.

davo10

davindub wrote: »

The OP has plenty of rights.

OP, you can take a case with the small claims court.

Hmmmm.

http://www.courts.ie/courts.ie/library3.nsf/pagecurrent/A9C6E93D70127EF38025810D0034EAD6?opendocument&l=en&p=110

whomitconcerns

davindub wrote: »

wordofwarning wrote: »

No OP does not. OP has about as much rights, as I do staying in a B&B or a Hotel. OP is not covered by tenant law at all.



OP is renting off the owner. He is not a landlord under the eyes of the law. I think you are confusing a tenancy agreement with a license agreement. OP has zero rights. The owner could pack up OP's property with little recourse tomorrow. AFAIK the owner does not need permission to show the room, as OP has basically no rights

OP you can go to the small claims court, as you are a lodger and not a tenant.

If the LL packs up his stuff tomorrow without reasonable notice the OP can claim damages including cost of alternative accommodation in Hotels, etc.

Erm no he can't

callaway92

Can't really help on it, but my god, the landlord is acting like a complete bollox literally just for the sake of it.

Browney7

callaway92 wrote: »

Can't really help on it, but my god, the landlord is acting like a complete bollox literally just for the sake of it.

A special breed who'd take money off a final year student. Seeing as your just a licensee there's no real tenant relationship as such. You could get difficult <mod snip>

Acciaccatura

Thanks so much for the replies, everybody, really appreciate your help.

I'll be going up tomorrow to start clearing out some stuff, and I'll tackle him then. My main argument is that he knew I'd be moving out by the end of May months and months in advance; a fortnight ago we even talked about the other tenant moving into my room after I was gone. He should have had my room up on Daft since the 28th of April, and it's not my fault if he's forgotten to do that. However, both of us should have put agreements and stuff in writing.

I'll let you know how it goes tomorrow; I'm not one for confrontations so I hope I don't chicken out.

EDIT: I should add, he said he'd give me my deposit back if he has someone to fill the room by the 28th of May, but has yet to put the room up on Daft (which he told me he was going to do)

Browney7

Acciaccatura wrote: »

Thanks so much for the replies, everybody, really appreciate your help.

I'll be going up tomorrow to start clearing out some stuff, and I'll tackle him then. My main argument is that he knew I'd be moving out by the end of May months and months in advance; a fortnight ago we even talked about the other tenant moving into my room after I was gone. He should gave had my room up on Daft since the 28th of April, and it's not my fault if he's forgotten to do that. However, both of us should have put agreements and stuff in writing.

I'll let you know how it goes tomorrow; I'm not one for confrontations so I hope I don't chicken out.

Best of luck op. As people always say on this regarding renting a room, you can be asked to leave at short and very little notice so it's ridiculous of anyone availing of rent a room to insist on a month notice the other way. At the end of the day though, he has your money but it would be prohibitively costly from a time and money point of view to bring proceedings to get it back so in any case, even if you have two months notice there would be nothing stopping him keeping it.

frag420

When you speak with him next keep your phone in your pocket and record the conversation. It may not be usable in court but I am sure the PRTB or similar would like to hear it...

rawn

frag420 wrote:

When you speak with him next keep your phone in your pocket and record the conversation. It may not be usable in court but I am sure the PRTB or similar would like to hear it...

PRTB will have no interest in any part of it, as OP is not a tenant.

davindub

davo10 wrote: »

It's subjective rather than quantifiable.

Pretty much sums up all the legal tests I've ever encountered.

davo10 wrote: »

Hmmmm.

http://www.courts.ie/courts.ie/library3.nsf/pagecurrent/A9C6E93D70127EF38025810D0034EAD6?opendocument&l=en&p=110

It does actually state property where landlord resides there as well, must have been getting a lot of queries at some stage.

davindub

whomitconcerns wrote: »

Erm no he can't

Because?

TBH I'll save you the trouble it's not something that can be googled unless know what to look for. But google "breach of contract damages causation".

whomitconcerns

davindub wrote: »

whomitconcerns wrote: »

Erm no he can't

Because?

TBH I'll save you the trouble it's not something that can be googled unless know what to look for. But google "breach of contract damages causation".

I would imagine the way the law works would be that if you are a guest (paying our not) in someone's house there is a legitimate expectation that you are not there indefinitely and thus you could be removed at any time with 'reasonable notice' and that's the but that's open to interpretation

wordofwarning

davindub wrote: »

Because?

TBH I'll save you the trouble it's not something that can be googled unless know what to look for. But google "breach of contract damages causation".

I know boards is not for legal discussions. But the RTB makes it pretty clear, as does the law that licensee holders have little or no rights. The RTB explicitly state on their site, that licensee holders don't have exclusive possession and in the eyes of the law are in the same category of hotel guests

https://www.rtb.ie/media-research/publications/leases-and-licences

Citizen info states your right to reside is at the owner's discretion.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/sharing_accommodation_with_your_landlord.html

I found it a stretch that "breach of contract damages causation", when the laws basically sees you as having limited rights in the beginning.

davindub

All the RTB really tries to state is that residential lettings where the LL resides are excluded from the Act. It is not within their experience to declare what rights someone has outside of that specific legislation.

