Electric Car for the older lady

Shefwedfan

Ok, I posted this on sticky at top but didn't get much response.

To explain, my mother is older. She has an old Micra which has seen its best days gone long ago. There is actually 130k miles on it.

She wants to replace and really likes electric. Why you might ask, 3 reason really.
1. They are automatic small car
2. She doesn't need to go to garage to fill. I never even thought about it but she hates trying to use a petrol pump
3. Can get free electricity as retired

Her driving is spinning around to friends. She lives outside city but still max journey would be 60km round trip. Anything further and she has agreed to use the bus

Budget is around 5-6k with preference to stay at the 5k mark

What options out there? I talked to Phil and he mentioned Peugeot Ion.

Any idea's

Patser

Make sure she gets a granny cable.....



Sorry couldn't resist

BoatMad

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Ok, I posted this on sticky at top but didn't get much response.

To explain, my mother is older. She has an old Micra which has seen its best days gone long ago. There is actually 130k miles on it.

She wants to replace and really likes electric. Why you might ask, 3 reason really.
1. They are automatic small car
2. She doesn't need to go to garage to fill. I never even thought about it but she hates trying to use a petrol pump
3. Can get free electricity as retired

Her driving is spinning around to friends. She lives outside city but still max journey would be 60km round trip. Anything further and she has agreed to use the bus

Budget is around 5-6k with preference to stay at the 5k mark

What options out there? I talked to Phil and he mentioned Peugeot Ion.

Any idea's

Early Leaf would be ideal , missing a battery bar or two would make little difference to her.

7k should do it , 5k is a bit tight

Orebro

I've seen lots of posts with people saying 7k will get you into an EV - I'm not convinced about that. The cheapest ones in the UK on autotrader are well north of 6 to 6.5k Sterling (non Flex), and you need to add flights, ferry etc to all that.

unkel

Soarer bought a decent spec first gen Leaf for €6k in Ireland a few weeks ago. Two bars missing as can be expected, but that would be fine for a local runabout the older lady is looking for. If she's on a real tight budget, she could do without a home charger for a while. She's plenty of time on her hands so a weekly / twice weekly fast charge or maybe parking at the trainstation slow charging while getting the free train to visit family / town is another option

Now he got a good deal, it's a bit of a bench mark, but something around €6k-€7k should be possible. Not a lot of them come up though...

Soarer

I'll sell her mine for €7,500, with granny cable!

@ OP. The only thing you'd get at that would be the Peugoet or an iMiev or something. Twizzy is cheap, but not for older people.

Or a G-wizz.

unkel

Wasn't thinking of it yet, but chances are she never goes further than about 50-60km? How about a Fluence? No fast charging, but the good thing is she could pick up a 2012 EV in the UK for less than €4k. You organise someone getting it for her (about €350 I think?), organise a home charge point install and she would be sorted all-in for around her €5k budget!

Soarer

Was gonna suggest the Fluence, but aren't they all battery rental?

Plus, it's probably on the big side coming from a Micra.

unkel

Yeah they are battery rental. Well most of them are. But it looks like if a UK seller sells it to you, and you bring it over here, there's nothing anybody can do about it pretty much (we discussed it here at some point). The buyer here would not be liable for the battery lease contract and the owner of the battery is not going to demand to take the battery from your car. And no one can remotely brick a Fluence.

Now how to explain all that to a granny? Maybe not such a great plan

Shefwedfan

Soarer wrote: »

Was gonna suggest the Fluence, but aren't they all battery rental?

Plus, it's probably on the big side coming from a Micra.

The Fluence came to mind but she doesn't like the size of it.

Doesn't want to go any bigger than a Micra really. I know the Leaf is a little bit bigger but she could live with that. I should have added the Micra is only 2 door, she would prefer 4 door

Shefwedfan

unkel wrote: »

Soarer bought a decent spec first gen Leaf for €6k in Ireland a few weeks ago. Two bars missing as can be expected, but that would be fine for a local runabout the older lady is looking for. If she's on a real tight budget, she could do without a home charger for a while. She's plenty of time on her hands so a weekly / twice weekly fast charge or maybe parking at the trainstation slow charging while getting the free train to visit family / town is another option

Now he got a good deal, it's a bit of a bench mark, but something around €6k-€7k should be possible. Not a lot of them come up though...

She is based outside Dublin. So she would have to drive the 30km to get to the charge points. There is a total of 4 charge points in the entire county. All circa same distance from her house....

Shefwedfan

unkel wrote: »

Yeah they are battery rental. Well most of them are. But it looks like if a UK seller sells it to you, and you bring it over here, there's nothing anybody can do about it pretty much (we discussed it here at some point). The buyer here would not be liable for the battery lease contract and the owner of the battery is not going to demand to take the battery from your car. And no one can remotely brick a Fluence.

