Garda speed van illegally parked?

countinsheep

Hi, can't really find anything on this and I'm interested to see if anyone's come across this.

What happens if the Garda speed van is illegally parked, can they still prosecute? Would a judge rule against the charge?

For illegally parking, I'm thinking something like, parking on horizontal lines, parking on a double yellow - that kind of stuff.

Any thoughts?

Thanks

_Brian

But you'd still be speeding, right ?

GM228

Garda speed vans can't illegally park as they are exempt from the Traffic and Parking Regulations when performing their duties.

testicles

This post has been deleted.

jpfahy

GM228 wrote: »

Garda speed vans can't illegally park as they are exempt from the Traffic and Parking Regulations when performing their duties.

That exemption is there to allow Gardai deal with emergencies. It would not cover a non-emergency situation where Gardai deliberately park illegally to set up a speed trap. Whether a Judge would dismiss any evidence obtained in that way I don't know but it would be worth arguing.

countinsheep

GM228 wrote: »

Garda speed vans can't illegally park as they are exempt from the Traffic and Parking Regulations when performing their duties.

Ah ok, interesting, thanks

countinsheep

_Brian wrote: »

But you'd still be speeding, right ?

Yep, in the scenario the person being charged was speeding.

I was cycling home and seen one illegally parked, stuck in my head thinking evidence couldn't be obtained from illegal acts etc.
Garda being exempt from 'Traffic and Parking Regulations when performing their duties' like GM228 says would make sense. Or more accurately, not illegally parked as they are exempt and therefore cannot be illegally parked in the first place.

biko

It can be argued that the two "crimes" are unrelated.
Just because they were parked on double yellow doesn't mean their evidence it not admissible in court.

countinsheep

jpfahy wrote: »

That exemption is there to allow Gardai deal with emergencies. It would not cover a non-emergency situation where Gardai deliberately park illegally to set up a speed trap. Whether a Judge would dismiss any evidence obtained in that way I don't know but it would be worth arguing.

Ah ok, cool. The plots thickens a little

So that exemption is for use in emergency situations, not for standard practice like a speed trap.

So potentially any charge from a van parked as described above could potentially be revoked by a judge, interesting...

GM228

jpfahy wrote: »

That exemption is there to allow Gardai deal with emergencies. It would not cover a non-emergency situation where Gardai deliberately park illegally to set up a speed trap. Whether a Judge would dismiss any evidence obtained in that way I don't know but it would be worth arguing.

Actually no, the exemption is automatic in the performance of their duties - it is not specific to any particular duty. Once a Garda is on duty they are performing their duties.

Jawgap

countinsheep wrote: »

Ah ok, cool. The plots thickens a little

So that exemption is for use in emergency situations, not for standard practice like a speed trap.

So potentially any charge from a van parked as described above could potentially be revoked by a judge, interesting...

.....or found to be proven......and then you're facing a cranky judge whose time you've just wasted because you took advice from d'interwebs. Such a situation tends to end not well

countinsheep

biko wrote: »

It can be argued that the two "crimes" are unrelated.
Just because they were parked on double yellow doesn't mean their evidence it not admissible in court.

I thought it would come under the "fruit of the poisonous tree" umbrella. Where the evidence was obtained illegally and therefore couldn't be admissible in court...

countinsheep

Jawgap wrote: »

.....or found to be proven......and then you're facing a cranky judge whose time you've just wasted because you took advice from d'interwebs. Such a situation tends to end not well

haha, that would not be good

Jawgap

countinsheep wrote: »

I thought it would come under the "fruit of the poisonous tree" umbrella. Where the evidence was obtained illegally and therefore couldn't be admissible in court...

Nope, that's an American concept......an illegally parked speed van doesn't generate evidence by impinging on your rights......the tree has to be 'poisoned' by the evidence being gathered at the expense of or other of your legal rights as an individual.

Cheensbo

Judge Zaidan would love that one, you'd probably end up with a custodial sentence though :pac:

Del2005

GM228 wrote: »

Actually no, the exemption is automatic in the performance of their duties - it is not specific to any particular duty. Once a Garda is on duty they are performing their duties.

Aren't Gardaí always on duty, they just aren't rostered to work all the time

What about an illegally parked GoSafe van? They are civilians and so aren't exempt from parking laws.

Victor

Del2005 wrote: »

Aren't Gardaí always on duty, they just aren't rostered to work all the time

They are always members of the Garda and have the power of a garda, but they are not always on duty. Otherwise they could be done under the disciplinary regulations for sleeping on duty, drunk on duty, etc.

jpfahy wrote: »

That exemption is there to allow Gardai deal with emergencies. It would not cover a non-emergency situation where Gardai deliberately park illegally to set up a speed trap.