Notice can be given at any time, if the contract allows for this, but also long contracts would not be enforceable on either party in this kind of contract anyway, the principles of contract law are far too numerous to explain and even then you can never be certain ahead of a case, but you can take reasonable notice to be the frequency of the payment as a guide.

That being said, if you have someone not paying rent, violent behaviour etc, it probably is acceptable to remove straight away. But someone who has paid rent, not caused major issues and had no where to go except a close by hotel?

Acciaccatura

Hey guys, thought I'd give he the update:

Broached the subject this evening about 30 mins ago, it didn't go well, he's insisting I didn't give him notice of a date while simultaneously my denying he knew I'd be gone by the 28th (like what?). He then ended up walking out on me and slamming the door. I took your advice and have the whole conversation recorded. He says he'll give me my deposit if he finds someone to fill the room by the 28th of May, however, I can still see no sign of it advertised on Daft.

I'm almost done cleaning the room and am seriously considering moving out tonight as my dad is coming with the car to pick up stuff anyway. Would this jeopardise my deposit, do ye reckon?

davindub

davindub wrote: »

As with hotels, B&B's, he is covered by contract law, with relevant implied terms and practices as was pre-rtb act.

Any period he has paid for he has the right to possession of the property or damages to the amount of the unrealised paid rent.

If the LL packs up his stuff tomorrow without reasonable notice the OP can claim damages including cost of alternative accommodation in Hotels, etc.

The owner does need tenants permission to enter the private room covered by the agreement, no question of that unless access was granted by way of contract. You might be excused for emergency access, but not for reasons that lessens the licensee's use of the room.

Lack of legislation expressly stating what your rights are is not the same as having no rights.

The owner does not need permission to enter the room, the licensee is a guest and has no right to exclusive use of the room.

frag420 wrote: »

When you speak with him next keep your phone in your pocket and record the conversation. It may not be usable in court but I am sure the PRTB or similar would like to hear it...

You might as well tell the op to make a complaint to the taxi regulator as they will have the same interest in it as the RTB who deal with tenancies not guests.

Browney7

Acciaccatura wrote: »

Hey guys, thought I'd give he the update:

Broached the subject this evening about 30 mins ago, it didn't go well, he's insisting I didn't give him notice of a date while simultaneously my denying he knew I'd be gone by the 28th (like what?). He then ended up walking out on me and slamming the door. I took your advice and have the whole conversation recorded. He says he'll give me my deposit if he finds someone to fill the room by the 28th of May, however, I can still see no sign of it advertised on Daft.

I'm almost done cleaning the room and am seriously considering moving out tonight as my dad is coming with the car to pick up stuff anyway. Would this jeopardise my deposit, do ye reckon?

Sure would. Out of sight out of mind. I'd be staying in the room being as difficult as possible to be honest.

wordofwarning

Acciaccatura wrote: »

Hey guys, thought I'd give he the update:

Broached the subject this evening about 30 mins ago, it didn't go well, he's insisting I didn't give him notice of a date while simultaneously my denying he knew I'd be gone by the 28th (like what?). He then ended up walking out on me and slamming the door. I took your advice and have the whole conversation recorded. He says he'll give me my deposit if he finds someone to fill the room by the 28th of May, however, I can still see no sign of it advertised on Daft.

I'm almost done cleaning the room and am seriously considering moving out tonight as my dad is coming with the car to pick up stuff anyway. Would this jeopardise my deposit, do ye reckon?

I would make sure you take a ton of photos of the room to show it is clean, free of rubbish etc. When you move out make sure you email/text that you have returned the keys and they are in x place.

I would email/text him on Monday if he has the room advertised. You need to create a paper trail.

davindub

Brayden Nervous Archery wrote: »

The owner does not need permission to enter the room, the licensee is a guest and has no right to exclusive use of the room.

Feel free to try it yourself.

davindub

davindub wrote: »

Brayden Nervous Archery wrote: »

The owner does not need permission to enter the room, the licensee is a guest and has no right to exclusive use of the room.

Feel free to try it yourself.

Show me once piece of evidence supporting your position. A licensee is no different to having a friend stay over for the weekend. They have no say whatsoever on if the owner enters or not. They have no rights simple as that.

In a hotel or B&B it's no different the room can be entered at anytime for any reason.

davindub

Brayden Nervous Archery wrote: »

Show me once piece of evidence supporting your position. A licensee is no different to having a friend stay over for the weekend. They have no say whatsoever on if the owner enters or not. They have no rights simple as that.

In a hotel or B&B it's no different the room can be entered at anytime for any reason.

