'Free' pre-school years

jay0109

Just looking into the details for 1 of my kids around the 2 years free school and it turns out they won't get 2 years and it's not 'free'!

This may have been thrashed out to death here in the past but it's caught me on the hop.

She was born in September 14 and so isn't eligible to start the free scheme until Jan 18. So it's not 2 school years she'll get, it's 1.5 school years.
So we talked to a few local pre-schools (Sth Dub) about signing her up and they all have said she must start in Sept 17 or she won't get a place in Jan 18. That means 4 months (sept-Dec) of full fees at an average of €350 per month = €1,400 to in effect get her 0.5 school year.
+ they all said they want a top up as the Govt isn't giving enough funding for the scheme so that's another €150 per month from Jan to June = €900.
So a total of €2,300 for the 1st year of the free scheme!!!

I haven't budgeted for this and with a full time childminder in place, I don't think we can afford this extra hit. Might as well leave her at home for the 1st year of the scheme with the childminder even though I think the exposure to other kids would be good for her.

How has there not being more noise about this 'free' scheme and the costs that come with it? I haven't seen anything in the papers or heard anyone in the media talking about it.
This has really caught me by surprise :mad:

shesty

My first is a June 14 baby, so she will be starting Sept 17 (sorry just to give you background).

I do get where you're coming from, but your extra preschool top-up seems terribly expensive!!!Ours is 65eur a month top-up, and I am very satisfied that it is a very good pre-school.Unfortunately it may just be due to the area you live in.

I'm no expert on it but I believe there's supposed to be an intake into schools in sept, jan and april of each year.Which in theory suits kids born at all times of the year.But (anecdotally) what I hear in practice is that most schools fill up in the Sept take up so they don't actually have the space to take in a January or April intake.Which is obviously then resulting in parents paying for the extra months just to ensure their child has a place for the point in the year when they would get the 'free' schooling.That's a practical issue really and I'm not sure there's much of a solution to it.

Myself, I'm of the opinion that nothing is perfect but right now this is the system that's there to work with.There's nothing wrong with leaving your child another year, or maybe looking round for a preschool that would have space for the January intake (and possibly costs less).Alternatively you could ask could she just do one or two days of the week while you pay the full cost and then either switch to a full week once her free year kicks in, or only switch to a full week in her second year, when she's fully covered?It would minimise the cost,

I don't really think it's going to change much soon but maybe others here have better opinions??

Our second is an April baby btw, so we won't have it straightforward second time round.Turns out in practice it seems to work best for summer babies.

bp

There is no top up in my pre school - Dublin. Is it linked to a crèche/ after school? From personal observation these seems to look for the top up

Digs

Your top up seems excessive alright. My daughter is an April baby so she luckily enough was eligible to start Sept 16 and had no problem getting a place. She could take up the second year but will be starting primary school this sept so as it works out she will only avail of one year. Our second is a June baby though so she mightn't have it so straight forward with start dates etc it's seems to be like so many other things in life, your luck comes down to the month you're born.

Our top up is €40 a month. This is the knocklyon area of Dublin.

ETA: I just checked the online eligibility calculator and both girls are eligible to take up a place in their respective Septembers so we were lucky on both counts.

meeeeh

No top ups where we are.

D0NNELLY

Is the top up legal? Never heard of it before..

Digs

D0NNELLY wrote: »

Is the top up legal? Never heard of it before..

Yes it's legal. It's just down to the discretion of the provider as to whether they do or don't charge one and how much. Our top up covers, parties, treats, adding to the dress up box etc
I don't question it as she's happy out there and for €40 a month I'm delighted with how well she's doing.

Dravokivich

I'm a little bit confused now. ye are talking about the ECCE scheme or something else? ECCE has just become available for my son, but it's only subsiding 64.50 a week on creche/montessori fees.

shesty

Ditto, ours is 65eur a month and it's mainly to cover some extra support to reduce the teacher-child ratio way down...allowing them to do extra activities like more baking and cooking, and arts and crafts, dress up, gardening etc.For what they are offering I am happy to pay that.

North Dublin location btw.

ECCE scheme is what I'm talking about.

jay0109

Yes, the ECCE scheme is what I'm referring to.

1 of the 3 places we contacted locally is tied into a school. The other 2 are standalone pre-schools.
They all have the same top-up fee...maybe the Competition Authority should look into this one!

Our other kids who only got 1 free year each (thats all that was in at the time) had to pay no top up fee.

It's all a rip off. I'm going to give an ear full to a few local TD's/Councillors on this.

Moonbeam

https://www.dcya.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=1143 - There is a calculator and other info there.

They can not charge you for the ECCE scheme,the extras have to be optional.

I paid for 1 year for all of mine and they did a free year but the youngest will now qualify for her 2nd and 3rd year free.

