hosting and breakfast

mille100piedi

we are using several website for our hosting and one of tthem force us to serve breakfast to our guests. We don't have a licence to do so and we don't want to take any risk, but if we don't do so they will remove our listing.
Is this legal?

mille100piedi

mille100piedi wrote: »

we are using several website for our hosting and one of tthem force us to serve breakfast to our guests. We don't have a licence to do so and we don't want to take any risk, but if we don't do so they will remove our listing.
Is this legal?

Just don't use that website?

nhunter100

mille100piedi wrote:

we are using several website for our hosting and one of tthem force us to serve breakfast to our guests. We don't have a licence to do so and we don't want to take any risk, but if we don't do so they will remove our listing. Is this legal?

I assume you signed up willing to the site that required you to provide breakfast. It's their T&C's if you are not willing to agree to them delist . Simple

mille100piedi

I am just asking if it is legal forcing the host to serve breakfast. In my country you can't, you need a licence. If some guests get food poisoned or an allergic reaction it is a serious matter.
I hope an expert in the matter will be able to answer my question

nhunter100

mille100piedi wrote:

I am just asking if it is legal forcing the host to serve breakfast. In my country you can't, you need a licence. If some guests get food poisoned or an allergic reaction it is a serious matter. I hope an expert in the matter will be able to answer my question

Why did you sign up to a Website when you are unable to honour some of the expectations of said Website . You are breaking their rules.

Turtle_

mille100piedi wrote: »

I am just asking if it is legal forcing the host to serve breakfast. In my country you can't, you need a licence. If some guests get food poisoned or an allergic reaction it is a serious matter.
I hope an expert in the matter will be able to answer my question

what country are you in?

If it falls within the definition of providing breakfast, why not provide milk, cereal, bread, condiments, ham, tomatoes and cheese All commercially packaged, unopened and within the use by date? Or does it have to be cooked?

If you're not comfortable, don't use that site. (It's really that simple)

Also, you're not going to get expert advice for free on an Internet forum.

mille100piedi

Turtle_ wrote: »

what country are you in?

If it falls within the definition of providing breakfast, why not provide milk, cereal, bread, condiments, ham, tomatoes and cheese All commercially packaged, unopened and within the use by date? Or does it have to be cooked?

If you're not comfortable, don't use that site. (It's really that simple)

Also, you're not going to get expert advice for free on an Internet forum.

thanks, I am going to contact a solicitor with expertise in food safety and I will get all the answers to my questions.
In the past boards.ie has been very useful and I had free reliable information, at the moment it is not the case of this post.

Turtle_

mille100piedi wrote: »

thanks, I am going to contact a solicitor with expertise in food safety and I will get all the answers to my questions.
In the past boards.ie has been very useful and I had free reliable information, at the moment it is not the case of this post.

It's against boards rules to provide legal advice, which is what you're asking for

athtrasna

This is an Irish site. No licences are needed here to serve breakfast. If you're not in Ireland there is no point asking here as to what night be legal in another country. Try a site based in the relevant country.

Scraggs

mille100piedi wrote: »

thanks, I am going to contact a solicitor with expertise in food safety and I will get all the answers to my questions.
In the past boards.ie has been very useful and I had free reliable information, at the moment it is not the case of this post.

Don't bother with a solicitor. Contact the HSE or the Food Safety Authority for advice. Advice you receive will depend on what you mean by hosting whether it's a B+B type setup, hostel, taking in summer students or Airbnb etc. Nobody here can advise as we don't have this information and also it's not appropriate.

Gumbo

mille100piedi wrote: »

I am just asking if it is legal forcing the host to serve breakfast. In my country you can't, you need a licence. If some guests get food poisoned or an allergic reaction it is a serious matter.
I hope an expert in the matter will be able to answer my question

If someone falls down your stairs, it's a serious matter. Are you insured for this?

mille100piedi

kceire wrote: »

If someone falls down your stairs, it's a serious matter. Are you insured for this?

Of course I am, but this was not my question

whoopsadoodles

They are not forcing you to serve breakfast.

They are asking you to agree to their terms and conditions in order to use their site. You can choose not to do so, and to take your business elsewhere and they can choose not to do business with those who do not accept their terms and conditions.

Dial Hard

mille100piedi wrote:

Of course I am, but this was not my question

It would really help if you'd comfirm whether or not you're in Ireland.

Wesser

If you have a contract with the website you have to honour the contract. It is the law that you have to honour the contract, not that you have to serve breakfast.

mille100piedi

Dial Hard wrote: »

It would really help if you'd comfirm whether or not you're in Ireland.

I am hosting in my own property in Ireland

mille100piedi

Wesser wrote: »

If you have a contract with the website you have to honour the contract. It is the law that you have to honour the contract, not that you have to serve breakfast.

