Entering Competition

Ben Bailey

Advice please ;

At my club, due to a change in the Bar & Restaurant times, members who were due to tee off before the Bar opened were advised to enter competitions by taking a Score Card and depositing the appropriate Entry Fee into an 'Honesty Box' placed in the lobby of the Club House. However due to a mix up at some level, the Club House remained locked until after our tee time and we could not enter the Competion - Singles S'ford - that we wished to.

At what point is it permissible to enter a Competion ?. Must it be before you tee off ?.
If Golf is self regulating then why not enter when you are next to the Club House again (after 9 holes) ?. Remember there is no computer involved and the Sign In & Pay Fee was entirely unsupervised. Anyone know ?

I wouldn't have any issue with you paying the fee once you got in. If the place is locked its locked. Is there some issue down your club over this, someone saying you shouldn't be allowed enter?

RoadRunner

I would think there needs to be a way to signal an intention to play in the comp before your first shot. Otherwise it invites an opportunity for you to selectively decide whether you are in the competition or not based on how your score unfolds.

- Get a 2 on front 9 (drop into club house, hey I was in the competition and here's my entry fee, I'll collect my winnings when I get back after 18)

- Scratch everything up to 9 (no need to drop in to clubhouse after 9 to pay - sure wasn't it just a practice round and I didn't sign anything)

It's like playing poker and being able to decide after you win what the stakes were.

Seve OB

why no computer?

Russman

RoadRunner wrote: »

I would think there needs to be a way to signal an intention to play in the comp before your first shot. Otherwise it invites an opportunity for you to selectively decide whether you are in the competition or not based on how your score unfolds.

- Get a 2 on front 9 (drop into club house, hey I was in the competition and here's my entry fee, I'll collect my winnings when I get back after 18)

- Scratch everything up to 9 (no need to drop in to clubhouse after 9 to pay - sure wasn't it just a practice round and I didn't sign anything)

It's like playing poker and being able to decide after you win what the stakes were.

I can see your point, but if the place is locked up, its locked up. Surely you can't hold back the entire field until someone arrives to open up ? It'd cause mayhem with the timesheet.
I think the practicalities of running competitions in some clubs override what might be the theoretically correct solution. Lots of clubs have run "honesty boxes" over the years and I think its rarely abused IMHO.

Ben Bailey

Lads, thanks for all your replies.

However it seems I need to clarify a few things.

No, there is no issue over access for anyone to the Club house. Due to a mix up on a particular day the main door was not, as planned, left unlocked so that members could access the area where the Comp Fee 'Honesty' box & Score Cards were left.

Roadrunner - I agree that allowing entry to a Competition at any point could lead to problems, but since this has never happened in the history of Golf I think we're ok.

Seve O'B. The computer is located in the Bar / Restaurant area which is locked until 9am. We tee off before then.

The main point of my post is ; Does anyone know where 'the latest time to enter a Competition is ....'
I can't find anything in the Rules or Decisions or get an opinion from the Club officers.

Is it to do with the paying of the Comp Entry Fee ?. What if you tee off at 7am and your Club House is now yet open ?

My own view is that since Golf is self regulating then any qualifying person can enter a Competition at any point (although I take Roadrunners point that some people would take advantage). Thoughts ?

Russman

Ben Bailey wrote: »

Lads, thanks for all your replies.

However it seems I need to clarify a few things.

No, there is no issue over access for anyone to the Club house. Due to a mix up on a particular day the main door was not, as planned, left unlocked so that members could access the area where the Comp Fee 'Honesty' box & Score Cards were left.

Roadrunner - I agree that allowing entry to a Competition at any point could lead to problems, but since this has never happened in the history of Golf I think we're ok.

Seve O'B. The computer is located in the Bar / Restaurant area which is locked until 9am. We tee off before then.

The main point of my post is ; Does anyone know where 'the latest time to enter a Competition is ....'
I can't find anything in the Rules or Decisions or get an opinion from the Club officers.

Is it to do with the paying of the Comp Entry Fee ?. What if you tee off at 7am and your Club House is now yet open ?

My own view is that since Golf is self regulating then any qualifying person can enter a Competition at any point (although I take Roadrunners point that some people would take advantage). Thoughts ?

