Diesel goes Prime Time

n97 mini

http://www.rte.ie/player/ie/show/prime-time-30003251/10719256/

Starts at around 14:54

Evd-Burner

@Mad_Lad, this is what I was referring to last night.

KCross

A good enough report actually. I'd say it opened a few eyes. Whether the government will do anything or not is the thing.

n97 mini

^ I wouldn't be expecting anything too radical!

Also I found it amazing the only person who mentioned the 1000 diesel buses on the streets of Dublin was the man from SIMI, and no-one mentioned the 20,000+ taxis.

Very easy to deal with the taxis: all newly registered taxis must be petrol/electric hybrids or EVs (London is doing this).

Dublin Bus on the other hand seems to be making no progress whatsoever away from diesel. They really need to start looking at what other countries are doing: CNG, BEV and in the US trolley buses are quite common, though overhead cabling infrastructure is obviously a limiting factor there.

Dravokivich

Dublin bus have trialed 2 hybrid buses. But it's NTA who provision them.

Evd-Burner

Evd-Burner wrote: »

@Mad_Lad, this is what I was referring to last night.

Yep will look at it later.

Nothing is going to happen in Ireland, we'll wait instead until it's enforced by the E.U.

Car makers are too slow to make electrics.

n97 mini

Dravokivich wrote: »

Dublin bus have trialed 2 hybrid buses. But it's NTA who provision them.

I'm aware. They've gone from 99.9% diesel to 100% diesel, with nothing new on the horizon is the point. In the US 20% of the bus fleet is CNG, and that figure is increasing fairly rapidly.

bk

Each of those individual taxis produces twice as much NOX and PM's as the Dublin Bus sitting next too it!

As in a taxi with just the driver in it sitting next to a Dublin Bus bus with just the driver in it, the taxi is actually producing twice the amount NOX!!! Fill both with passengers and you find that the taxi is producing almost 10 times the amount of NOX, etc. per passenger.

This is due to the Euro 6 standards for trucks and buses being vastly more strict then the totally watered down standards for cars.

And yes those buses and trucks have been independently verified with on the road tests by the same organisation who revealed the VW Dieselgate situation.

Per passenger buses are the clearest form of transport, bar electric trains (DART/Luas). Yes they are even cleaner then EV's per passenger, given the grid production.

So there are much bigger fish to fry before we turn our attention to buses and coaches.

BTW The NTA looked into buying hybrid and BEV buses, but given their limited budget, the overall amounts of pollution produced by the overall fleet is actually better reduced by buying new Euro 6 engine buses, rather then hybrids.

I realise that at first glance, that might not make sense, but when you look at the details, you can see their point. At the moment, the NTA has the budget to buy 100 new Dublin Bus buses per year. These new Euro 6 engined buses replace the oldest buses in the DB fleet, which use vastly more polluting Euro 4 engines.

If the buy hybrids instead, then they would only be able to afford to buy about 70 of them for the same money.

100 Euro 6's replacing 100 Euro 4's reduces pollution more overall, then 70 hybrids replacing only 70 Euro 4's.

Plus you get other benefits of a overall younger fleet, which is thus more reliable and thus more people are attracted to public transport. Which of course is better for the environment too.

Of course if we had unlimited money, then we would go hybrid and BEV overnight, but that just isn't realistic.

Having said all that, once the NTA has replaced all the DB Euro 4 buses with Euro 6 models, I fully exopect them to start getting Hybrids, specially as the price for them is starting to come down quiet a bit. But we are still about 4 or 5 years from that point.

BTW once you start looking into all of this, it really is quiet shocking how the German government had the Euro 6's standards so watered down for cars.

n97 mini

CNG powered buses are only marginally more expensive than diesels, so instead of 100 new diesel buses they could buy 80 CNG. The actual running costs of CNG are lower so they will pay for themselves in time.

I'd like to see average loadings per bus, counting off-peak and positioning movements ("Out of Service"). I would imagine the average loadings are not that high.

Same with diesel trains. I have been on a Saturday evening train from the midlands to Dublin where I was the only passenger!

You have to remember that Euro 6 still permits PM, and there is no safe level of PM.

Water John

At least, the programme started a discussion.

bk

n97 mini wrote: »

CNG powered buses are only marginally more expensive than diesels, so instead of 100 new diesel buses they could buy 80 CNG. The actual running costs of CNG are lower so they will pay for themselves in time.

The problem is the buses are bought and owned by the NTA, but the fuel is paid for by Dublin Bus.

So no, the buses wouldn't pay for themselves, the NTA would see no savings from the reduction in fuel costs.

Of course DB would love to get free buses, which in turn were cheaper to fuel, but it wouldn't benefit the owners of the bus.

Also the old Euro 4's are so vastly more polluting then the Euro's 6 that even those 20 missing Euro 6's would mean your fleet of 80 CNG's + 20 Euro 4's would be more polluting then 100 Euro 6's.

And then you have the big capital cost of installing CNG storage and pumping facilities in a depot. Money that would need to come from somewhere and would buy you even more Euro 6's

Oh and Wrights, who DB buy their buses from don't build any CNG buses, it is more of a US thing then a EU thing. Hybrid are definitely coming from EU manufacturers though.

This is why fleet management is hard, it isn't at all as obvious as you might think.