Airbnb and similar are in a grey area and we all know that there are a lot for problem converting private property in illegal hotel or B&B
I am happy about the income I am receiving as a host but I think it is time to make rules more clear

mille100piedi

mille100piedi wrote: »

I am hosting in my own property in Ireland

Then as pointed out earlier in the thread (twice) you don't need a licence to serve breakfast as this is not a requirement in Ireland. Why do you think that a licence is required?

As others have said either provide a breakfast (which you can legally do) or don't use that particular website it's not like there is only one website you advertise on.

mille100piedi

Ezekiel Gray Cheese wrote: »

Then as pointed out earlier in the thread (twice) you don't need a licence to serve breakfast as this is not a requirement in Ireland. Why do you think that a licence is required?

As others have said either provide a breakfast (which you can legally do) or don't use that particular website it's not like there is only one website you advertise on.

can you please post a link where I can read more about the fact that I can serve breakfast without breaking the law?
I was thinking you need a licence because if you don't know how to handle food people can get food poison or allergy reaction, they can even die.
I personally don't trust a stranger cooking for me, if it is not a friend or a restaurant.

mille100piedi

Ezekiel Gray Cheese wrote: »

Then as pointed out earlier in the thread (twice) you don't need a licence to serve breakfast as this is not a requirement in Ireland. Why do you think that a licence is required?

As others have said either provide a breakfast (which you can legally do) or don't use that particular website it's not like there is only one website you advertise on.

this is what you need when you open a B&B
http://www.pointofsinglecontact.ie/Browse-by-Sector/Travel-and-Tourism/Bed-and-Breakfasts.html
I don't understand why I should serve breakfast to my guesst and skip all the regulation that every B&B should follow.
Why my B&B should be treated different?
please post me a link where it is confirmed that I can open an illegal B&B

Claw Hammer

There is a requirement for listing by some referral agents that a breakfast is served. There is no legal requirement to serve breakfast when accommodating an overnight guest. Up to 4 rooms in a house can be used for B & B without planning permission or a requirement to have a licence to serve food. However, any agent who chooses to market a B & B or any other accommodation is free to set whatever conditions it likes. It could insist on all en-suites, 6 foot beds or a gym if it liked. It is a matter for providers to decide if they are willing to abide by such conditions.

mille100piedi

Claw Hammer wrote: »

There is a requirement for listing by some referral agents that a breakfast is served. There is no legal requirement to serve breakfast when accommodating an overnight guest. Up to 4 rooms in a house can be used for B & B without planning permission or a requirement to have a licence to serve food. However, any agent who chooses to market a B & B or any other accommodation is free to set whatever conditions it likes. It could insist on all en-suites, 6 foot beds or a gym if it liked. It is a matter for providers to decide if they are willing to abide by such conditions.

thank you, can you provide a link were I can read about this, I really appreciate

lfc200

mille100piedi wrote: »

thank you, can you provide a link were I can read about this, I really appreciate

What link do you want? You've said the website that you're using clearly says that breakfast must be served. If you don't want to serve breakfast don't use the website. Simple.
If you want to use the website then serve breakfast, as others have said put out a bowl of fruit and boxed cereals and some yoghurts. You don't have to cook anything.

mille100piedi

mille100piedi wrote: »

can you please post a link where I can read more about the fact that I can serve breakfast without breaking the law?
I was thinking you need a licence because if you don't know how to handle food people can get food poison or allergy reaction, they can even die.
I personally don't trust a stranger cooking for me, if it is not a friend or a restaurant.

Can you provide a link that says you need a licence to serve breakfast to guests?

Also do you think a licence will guarantee you not getting food poisoning and certainly won't prevent anyone having an allergy reaction this is up to the person themselves to watch out for.

There is simply no requirement for a licence, such a licence doesn't even exist.

Ted_YNWA

If you are advertising as a Bed & Breakfast, the clue is in the name of the service you are offering. The site you are using is quite right not to list you if you are not serving breakfast.

mille100piedi

thank you for your feedbacks

Ted_YNWA

A few places down here just offer accommodation, but provide a voucher for breakfast in cafe few doors down.

Could you use this option as a workaround to stay listed on site?

mille100piedi

Ted_YNWA wrote: »

A few places down here just offer accommodation, but provide a voucher for breakfast in cafe few doors down.

Could you use this option as a workaround to stay listed on site?

this is a great idea

The_Conductor

mille100piedi - what service are you proposing to supply to guests- and can you give us an idea of which websites you have in mind (particularly the one which you appear to be having issues with).

Also- what do you mean by 'hosting'- e.g. depending on the market you're going after- there may be rules governing it (such as hosting students for language schools/courses- as opposed to occasional visitors/guests).

