Buy or lease entitlements

august12

Any advise as to whether to buy or lease entitlements, have about 10 ha of land with no entitlements. This is mostly forest planted in 2009 and purchased about 3 years ago. Unsure what to do as there is a lot of uncertainty as to what will happen post 2019.

Hard Knocks

august12 wrote: »

Any advise as to whether to buy or lease entitlements, have about 10 ha of land with no entitlements. This is mostly forest planted in 2009 and purchased about 3 years ago. Unsure what to do as there is a lot of uncertainty as to what will happen post 2019.

You're leaving it a bit tight
In a similar position here, tried the Auctioneers (advertised in the Journal), they didn't have anything for sale, & only had bits to lease, so we leased for this year

august12

Hard Knocks wrote:

You're leaving it a bit tight In a similar position here, tried the Auctioneers (advertised in the Journal), they didn't have anything for sale, & only had bits to lease, so we leased for this year

Thanks, would you advise higher value entitlements to lease or buy,

Dozer1

I'm leasing the last 2 years its tricky to get ones at decent value.

very few for sale this year even less last year

Hard Knocks

august12 wrote: »

Hard Knocks wrote:

You're leaving it a bit tight In a similar position here, tried the Auctioneers (advertised in the Journal), they didn't have anything for sale, & only had bits to lease, so we leased for this year

Thanks, would you advise higher value entitlements to lease or buy,

The higher the entitlement value the higher the percentage you have to give.
Best thing to do is ring and see if any entitlements are available and work from there.
As for which to go for, I went with which would put most in my pocket (Sum at end of year - upfront payment)

The part time boy

People leasing out entilments is bit of a joke.

It should be use it or lose it policy. If your not farming the land why should you be supported

6480

The part time boy wrote: »

People leasing out entilments is bit of a joke.

It should be use it or lose it policy. If your not farming the land why should you be supported

Yes your dead right there ,

freedominacup

The part time boy wrote: »

People leasing out entilments is bit of a joke.

It should be use it or lose it policy. If your not farming the land why should you be supported

What if you're farming the land but decide to lease out the entitlements anyway?

The part time boy

freedominacup wrote: »

The part time boy wrote: »

People leasing out entilments is bit of a joke.

It should be use it or lose it policy. If your not farming the land why should you be supported

What if you're farming the land but decide to lease out the entitlements anyway?

What advantage would that be ?

freedominacup

The part time boy wrote: »

What advantage would that be ?

You rid yourself of hassle from dept. Becoming a bit of a thing apparently.

kerry cow

I think the good old days of the punch was the fairest way .The price passed down in some part to the breeder , the rearer and the final factory puch .everyone benifit ed and it was a joy to go to the market .There was a air of positivity .The buyers were buzzing and the sell was pleased .even the suckler man or the cross x heifer with a calf at foot sold for the suckler cow .
Now its all about how to draw money for as little as possible to be done .
Look around the country side .never mind the golden Vale but the by roads and side roads .The field grow ragwort and rush .The hedges grow wider and wider .
I rathered it the old way .

The part time boy

freedominacup wrote: »

The part time boy wrote: »

What advantage would that be ?

You rid yourself of hassle from dept. Becoming a bit of a thing apparently.

As nice as that sounds but to do it At a finical loss to your self ?

The words nose and cut come to mind

freedominacup

The part time boy wrote: »

As nice as that sounds but to do it At a finical loss to your self ?

The size of the loss depends on whether compliance is costing you inoutput or cash terms. It wouldn't take much for some expanding dairy farms to find themselves wishing the had leased out if they are inspected.

MIKEKC

At three times their value take four years to get money back. What will happen after 2019 nobody knows

Username John

The part time boy wrote: »

People leasing out entilments is bit of a joke.

It should be use it or lose it policy. If your not farming the land why should you be supported

Why?

There was 30 years of lads leasing out milk quota... not sure how a use it or lose it would have gone if it was suggested back then

I suppose one could also ask 'if you farming the land - why should you be supported?'