No. It covers them when on duty, not just in an emergency. See below. Are you suggesting that if they were blocking a side street with their vehicle (to prevent unauthorised vehicles from accessing the parade route) during the St. Patrick's Day parade or while doing an explosives escort to a quarry, that they would be acting illegally?

What about an illegally parked GoSafe van? They are civilians and so aren't exempt from parking laws.

No. They are operating under the direction of a member of the Garda Síochána - the local superintendent that has directed them to the particular location and activity. See below.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2014/act/3/section/23/enacted/en/html#sec23

23. Section 87 of the Act of 2010 is amended by substituting for subsection (1) the following:

“(1) Requirements under the Road Traffic Acts 1961 to 2010 relating to vehicles and requirements, restrictions and prohibitions relating to the driving and use of vehicles, other than those provided under sections 49, 50, 51A, 52 and 53 of the Principal Act, sections 12, 13 and 15 of the Act of 1994 and sections 4, 5, 11, 12 and 14 of this Act, do not apply to—

(a) the driving or use by a member of the Garda Síochána, an ambulance service (provided by a pre-hospital emergency care service provider recognised by the Pre-Hospital Emergency Care Council established by the Pre-Hospital Emergency Care Council (Establishment) Order 2000 ( S.I. No. 109 of 2000 )) or a fire brigade of a fire authority (within the meaning of the Fire Services Act 1981 ) of a vehicle in the performance of the duties of that member, or

(b) a person driving or using a vehicle under the direction of a member of the Garda Síochána,

where such use does not endanger the safety of road users.”.

GM228

Victor wrote: »

Del2005 wrote: »

What about an illegally parked GoSafe van? They are civilians and so aren't exempt from parking laws.

No. They are operating under the direction of a member of the Garda Síochána - the local superintendent that has directed them to the particular location and activity. See below.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2014/act/3/section/23/enacted/en/html#sec23

Whilst GoSafe technically had an exemption under S87 (1)(b) they got a specific exemption from the Traffic and Parking Regulations 1997 last year under the Road Traffic (Traffic and Parking) (Amendment) Regulations 2016 which were specifically enacted to exempt them.

I understand this was as a result of Attorney General advice for the avoidance of any doubt.

jpfahy

GM228 wrote: »

Actually no, the exemption is automatic in the performance of their duties - it is not specific to any particular duty. Once a Garda is on duty they are performing their duties.

Why then, when an automatic speeding notice is issued to a Garda vehicle, does the driver have to write a report detailing why he/she was exceeding the speed limit at that particular time in order to get it cancelled??
Can Gardai just pull up the patrol car on double yellow lines outside Starbucks and be completely exempt prosecution by traffic wardens as they are on duty? No they can't.
Years ago they could because they weren't challenged but the world is different now. It's a matter of interpretation of the law and the interpretation has changed.

Riva10

biko wrote: »

It can be argued that the two "crimes" are unrelated.
Just because they were parked on double yellow doesn't mean their evidence it not admissible in court.

Would evidence obtained in an illegal search by The Gardaí be admissable in court?

Jawgap

Riva10 wrote: »

Would evidence obtained in an illegal search by The Gardaí be admissable in court?

Depends on the nature of the illegality and the nature of the search.....

.....and just because it happens in Law & Order, doesn't mean it'll fly in a District Court here

ohnonotgmail

Riva10 wrote: »

Would evidence obtained in an illegal search by The Gardaí be admissable in court?

Only a judge can decide that on the day. It is not a yes or no answer.

bladespin

Riva10 wrote: »

Would evidence obtained in an illegal search by The Gardaí be admissable in court?

Oh yes, very much so.

It'll be up to the judge whether or not it's taken into account.

Riva10

Jawgap wrote: »

Depends on the nature of the illegality and the nature of the search.....

.....and just because it happens in Law & Order, doesn't mean it'll fly in a District Court here

A number of years ago out of date search warrants were enough to deem evidence obtained as inadmitable. These cases were in relation to suspected paedophiles in Ireland and not in Law and Order (Whatever that is) :eek:
.

Jawgap

Riva10 wrote: »

A number of years ago out of date search warrants were enough to deem evidence obtained as inadmitable. These cases were in relation to suspected paedophiles in Ireland and not in Law and Order (Whatever that is) :eek:
.

yes, i remember it (it was the prosecution of disgraced judge Brian Curtain) - and there's been other cases where defective warrants have rendered evidence gathered under them inadmissible.....and for important reasons - your home is inviolable in law and your entitled to be protected there. When the Guards are given permission to enter your home the courts generally see fit to impose limits on the search in proportion to the alleged offence being investigated and the evidence already gathered......

......it is, legally speaking, a world away from an "illegally" parked or positioned speed van clocking someone in a public place.

By all means, if you feel the Curtain case is relevant, then argue it.