Can you not go buy some books on the subjects to understand it yourself better?

I really couldn't care less what madness you believe, but if you ever have a court date let me know, it would be hilarious.

gizmo81

A little tip when vacating a room or property is to get the days paper, include it in any photo especially one close up of the date. A video even.

Murrisk

Pretty shity for the owner to not return at least some if not ALL of the deposit. The minimal notice thing should work both ways.

Legally there is nothing the OP can do. So, with nothing to lose, he/she should do what they can to get it back. If appealing to the landlord's sense of decency doesn't work, the OP should lay a guilt trip on the landlord, subtly imply that they are basically robbing the OP of money, whatever they need to do. I'd at least try to leave that house with the landlord feeling that the money they have basically pilfered wasn't worth the hassle. This might seem harsh, but the owner is being an absolute shyster and deserves to be treated as one.

davindub

davindub wrote: »

Brayden Nervous Archery wrote: »

Show me once piece of evidence supporting your position. A licensee is no different to having a friend stay over for the weekend. They have no say whatsoever on if the owner enters or not. They have no rights simple as that.

In a hotel or B&B it's no different the room can be entered at anytime for any reason.

Can you not go buy some books on the subjects to understand it yourself better?

I really couldn't care less what madness you believe, but if you ever have a court date let me know, it would be hilarious.

Ha ha, you are talking absolute gutter and would want to invest in these books you are talking about yourself as I'm the one who actually knows how it works.

athtrasna

Nox001 and Davindub take it to pm. You are both around the forum long enough to know that this sort of sniping and points scoring to and fro is not acceptable.

Mod

Acciaccatura

So, I moved out of the house yesterday, after the landlord walked out on me. He had a guest over later that evening while I was waiting for my dad to come pick me and my stuff up, and went to return the key. He seemed a bit taken aback that I was leaving now rather than the date I'd given him, and then proceeded to have another quite heated conversation with me (in front of his guest, with whom he'd obviously told her about the situation as she was all set to jump in and have a go at me to support him). He basically made out that I'd briefly mentioned my leaving in May way back when I first moved in and ignored any of the valid points I made - I hardly got a word in edgeways anyway from all his ranting and raving. He claimed that everyone he's discussed this with is on his side and that his conscience is clear. He said he'll get in contact with me if he fills the room by the 28th to get me the deposit back. I could see that this argument was going nowhere and that my father was sitting in the car just wanting to go home for dinner after a long day at work, so I, being pretty peed off at being walked out on earlier and then humiliated in front of his friend, said a curt goodbye and slammed the door. 
I should note that he has the room up on rent.ie, Daft and Facebook now, so we'll see how this turns out. We're going to ask Threshold.ie for advice first, to see if it would be worth going to the small claims court. I'll be keeping an eye on the advert on Daft and Rent to see if it gets taken down before the 28th of May, and will contact him then to see if he holds up his end of the deal.

Thanks so much for all your help and advice, everyone. The moral of the story is, no matter how casual and friendly you are with your landlord, do things properly and create a paper trail from day one; submit everything in writing.

Browney7

Acciaccatura wrote: »

So, I moved out of the house yesterday, after the landlord walked out on me. He had a guest over later that evening while I was waiting for my dad to come pick me and my stuff up, and went to return the key. He seemed a bit taken aback that I was leaving now rather than the date I'd given him, and then proceeded to have another quite heated conversation with me (in front of his guest, with whom he'd obviously told her about the situation as she was all set to jump in and have a go at me to support him). He basically made out that I'd briefly mentioned my leaving in May way back when I first moved in and ignored any of the valid points I made - I hardly got a word in edgeways anyway from all his ranting and raving. He claimed that everyone he's discussed this with is on his side and that his conscience is clear. He said he'll get in contact with me if he fills the room by the 28th to get me the deposit back. I could see that this argument was going nowhere and that my father was sitting in the car just wanting to go home for dinner after a long day at work, so I, being pretty peed off at being walked out on earlier and then humiliated in front of his friend, said a curt goodbye and slammed the door. 
I should note that he has the room up on rent.ie, Daft and Facebook now, so we'll see how this turns out. We're going to ask Threshold.ie for advice first, to see if it would be worth going to the small claims court. I'll be keeping an eye on the advert on Daft and Rent to see if it gets taken down before the 28th of May, and will contact him then to see if he holds up his end of the deal.

Thanks so much for all your help and advice, everyone. The moral of the story is, no matter how casual and friendly you are with your landlord, do things properly and create a paper trail from day one; submit everything in writing.

Lesson being landlords and property owners are usually grand until you want to leave.

You won't get your deposit back now OP now that you've left. You should have told his friend where to go aswell. Next time you leave a place where you are renting a room negotiate to use the deposit as last month's rent because when you are a licensee you rely on his goodwill to give your money back. At least with a tenancy you have the RTB to use