There's a few decisions in the rules that skirt around the issue but nothing that really answers when the last time to enter is, from what I can see. I'd imagine its a condition to be set by the club/committee as its probably/possibly not strictly within the rules of golf. Rule 33 says that the committee is responsible for the conditions under which a competition is to be held.
I think in the scenario you described, its going to just be a little bit of common sense applied. Yes, you may get one or two people who take advantage, but really, (and I'm not defending it at all) what harm to other competitors if two people who played early don't bother to enter when they're finished ? The club is down by a few euro. Ideally you would of course indicate your intention to enter the comp, but its not always possible.

I've been to opens (particularly outside of Dublin) where an honesty box is there for your entry before a certain time, and there doesn't seem to be an issue. Even in my own club we have a Wednesday 9 hole, and often the pro has gone home by the time some people tee off in the evening, and there's just the book left out with envelopes to put your entry fee in. Seems to work fine.

Senna

Some mornings the person who opens up might be late, we just tee off and we walk past the clubhouse between the 5th and 6th holes, so we just sign in then.

Ben Bailey

Senna, what if the most convenient point to return & sign in is between the 9th & 10th holes, as it is in many clubs ?

(What if it is between the 16th & 17th holes etc etc ?)

What if not all your group want to sign in / enter competition ?. Would they happily accept the delay of game involved ?

There must be an overiding point after which Competition entry is unacceptable.

Russman

Ben Bailey wrote: »

Senna, what if the most convenient point to return & sign in is between the 9th & 10th holes, as it is in many clubs ?

(What if it is between the 16th & 17th holes etc etc ?)

What if not all your group want to sign in / enter competition ?. Would they happily accept the delay of game involved ?

There must be an overiding point after which Competition entry is unacceptable.

I'd say its one of those things where each clubs' unique situation comes into play. For instance, the first hour or so of our timesheet is pretty much the same names in more or less the same order, week in, week out. It could easily happen that the starter is a few minutes late, or there's an extra body looking to get out and a group might be splitting up to accommodate that, or a group going ahead of the sheet. To save time and get ahead of the field, they could often tee off without going into the shop, and enter while walking between the 6th & 7th, or even when they've finished. Its just taken as understood that they're going to enter. To be fair they'd usually stick their heads into the shop and say they're going ahead and will sign in later. The pro will know that these guys always enter and will soon figure out if someone is taking the p1ss with it. It happens rarely enough anyway that its not really an issue.

I think by trying to actively "regulate" it, its almost creating a solution looking for a problem.

Senna

Ben Bailey wrote: »

Senna, what if the most convenient point to return & sign in is between the 9th & 10th holes, as it is in many clubs ?

(What if it is between the 16th & 17th holes etc etc ?)

What if not all your group want to sign in / enter competition ?. Would they happily accept the delay of game involved ?

There must be an overiding point after which Competition entry is unacceptable.

There is a 2 hour gap on our computer so you must sign in at least 2 hours before you can enter a score. But the vast majority will sign in at the start, its only situations where the clubhouse isn't opened and in the last year or so, the comp is set up the night before and the cleaner opens up the locker room very early, so there is rarely an issue now.

Russman wrote: »

I'd say its one of those things where each clubs' unique situation comes into play. For instance, the first hour or so of our timesheet is pretty much the same names in more or less the same order, week in, week out. It could easily happen that the starter is a few minutes late, or there's an extra body looking to get out and a group might be splitting up to accommodate that, or a group going ahead of the sheet. To save time and get ahead of the field, they could often tee off without going into the shop, and enter while walking between the 6th & 7th, or even when they've finished. Its just taken as understood that they're going to enter. To be fair they'd usually stick their heads into the shop and say they're going ahead and will sign in later. The pro will know that these guys always enter and will soon figure out if someone is taking the p1ss with it. It happens rarely enough anyway that its not really an issue.

I think by trying to actively "regulate" it, its almost creating a solution looking for a problem.

I know of a local club that has no time gap on their computer and it is heavily abused. Some people (small minority) will only sign in at the end if they want that score entered (maybe they only want a point 1 back, maybe they only want a good score added, maybe the will save the entry fee if their score wont gain them a point 1 back or a cut). I agree that you cant regulate everything, but some clubs actively encourage this behavior and its well known in this particular club that it gets abused.