The term 'hosting' could mean any of a number of different things- people aren't picking on you- we don't know what you're intending to offer, to whom, and via what mediums.

Also- there are some rules and regulations regarding operating a B&B type arrangement- however, many of the rules are waived- if you operate 4 or fewer bedrooms- it was brought in to encourage 'On-Farm enterprises' i.e. to encourgage people to make some money from empty bedrooms (up to 4 bedrooms) without needlessly tying them up in regulations/legislation.

Once you go over 4 bedrooms- you need formal certification from a local authority- alongside planning for a change-of-use for the property (as it would no longer qualify for a residential waiver).

Link to a reasonably well researched article here

mille100piedi

The_Conductor wrote: »

mille100piedi - what service are you proposing to supply to guests- and can you give us an idea of which websites you have in mind (particularly the one which you appear to be having issues with).

Also- what do you mean by 'hosting'- e.g. depending on the market you're going after- there may be rules governing it (such as hosting students for language schools/courses- as opposed to occasional visitors/guests).

The term 'hosting' could mean any of a number of different things- people aren't picking on you- we don't know what you're intending to offer, to whom, and via what mediums.

Also- there are some rules and regulations regarding operating a B&B type arrangement- however, many of the rules are waived- if you operate 4 or fewer bedrooms- it was brought in to encourage 'On-Farm enterprises' i.e. to encourgage people to make some money from empty bedrooms (up to 4 bedrooms) without needlessly tying them up in regulations/legislation.

Once you go over 4 bedrooms- you need formal certification from a local authority- alongside planning for a change-of-use for the property (as it would no longer qualify for a residential waiver).

Link to a reasonably well researched article here

We are just renting one room. to students, tourists, professionals, university students, people that come here looking for a job and people that come here to visit family. We rent for short term and long term. Long term guest can use the kitchen, short term guests, can't, but they have a small fridge a kettle and microwave in the room and we live in front of a spar and near other supermarkets.
I am not sure I can tell which website we are using? we are using the most popular and we are listed as homestay (not B&B)
All our guests were happy just the last one complained about not having breakfast and asked a refund. We rented him the room for 30 Euros a night, I don't know how much money he has been refunded, but I guess it was a ridiculous amount.

The_Conductor

mille100piedi wrote: »

We are just renting one room. to students, tourists, professionals, university students, people that come here looking for a job and people that come here to visit family. We rent for short term and long term. Long term guest can use the kitchen, short term guests, can't, but they have a small fridge a kettle and microwave in the room and we live in front of a spar and near other supermarkets.
I am not sure I can tell which website we are using? we are using the most popular and we are listed as homestay (not B&B)
All our guests were happy just the last one complained about not having breakfast and asked a refund. We rented him the room for 30 Euros a night, I don't know how much money he has been refunded, but I guess it was a ridiculous amount.

Do these people have a reasonable expectation that you are offering a B&B service? That appears to be the knux of the issue. From what you've described to me- I probably would expect at very least a continental breakfast type setup. Its not unusual to have facilities to make a cup of tea or have a snack in your room- however, this wouldn't normally be instead of a formal breakfast (unless specifically stated as such).

It really depends on how your room is being advertised- if the site you're using is normally used for bed-and-breakfast- then, yes, the guest would have a reasonable expectation that this is what they were getting- if not- well, its as specified.

It may be the case that you simply have to list on a different site- or be 100% overt that you are letting the room, and what exactly it entails.

Personally- it wouldn't bother me either way- if I had access to a breakfast elsewhere.

mille100piedi

The_Conductor wrote: »

Do these people have a reasonable expectation that you are offering a B&B service? That appears to be the knux of the issue. From what you've described to me- I probably would expect at very least a continental breakfast type setup. Its not unusual to have facilities to make a cup of tea or have a snack in your room- however, this wouldn't normally be instead of a formal breakfast (unless specifically stated as such).

It really depends on how your room is being advertised- if the site you're using is normally used for bed-and-breakfast- then, yes, the guest would have a reasonable expectation that this is what they were getting- if not- well, its as specified.

It may be the case that you simply have to list on a different site- or be 100% overt that you are letting the room, and what exactly it entails.

Personally- it wouldn't bother me either way- if I had access to a breakfast elsewhere.

guests are not expecting breakfast, we had only problem with the last one. He wanted to use the kitchen when in our listing is written in capital letter that guests can't use the kitchen. But I understand that this particular web site can be confusing. they request hosts to serve breakfast. It is not a service that we really want to provide because 99% of our guests are ok with no breakfast but we might offer some kind of breakfast to the guests of that website if we understand what we can offer. They told us we can serve bread and butter, but
what happen if one of our guest got sick for the food? can they sue us?

Scraggs

There will always be people who are not happy and look for refunds in every business. Sometimes complaints are justified and sometimes these people can be total chancers. If you've never had complaints before and are sure that your advert isn't misleading then just write it off and forget about it.