Now how to explain all that to a granny? Maybe not such a great plan

I seen a couple of Zoe's in UK on the battery rental. Would this be similar? they came in at 5k UKP.....

What is range on the older Zoe

reboot

Shefwedfan wrote: »

unkel wrote: »

Yeah they are battery rental. Well most of them are. But it looks like if a UK seller sells it to you, and you bring it over here, there's nothing anybody can do about it pretty much (we discussed it here at some point). The buyer here would not be liable for the battery lease contract and the owner of the battery is not going to demand to take the battery from your car. And no one can remotely brick a Fluence.

Now how to explain all that to a granny? Maybe not such a great plan

I seen a couple of Zoe's in UK on the battery rental. Would this be similar? they came in at 5k UKP.....

What is range on the older Zoe

Older Zoe range in Summer, around mid 90s, in winter 75/80, driving sensibly.Not a welcome topic in these parts, but on AC, Zoe takes only half as long too charge as a Leaf I have been driving Zoes for 4 years, live in a rural area, and only ever
used a rapid charger once, because it was there, not because I needed it. A home 7 kV a charger would be worth looking at with a night tarriff, around 8p/unit,(kwhr)

And it should be clarified that Zoe charges at 22 Kw only at public AC points. People might get confused thinking you can charge at home at that power. And it takes a lot less than half the time.

Zoe charges at 3.3 Kw or 7 Kw from a home charge point depending on the charge point installed which is usually 3.7 Kw.

Zoe is about 70% efficient charging at a home charge point compared to 90% for the Leaf.

Zoe can charge to 80% in about 1 hr V 2.8 hrs for the Leaf at 6.6 Kw or 5 hrs for the 3.3 Kw leaf. The Leaf 30 Kwh will take 1 hr longer at 6.6 Kw and 2 hrs longer at 3.3 Kw, these are charge times from 0%. Most people will have more than 0%.

Of course these are figures for new and healthy batteries.

Shefwedfan

reboot wrote: »

Older Zoe range in Summer, around mid 90s, in winter 75/80, driving sensibly.Not a welcome topic in these parts, but on AC, Zoe takes only half as long too charge as a Leaf I have been driving Zoes for 4 years, live in a rural area, and only ever
used a rapid charger once, because it was there, not because I needed it. A home 7 kV a charger would be worth looking at with a night tarriff, around 8p/unit,(kwhr)

Thanks, I like the look of the Zoe. But looks like similar range to Ion.

Cost will matter

beauf

I like the idea of a EV for an older person. But they tend to like a simpler dash. (as I do). How do EV's fair in that regard.

Do any have an automatic boot open and close?

beauf

reboot wrote: »

Older Zoe range in Summer, around mid 90s, in winter 75/80, driving sensibly.Not a welcome topic in these parts, but on AC, Zoe takes only half as long too charge as a Leaf I have been driving Zoes for 4 years, live in a rural area, and only ever
used a rapid charger once, because it was there, not because I needed it. A home 7 kV a charger would be worth looking at with a night tarriff, around 8p/unit,(kwhr)

Why are there so few Zoes vs Leafs on the road. I dunno the numbers but a rarely see a Zoe.

goz83

beauf wrote: »

Why are there so few Zoes vs Leafs on the road. I dunno the numbers but a rarely see a Zoe.

two words

Battery Rental

beauf

I'm assuming that makes it more expensive.

Mancomb Seepgood

goz83 wrote: »

two words

Battery Rental

It appears from the Renault website that battery rental has been done away with in Ireland.That would only apply to new purchases though.

Shefwedfan

beauf wrote: »

I like the idea of a EV for an older person. But they tend to like a simpler dash. (as I do). How do EV's fair in that regard.

Do any have an automatic boot open and close?

The pics I have seen of the Ion it looks like a fairly simple dash. Similar to normal car.....https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/peugeot/ion

Some images here

goz83

beauf wrote: »

I'm assuming that makes it more expensive.

The car is purchased cheaper if battery is rented, but the monthly rental depends on mileage and would be around €100pm on average.

It makes it much harder to sell the car on and the resale value plummets. There's a fluence on DD at the moment for just over 5k. Its a very nice 2012 car, but at €80pm battery rental, the fuel savings go down the toilet. Imagine trying to sell it on in another 5 years.

Thankfully Renault now sell their EVs here without the rental, but that's a very recent change and older cars are stuck with the agreement.

KCross

Deleted User wrote: »

Zoe is about 70% efficient charging at a home charge point compared to 90% for the Leaf.