Hibrasil

Simple answer - no casual golf allowed when time sheet in operation -anyone on the course is presumed to be in the competition and if they renege on that - suspension from competitions for 1 month.

Senna

Hibrasil wrote: »

Simple answer - no casual golf allowed when time sheet in operation -anyone on the course is presumed to be in the competition and if they renege on that - suspension from competitions for 1 month.

So 4 days (in my club) a week you cant play a casual round? It might be an answer but its not simple and it would not work.

Seve OB

Hibrasil wrote: »

Simple answer - no casual golf allowed when time sheet in operation -anyone on the course is presumed to be in the competition and if they renege on that - suspension from competitions for 1 month.

is time sheet not always in operation? time sheet does not just mean competition.

but I know what you mean and have to fundamentally disagree with you. no way.
I know there are regularly lads playing on Saturdays in our club who wouldn't enter the comp. why not? I've no idea, but why should they if they shoot 15 points every week or coming back from injury or their fourball partner dropped out? they pay their subs which entitles them to play golf.

Ben Bailey

As to the point of a 2 hour gap from Sign In to Score entry on the computer, this leaves adequate time to sign in after first 9 & before playing second 9. So it would seem that where this timing is in place you must not sign in later than after 9 holes.

Unless of course you play all 18, Sign In & then have a leisurely lunch before remenbering to enter your score.

This is only an issue because financial cutbacks at my Club mean that play can start 2 hours before Entry to Comp is available.

But financial cutbacks are coming to many Clubs and this may become commonplace.
If the Honesty Box system is to be trusted then we will have no problem.
But at least one poster has already suggested that some will take advantage of any lessening of supervision.

Maybe I'll ask the GUI

Russman

Ben Bailey wrote: »

As to the point of a 2 hour gap from Sign In to Score entry on the computer, this leaves adequate time to sign in after first 9 & before playing second 9. So it would seem that where this timing is in place you must not sign in later than after 9 holes.

Unless of course you play all 18, Sign In & then have a leisurely lunch before remenbering to enter your score.

This is only an issue because financial cutbacks at my Club mean that play can start 2 hours before Entry to Comp is available.

But financial cutbacks are coming to many Clubs and this may become commonplace.
If the Honesty Box system is to be trusted then we will have no problem.
But at least one poster has already suggested that some will take advantage of any lessening of supervision.

Maybe I'll ask the GUI

I'd guess they'll either kick for touch and say "its up to the club what way they run their competitions", or give an absolute "all entries must be made before play begins". Personally I wouldn't bother, and let the system run for a few weeks and then take a view on it.

The 2hr (or whatever you set it for) timing thing can be a good idea, and the best job it seems to do is sorting out guys who, say, wait until they've finished to decide if they'll "enter" and then submit a card. We had guys who paid and entered in the shop, but weren't entering on the computer (which was in the locker room), and thus creating a requirement to submit a card, until they saw what score they had, predominately low guys who didn't want 0.1.

As regards guys who'll take advantage of less supervision, meh, you'll always have one or two, even with a watertight system. I'd take a bigger picture view and try to ensure you don't lose 2 hours of timesheet entries for fear 2 or 3 guys might not be bothering to enter.

Hibrasil

Seve OB wrote: »

is time sheet not always in operation? time sheet does not just mean competition.

but I know what you mean and have to fundamentally disagree with you. no way.
I know there are regularly lads playing on Saturdays in our club who wouldn't enter the comp. why not? I've no idea, but why should they if they shoot 15 points every week or coming back from injury or their fourball partner dropped out? they pay their subs which entitles them to play golf.

Where there are spaces on the time sheet designated for club competitions the playing of casual golf should be restricted to "vacant spaces" on the day of the competition..... with the committes approval....otherwise you have a competition with interloping hackers, if you get what I mean.

Nothing surprises me anymore about what people who play golf think.... the main reason I "gave it up".

Ben Bailey

Hibrasil wrote: »

Where there are spaces on the time sheet designated for club competitions the playing of casual golf should be restricted to "vacant spaces" on the day of the competition..... with the committes approval....otherwise you have a competition with interloping hackers, if you get what I mean.

Nothing surprises me anymore about what people who play golf think.... the main reason I "gave it up".

Perfect description of 90% of the membership at my Club

(A) "Do you play golf ?"
(B) "No, I'm more of an interloping hacker myself"