The part time boy

uote=Username John;103421996]

The part time boy wrote: »

People leasing out entilments is bit of a joke.

It should be use it or lose it policy. If your not farming the land why should you be supported

Why?

There was 30 years of lads leasing out milk quota... not sure how a use it or lose it would have gone if it was suggested back then

I suppose one could also ask 'if you farming the land - why should you be supported?' [/quote]

First part . I don't think that was right either . Just cause it was done wrong before does not mean we should keep doing It wrong.

The 2nd part well that seems to be Europe solution to keeping price of food low. Now that is deeply flawed as i am getting paid for prodecing very little foos . Buy That's a total different discussion though

Username John

The part time boy wrote: »

uote=Username John;103421996]

Why?

There was 30 years of lads leasing out milk quota... not sure how a use it or lose it would have gone if it was suggested back then

I suppose one could also ask 'if you farming the land - why should you be supported?'

First part . I don't think that was right either . Just cause it was done wrong before does not mean we should keep doing It wrong.

The 2nd part well that seems to be Europe solution to keeping price of food low. Now that is deeply flawed as i am getting paid for prodecing very little foos . Buy That's a total different discussion though[/quote]

The reality is that the only fair way left now is to get rid of the SFP altogether... not sure there is much appetite for that...

Europe has made it clear they don't want to go back to a pay per head system... and won't have any interest in doing so, until there is a food shortage of some sort...

The way you see lads leasing entitlements as getting money for nothing, is the same as how some people outside farming see you getting a SFP... they see it as unfair, and money for nothing...

Who is right?

DJ98

How does this work? Leasing /buying entitlements

Hard Knocks

DJ98 wrote: »

How does this work? Leasing /buying entitlements

With leasing you pay 65% of the end of year value around now & get the full amount at the end of the year.
With buying you pay 2.5 times the end of year value
There is very few for sale due to government 20% clawback

If you’re interested contact Naughton/ HMG or any other firm dealing in entitlements asap to see what they have & prices

restive

I have recently purchased land solely because of its location. I did not really consider the entitlement situation before buying.

If i was to purchase entitlements. How would those entitlements be dealt with under the bps. Supposing I purchased entitlements worth €400 for 5 hectares the land I bought and my entitlements on existing land are worth 150 for 20 hectares. Does the department do two separate calculations when calculating my entitlements treating them separately or does the department simply does the department do one calculation for the entire land I now own. Averaging them out over 25 hectares?

TooOldBoots

restive wrote: »

I have recently purchased land solely because of its location. I did not really consider the entitlement situation before buying.

If i was to purchase entitlements. How would those entitlements be dealt with under the bps. Supposing I purchased entitlements worth €400 for 5 hectares the land I bought and my entitlements on existing land are worth 150 for 20 hectares. Does the department do two separate calculations when calculating my entitlements treating them separately or does the department simply does the department do one calculation for the entire land I now own. Averaging them out over 25 hectares?

No it'll be calculated separately. If you are buying entitlements try and get them around €100 above the average value, they tend to be the best value.
But it all depends on whats available. Like everything the earlier you start looking the better selection you have. If you wait to long you'll end up paying top money for below average entitlements

restive

When you say €100 above average. Do you mean above my average of €150.?

Grueller

restive wrote: »

When you say €100 above average. Do you mean above my average of €150.?

No, national average of about €250/ha

adne

Grueller wrote: »

No, national average of about €250/ha

Why?

Grueller

adne wrote: »

Why?

Pay 60% of €350 = €210
That leaves €140 profit per entitlement

Pay 50% of €200 entitlement = €100
Profit of €100

Disadvantage is more capital tied up.

adne

Grueller wrote: »

Pay 60% of €350 = €210
That leaves €140 profit per entitlement

Pay 50% of €200 entitlement = €100
Profit of €100

Disadvantage is more capital tied up.

I thought entitlements traded at 1.8 to 2.5 times their value

Hard Knocks

adne wrote: »

I thought entitlements traded at 1.8 to 2.5 times their value

60-65% to lease while purchasing can be up to 3.2 depending on value.
Harder to buy than lease