As far as keeping places for january goes, you can not blame the play school owners for wanting to fill places so they get paid and are not loosing money.

ectoraige

No scheme is perfect. Our daughter missed out on the whole scheme by a single day. She was born on July 1st, and the cut-off for eligibility at the time was June 30th so she could not start in September when she was three. January and April enrolment weren't part of the scheme so her next opportunity was the following September when she was four. However by then she was ready to begin school.

If we had been operating under the scheme you are in she would have had the full year when she was three, and been eligible for another year aged four if we wanted. Our youngest is doing his ECCE year at the moment, but if he had been born a little bit later would have been eligible to do another year next year.

It's unfortunate that there aren't enough creches in your area, ours are able to cater for just the 9-12 classes, as well as provide full day coverage for other students. They would have had no problem taking children in January or April, but there isn't the same population pressure here.

shesty

jay0109 wrote: »

Yes, the ECCE scheme is what I'm referring to.

1 of the 3 places we contacted locally is tied into a school. The other 2 are standalone pre-schools.
They all have the same top-up fee...maybe the Competition Authority should look into this one!

Our other kids who only got 1 free year each (thats all that was in at the time) had to pay no top up fee.

It's all a rip off. I'm going to give an ear full to a few local TD's/Councillors on this.

That does sound strange.There's several local preschools in our area and top ups either don't exist or differ from school to school.

Why don't parents who are experiencing this not write to the providers quoting the relevant provision which state that top up fees can not be charged then write to the the local City/County Childcare Committee, the Department of Children and Youth Affairs about the issue.

The providers are only doing this because they are not challenged about it.

jay0109

Ok, spoke to DCC today. The lady there confirmed that once your child is only availing of the 3 hours of ECCE scheme per day and nothing extra (eg. lunch, extra time etc.) then there should be no extra charges for the parents.
She said if I wish to pass on the information of the montessori schools that are charging €125 then I can pass it to her and she will pass it to Phobail who look after the ECCE scheme.

Digs

jay0109 wrote: »

Ok, spoke to DCC today. The lady there confirmed that once your child is only availing of the 3 hours of ECCE scheme per day and nothing extra (eg. lunch, extra time etc.) then there should be no extra charges for the parents.
She said if I wish to pass on the information of the montessori schools that are charging €125 then I can pass it to her and she will pass it to Phobail who look after the ECCE scheme.

Interesting! Did she elaborate on "extra". As in is the word only limited to extra time etc
Our place says the €40 is for extras such as treats, games etc

jay0109

I think the places charging these 'extras' are doing so under the guise of treats,games etc.
But to me it's simple...if the child is there only for the 3 hours paid for by the taxpayer, then there should be no other costs involved.

ectoraige

Just for general information, all the optional fees that are charged must be approved by the local County Childcare Committee, and must be included in the fees information letter supplied by the creche. You can contact your local CCC if you've concerns about the fees.

We had queried this with the department initially when the preschool we use started charging for a workbook which initially we understood to be the one provided under the scheme. They advised us to speak to the CCC but in the end it turned out to be an additional workbook, and was indeed optional.

shesty

Our preschool does four hour sessions.I'd imagine that's covered by the topup cost for us.We can pay extra again for five hour sessions but these are optional.

John Mason

The top ups are optional. they CANNOT CHARGE you. if they are telling you it is compulsory they are in breach of their contract.

Please report them immediately to your local Childcare Committee and request an immediate inspection by Pobal. the compliance visit conclude in June, so DO IT NOW
e
Contact details for the CCC's half way down this page https://www.pobal.ie/FundingProgrammes/EarlyEducationandChildcare/Pages/CCCs.aspx

In relation to the having to start in September, you cannot expect the service to hold an empty space (unpaid from September to January. this is financial suicide.

Finally, i have an April baby and he will be getting his full 2 years. your child is entitled to 2 years, if you choose to send your child to school before she has received the full 2 years, that is your decision

Millem

Sept-dec baby are the only ones who don't get the 2 years. They get jan-June and sept-June.
If you delay starting school you will have to pay for extra year yourself.
I have a January baby....he gets the most April-June and then 2 full years free.
We are due our next baby in early September.

John Mason

No they are not. my april baby is getting his full 2 years

Millem

John Mason wrote: »

No they are not. my april baby is getting his full 2 years

??
Yes April-aug babies get two years. The OP's child only gets jan-June and sept-june.
The length of free time depends on child's birthday....not all children will get 2 years free.

jay0109

John Mason wrote: »

Finally, i have an April baby and he will be getting his full 2 years. your child is entitled to 2 years, if you choose to send your child to school before she has received the full 2 years, that is your decision

If we went out of our way to get the full 2 years, our kid would be nearly 6 by the time they start school. So that would be cutting off our nose to spite our face.

Yes I agree that Pre-Schools need to fill places from Sept as the scheme is in line with the school year. My gripe is with the Govt who IMO presented this in a very different light at its inception and have clearly underfunded the scheme

Millem

jay0109 wrote: »

If we went out of our way to get the full 2 years, our kid would be nearly 6 by the time they start school. So that would be cutting off our nose to spite our face.