Deleted User wrote: »

Zoe can charge to 80% in about 1 hr V 2.8 hrs for the Leaf at 6.6 Kw

Can you explain these two points to me please?

Why is the Zoe so inefficient at charging considering Renault and Nissan are the same company and presumably share some components/technology?

And how can the Zoe charge to 80% quicker than a Leaf on a home charger if it is limited to 32A the same as the Leaf and the Zoe is less efficient?

cros13

KCross wrote: »

Why is the Zoe so inefficient at charging considering Renault and Nissan are the same company and presumably share some components/technology?

I don't think it's as bad as 70% but it's definitely worse than other EVs. Renault uses the main drive inverter and the motor windings as part of the Zoe's Chameleon charger. It hits peak charging efficiency around 3 phase 50A but on single phase it's terribly inefficient (comparatively) and gets worse the less current you feed it.

Note: this use of drive system components also exposes the car to more severe damage if there is an issue with the supply (e.g. lightning strike).

KCross wrote: »

And how can the Zoe charge to 80% quicker than a Leaf on a home charger if it is limited to 32A the same as the Leaf and the Zoe is less efficient?

The older Zoe has a smaller battery than the 24kWh Leaf and charges can pull up to 7.4kW (vs 3.3/6.6 for the Leaf). Even with the loss in efficiency it charges a little bit quicker than the Leaf.

n97 mini

KCross wrote: »

Why is the Zoe so inefficient at charging considering Renault and Nissan are the same company and presumably share some components/technology?

They're not. The strategic alliance partnership between Renault and Nissan is not a merger or an acquisition. The two companies are joined together through a cross-sharing agreement. Renault own 44% of Nissan and Nissan own 15% of Renault.

KCross

cros13 wrote: »

I don't think it's as bad as 70% but it's definitely worse than other EVs. Renault uses the main drive inverter and the motor windings as part of the Zoe's Chameleon charger. It hits peak charging efficiency around 3 phase 50A but on single phase it's terribly inefficient (comparatively) and gets worse the less current you feed it.

Note: this use of drive system components also exposes the car to more severe damage if there is an issue with the supply (e.g. lightning strike).



The older Zoe has a smaller battery than the 24kWh Leaf and charges can pull up to 7.4kW (vs 3.3/6.6 for the Leaf). Even with the loss in efficiency it charges a little bit quicker than the Leaf.

Thats a fairly negative aspect to the Zoe. That reduction in efficiency is hitting your bottomline costs everyday.

Charger efficiency isn't something you see in the literature about an EV so I'll be locking that piece of info into my long term memory when I look at my next EV and asking that question.

cros13

TBH I'd be more worried about the increased risk of a malfunctioning chargepoint or weather event causing expensive damage to the car than the difference in charging efficiency... it adds up, but for the average owner it's unlikely to add up to more than 30-40 euro annually on to the bill.

It is a good argument against using the granny cable as a regular charging method with a Zoe though 'cause you get the double whammy of slower charging and even worse efficiency.
Also another argument for Zoe owners to buy 32A chargepoints when the ESB ones run out.

Indeed, it's not something I'd be too worried about given the cheap cost of electricity. But Unkel seems to be obsessed about the efficiency of his ioniq ! :pac:

n97 mini

Deleted User wrote: »

Indeed, it's not something I'd be too worried about given the cheap cost of electricity. But Unkel seems to be obsessed about the efficiency of his ioniq ! :pac:

Even tho he only ever charges at the Lucan FCP. Indeed some say he never leaves it

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

Indeed, it's not something I'd be too worried about given the cheap cost of electricity. But Unkel seems to be obsessed about the efficiency of his ioniq ! :pac:

Nope

Range is important to me, acceleration and top speed are too. I don't care about efficiency in itself.

Got my 15m cable last week, so my last charge was at home!

reboot

It's a great little car, and just to be clear, I normally get a top up full charge on AC 22 kva street charger in about 40 mins, go for a coffee, and the electric is still free.

unkel

And you and your Zoe might be the ones laughing should it be decided that most current slow charge points will remain in place and slow charging will remain free - something entirely possible.

reboot

unkel wrote: »

And you and your Zoe might be the ones laughing should it be decided that most current slow charge points will remain in place and slow charging will remain free - something entirely possible.

Unkel, I would be happy with a 7kva CP at any old lampost, as per the BMW set-up in Europe, not expensive, and no 3 phase needed.

Shefwedfan

I am just wondering what is range in 2015 Zoe?

Small edit required

goz83

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I am just wondering what is range in 2105 Zoe?

When they release it, I reckon it will get to Mars and back with plenty left in the tank.

Shefwedfan

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I am just wondering what is range in 2015 Zoe?

Small edit required

Sorry I am actually losing the plot...I asked that before...:D