Personally, I think the best course of action is simply not to speed.

I love Sean nos

jpfahy wrote: »

it would be worth arguing.

Would it? Please elaborate.

To assist, I offer the following starter arguments:

A) The Garda van was parked illegally, therefore the speed limit didn't apply.
The Garda van was parked illegally, therefore the detection equipment wasn't working.
C) The Garda van was parked illegally, therefore I wasn't the person driving.
D) The Garda van was parked illegally, therefore my car was somewhere else.

Little CuChulainn

jpfahy wrote: »

Why then, when an automatic speeding notice is issued to a Garda vehicle, does the driver have to write a report detailing why he/she was exceeding the speed limit at that particular time in order to get it cancelled??
Can Gardai just pull up the patrol car on double yellow lines outside Starbucks and be completely exempt prosecution by traffic wardens as they are on duty? No they can't.
Years ago they could because they weren't challenged but the world is different now. It's a matter of interpretation of the law and the interpretation has changed.

For two reasons. Firstly, there has to a visible process for cancelling a ticket or summons. The Garda driver writes the report and it is used as grounds for cancellation. Second, Gardai may have an exemption from the law but not from disciplinary matters. If the boss isn't happy with the reason for speeding the driver could be grounded.

In answer to your question about Starbucks, yes the payroll car can be parked on double yellows and be exempt from prosecution.

RustyNut

jpfahy wrote: »

Can Gardai just pull up the patrol car on double yellow lines outside Starbucks and be completely exempt prosecution by traffic wardens as they are on duty?

Gardai don't need to be driving an official garda car or even hold a driving licence to be exempt from road traffic law.

In this case a Garda who never held a full licence and who's provisional was years out of date was on his way to court, which I don't think counts as an emergency, killed a woman while driving his own car in a bus lane.
So yea parking outside Starbucks on double yellows is no problem for Noreen's minions....

GM228

jpfahy wrote: »

Why then, when an automatic speeding notice is issued to a Garda vehicle, does the driver have to write a report detailing why he/she was exceeding the speed limit at that particular time in order to get it cancelled??

It's an administrative procedure which applies to speeding tickets only, the Garda must give an account of any speeding incidents (generally for GoSafe detections) to show that they didn't endanger the safety of other road users.

On the few occassions where a member of the force has tried to prosecute another member for speeding the cases have been struck out or dismissed as the courts have no jurisdiction to proceed with such a case unless there is endangerment shown.

jpfahy wrote: »

Can Gardai just pull up the patrol car on double yellow lines outside Starbucks and be completely exempt prosecution by traffic wardens as they are on duty?  No they can't.

Yes they can.

jpfahy wrote: »

Years ago they could because they weren't challenged but the world is different now.  It's a matter of interpretation of the law and the interpretation has changed.

The interpretation has changed, really? You do realise that a court must take the literal interpretation of statute and can't start adding it's own provisions to achieve objectives which to the courts appear desirable, they can only interpret the law based on what is written into the law and they can't just decide that one day they will interpret it differently because we live in a different world, only the High/Supreme Court can interpret the law and only the Supreme Court could change any previous interpretation.

The issue is well settled and accepted by the courts that it is a blanket exemption (subject to not endangering others) when on duty even when in their private vehicle.

There is no subject to an emergency clause and as much as you may like to think there is not even the courts can add such a provision.

Victor

jpfahy wrote: »

Can Gardai just pull up the patrol car on double yellow lines outside Starbucks and be completely exempt prosecution by traffic wardens as they are on duty? No they can't.

GM228 wrote: »

Yes they can.

Unless there is an operational reason to do so, it is highly unprofessional.

We've all seen the parking outside Pearse Street Garda Station and it includes blocking the fire brigade.

Victor

Victor wrote: »

Unless there is an operational reason to do so, it is highly unprofessional.
.

Surely the fact they need to be close to their patrol car should an emergency arise is reason enough. From my experience parking laws are totally ignored by gardai and rightly so.

Riva10

Galilea Hundreds Skeptic wrote: »

Surely the fact they need to be close to their patrol car should an emergency arise is reason enough. From my experience parking laws are totally ignored by gardai and rightly so.

It would appear from the previous posts that those who are entrusted to uphold the laws are above these laws.

Victor

Galilea Hundreds Skeptic wrote: »

Surely the fact they need to be close to their patrol car should an emergency arise is reason enough. From my experience parking laws are totally ignored by gardai and rightly so.

But when they block one of the main routes from a fire station? Or park on the footpath at a bus stop so they can order pizza - from the pizzeria next to the Garda Station car park?

Little CuChulainn

Riva10 wrote: »

It would appear from the previous posts that those who are entrusted to uphold the laws are above these laws.

No, they simply are exempt from some laws.