Yes I agree that Pre-Schools need to fill places from Sept as the scheme is in line with the school year. My gripe is with the Govt who IMO presented this in a very different light at its inception and have clearly underfunded the scheme

No you can't get another free year your child will be too old by the june.


If for some reason you wanted to delay your child starting school you would have to pay.

I will try and find the link on rules regarding age by June of ECCe.

"From September 2016, children will be able to start ECCE when they reach 3 years of age and continue until they transfer to primary school (provided that they are not older than 5 years and 6 months at the end of the pre-school year). This is an increase in the number of weeks than previously available on the ECCE scheme. Children will be able to enroll in pre-school at 3 different points (September, January and April) in the school year in order to access the scheme. The school year is normally from September to June."

jay0109

Yes, your right. Confused myself there
http://aim.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Your-childs-eligibility-for-the-ECCE-programme.pdf

Millem

jay0109 wrote: »

Yes, your right. Confused myself there
http://aim.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Your-childs-eligibility-for-the-ECCE-programme.pdf

Yes it's very unfair on sept-dec babies

ectoraige

Millem wrote: »

Yes it's very unfair on sept-dec babies

Well, life isn't fair

John Mason

woops, just realised my information is not in the public domain yet.

keep an eye here

http://affordablechildcare.ie/

pwurple

Millem wrote: »

Yes it's very unfair on sept-dec babies

It's unfair all around. Birthday lottery.

Most ridiculous scheme to administer as well, creates headaches for providers, parents and everyone else involved.

Why they couldn't keep it simple is beyond me.

uck51js9zml2yt

John Mason wrote: »

woops, just realised my information is not in the public domain yet.

keep an eye here

http://affordablechildcare.ie/

All the details are under "i am a childcare provider" link:)

FMLUCAS

Hi dear.

Would be with you making noise.

Our daughter turned 3 in March 2017. She was born 21st March 2014 which would make her eligible for the scheme according to the calculator.



The creche/Montessori Kids where she has been attending for about 2 years is said to have to have ECCE scheme, however we haven't been approached or invited to pay the adjusted lesser fees. Was briefly said they wouldn't register her until September's.

Would like to know if this is a common practice or should I seek legal advice. I am fuming thinking they are perhaps fooling us over the fact we are foreign parents? My understanding we should jave payed the discounted price for April/May considering the 3 hours per day/ 5 days a week since April for 13 weeks thru June.


F.M Lucas

Moonbeam

Sept,January and April are the registration months so they should be able to register her in April.
My youngest is an April baby so I need to wait until Sept.

I wouldn't be seeking legal advice but you could print this - http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/education/pre_school_education_and_childcare/early_childhood_care_and_education_scheme.html

Is it a creche as in will she attend through the summer?

Samsgirl

My daughter was born on 31/12/12 and misses out on a second ECCE year by appprox 7 hours.

She will be starting Junior infants in Sept aged 4.8 years. She could have benefited with a second pre school year as she has mild dyspraxia.

Big Bag of Chips

FMLUCAS wrote: »

Our daughter turned 3 in March 2017. She was born 21st March 2014 which would make her eligible for the scheme according to the calculator.

Our daughter turned 3 on 21st March and is in her free ECCE place since 3rd April.

Yes, you are being charged incorrectly. Did you ask for your daughter to be registered to the ECCE scheme? With a lot of children on their books they might expect the parents to approach them when their child is eligible.

Also, the ECCE scheme ends on the 16th June, and I'm not sure if the two weeks at Easter are included. Our playschool was closed so wasn't applicable. The most you are entitled to is 11 weeks, the least is 9.

lazygal

pwurple wrote: »

It's unfair all around. Birthday lottery.

Most ridiculous scheme to administer as well, creates headaches for providers, parents and everyone else involved.

Why they couldn't keep it simple is beyond me.

It is simple, a couple of forms for parents to sign and the admin for providers is all online. It was easy to check the eligibility criteria online.
I didn't find it any hassle at all. I have a September child, the scheme has to cut off somewhere.

Moonbeam

Samsgirl wrote: »

My daughter was born on 31/12/12 and misses out on a second ECCE year by appprox 7 hours.

She will be starting Junior infants in Sept aged 4.8 years. She could have benefited with a second pre school year as she has mild dyspraxia.

You can appeal it for a child that has additional educational needs that would benefit.
I have a 1st of Jan daughter and I am January child and I remember we had alot of advantages over kids a few days younger. GAA especially.

amor3

My daughter is a march baby. 5/3/14. She started her ecce after the Easter holidays. I pay 10 euro a week top up. Her hours are 9.00- 12.30 so the top up is for the extra hours.

jay0109

amor3 wrote: »

My daughter is a march baby. 5/3/14. She started her ecce after the Easter holidays. I pay 10 euro a week top up. Her hours are 9.00- 12.30 so the top up is for the extra hours.

€10 for 2.5hrs is very reasonable. Nothing wrong with that.
It's the boyo's charging €100 or so a month for 'arts and crafts materials' that need to be cracked down on