Spanish Eyes

Just throw a few croissants and jam into the room in the morning. They can make their own coffee/tea and you will of course put a bit of butter and some milk in the tiny fridge. Add a plate, cup spoon and knife and you will be sorted, and your kitchen will be untouched by your guests.

I don't see the problem here. Unless I was a fully fledged B and B I wouldn't provide a cooked breakfast at all.

mille100piedi

I have got the response from Food Safety Authority of Ireland:

You do not need a licence to serve breakfast/food but you do need to register as a food business operator with your local office of the Health Service Executive (HSE).  Contact details are listed here: https://www.fsai.ie/make_a_complaint/contact_details_for_hse.html
Regards,

Information Assistant 
Food Safety Authority of Ireland
Abbey Court
Lower Abbey Street
Dublin 1
DO1 W2H4

www.fsai.ie  

From a food safety point of view you just need to register regardless of how you are selling the food. 
Best wishes,

 
---- Original Text ----
Thank you very much, do we need to register as a food business operator also if we sell food in single sealed bag?

mille100piedi

to be a business operator you have to follow the rules in the link:

https://www.fsai.ie/food_businesses/starting_business.html

no idea how that website is asking hosts to serve breakfast, when serving food it is a complex matter, I guess nothing very bad happened to any guest yet

I would very much doubt that you have to register in the business type you describe.

If you were keeping a student all term (digs) you would also be serving them meals but they are just a guest in your home so you aren't really running a business, I don't see much of a difference between what you are doing and this.

Lux23

I don't think you will have any legal problems by offering cereals, bread for toasting etc.

mille100piedi

Did Food Safety Authority of Ireland give me wrong information?
my question to them was:
Hi, we rent a room trough XXX.com, the company is requesting us to serve breakfast. We thought you need a licence but they told us that we can serve some bread and cereal and we don't need any licence. Is this true? We don't want to risk the health of our guests. Thanks
 

I'd really like to know how you are risking the health of your guests by providing breakfast now and not if you provide the same breakfast after filling out a form to say you serve breakfast.

If all you have to do is register then sure why not just do it if that's all that needs to be done.

mille100piedi

Ezekiel Gray Cheese wrote: »

I'd really like to know how you are risking the health of your guests by providing breakfast now and not if you provide the same breakfast after filling out a form to say you serve breakfast.

If all you have to do is register then sure why not just do it if that's all that needs to be done.

I guess you didn't open the link I posted

Lumen

mille100piedi wrote: »

to be a business operator you have to follow the rules in the link:

https://www.fsai.ie/food_businesses/starting_business.html

no idea how that website is asking hosts to serve breakfast, when serving food it is a complex matter, I guess nothing very bad happened to any guest yet

Those rules don't look onerous. From my reading you only need to register with environmental health so that they can do inspections if they want.

If you think that's unnecessary, consider that even breakfast cereals might be stored in an area infested with mould and mice, and your fridge might be broken and turning the milk off.

For the traceability aspect, just keep receipts. That's just common sense - if your guests find a dead animal in a box of frosties and decide to to sue you for emotional distress, you know who to hold liable.

If you don't like any of this, just withdraw from whichever company is marketing your service and insisting that you serve food.

mille100piedi

I do think it is necessary follow the rules and you are right and this is the main reason I wrote this post. You are right the rules are not onerous,
we don't think we will use this website for hosting, but the company should write in their T&C's that to serve food hosts should comply to the rules of the country where their are hosting.

TSQ

The_Conductor wrote: »

mille100piedi - ....

Also- there are some rules and regulations regarding operating a B&B type arrangement- however, many of the rules are waived- if you operate 4 or fewer bedrooms- it was brought in to encourage 'On-Farm enterprises' i.e. to encourgage people to make some money from empty bedrooms (up to 4 bedrooms) without needlessly tying them up in regulations/legislation.

Once you go over 4 bedrooms- you need formal certification from a local authority- alongside planning for a change-of-use for the property (as it would no longer qualify for a residential waiver).

Link to a reasonably well researched article here

If anyone monitoring this thread: where do I find more information regarding the waiver for planning permission for B&B of less than 4 bedrooms? I contacted my planning office and was told I would need to apply for change of use to commercial.:rolleyes:

dennyk

mille100piedi wrote: »

we don't think we will use this website for hosting, but the company should write in their T&C's that to serve food hosts should comply to the rules of the country where their are hosting.

I'll lay odds that somewhere in their T&Cs they do have some sort of general disclaimer to that effect. Even if they don't, though, it's not the listing company's job to tell hosts that they have to obey the law; the duty would fall on a host to ensure they are fully in compliance with whatever local laws govern the services they are providing.