Either way you would get VASTLY more environmental benefit from replacing those 20,000 Diesel taxis with petrol hybrids and BEV's then you would get from looking at DB buses.

Let me put it another way. A Diesel Taxi is twice as polluting as a Dublin Bus bus. A DB bus costs 400,000. You could buy 13 Ioniq's or 5 Tesla Model S for the same money and you would have a 10 to 23 times more reduction in pollution then replacing the DB bus with a BEV (assuming a replacement exists, it doesn't and it cost the same, they don't, way more).

n97 mini wrote: »

I'd like to see average loadings per bus, counting off-peak and positioning movements ("Out of Service"). I would imagine the average loadings are not that high.

Off peak, only 40% of the DB fleet is out and operating, the rest are parked in the depots. Off Peak loadings are actually pretty high. If you head over to the C&T forum you will find a thread with people complaining about being left behind at bus stops as full buses pass by at off-peak times.

If anything DB are a little too stingy off peak, and probably need to increase capacity a bit.

Out of Service doesn't happen that much, there are usually just buses making the relatively short return to the nearest depot after the peaks.

It really isn't in DB's interested to run empty buses, fuel is their second highest cost after staff and they are making big efforts to reduce it as it saves them money.

n97 mini wrote: »

Same with diesel trains. I have been on a Saturday evening train from the midlands to Dublin where I was the only passenger!

Yes, intercity trains are more difficult then buses, they often have to travel long distances in order to get back to depots and starting points for busy peak services. Unfortunately the nature of the beast.

Having said that, reports that have looked into the overall usage of trains still finds them one of the most environmentally friendly forms of transport even with low off peak usage. Their on-peak efficiency more then makes up for low off-peak numbers.

You have to look at the big picture, the overall numbers, not just individual services.

n97 mini wrote: »

You have to remember that Euro 6 still permits PM, and there is no safe level of PM.

Yes, it does. But you also have to be realistic and pick your battles.

Every Euro 6 bus that replaces a Euro 4 bus is a massive reduction in NOX and PM's.

Every person who is attracted out of their Diesel car and into a Euro 6 bus or train is a massive reduction in pollution.

Sure if we found a pot of gold in the morning, we could build Metro North, Dart underground, electrify the intercity train lines, build a massive charging network and switch all buses to Hybrids and BEV's Unfortunately we are still looking for that pot of gold.

For now better to focus on getting rid of the most polluting forms of transport and closing those damn peat and coal burning power stations :mad:

unkel

Let me guess what fuel goes into Alan Nolan's car...

Calahonda52

can't see this getting past the NBU, given the fact that they scuppered the middle doors in the buses all those years ago.

n97 mini

bk wrote: »

Also the old Euro 4's are so vastly more polluting then the Euro's 6 that even those 20 missing Euro 6's would mean your fleet of 80 CNG's + 20 Euro 4's would be more polluting then 100 Euro 6's.

Flawed argument as you're looking at that as a single year in isolation.

Replace 80 buses a year with CNG and after 13 years PM is gone, and sometime before that your overall PM is lower than a full Euro 6 fleet. Replace Euro 4 with Euro 6 over 10 years and PM is still a problem.

bk

n97 mini wrote: »

Flawed argument as you're looking at that as a single year in isolation.

Replace 80 buses a year with CNG and after 13 years PM is gone, and sometime before that your overall PM is lower than a full Euro 6 fleet. Replace Euro 4 with Euro 6 over 10 years and PM is still a problem.

No I'm not, I'm looking over the complete life of the fleet.

Those Euro 4's are so much more polluting, that those 20 extra staying in the fleet for 13 extra years destroys any savings you'd gain from 80 CNG's.

At the moment, DB buses are replaced at a rate of 100 per year. With your numbers you switch to 80 per year. But that means every year during those 12 years, an extra 20 Euro 4's stay in the fleet.

Year 1 that is 20 extra Euro 4's staying in the fleet
Year 2 that is a cumulative 40 extra Euro 4's staying in the fleet
Year 3 that is a cumulative 60 extra Euro 4's staying in the fleet, etc.

And again you are ignoring the very practical problem that it is almost impossible to buy CNG buses in Europe.

CNG is a largely failed tech for buses, in New York City they have replaced most of their CNG buses with Diesels! They are now looking to transition those to hybrid and electric, but CNG certainly isn't the slam dunk you seem to think it is.

And it is all a horrible distraction from the real problem.

There are 1000 Dublin Buses, meanwhile there are about 1 million Diesel cars in Ireland, all pumping out at least twice the amount of NOX and PM's as each of those buses!!

Water John

In trying to get to zero carbon, on the transport side, which is one of the most difficult energy supply issues to solve, solving the cars is much more important and feasible, than heavy vehicles.
EV is the main solution for cars and is nearly there in terms of cars, at a reasonable cost, able to do a day's driving on one charge or a small 20 min top up.
There is now a prototype agricultural electric tractor doing 4 hours. But the main alternative looks like artificial diesel type fuel.

I've no objection to using hydrogen for HGV use, just build a couple of Nuke plants and you have true zero emissions and also to power transport and heat homes.

It's an excellent solution only our grid is so messed up with too much wind energy that Nuclear wouldn't be possible on our grid but it could be used to produce hydrogen. As far as mankind is concerned Nuclear power is practically unlimited and we should use it.

The potential for Thorium is huge.

KCross

Deleted User wrote: »

I've no objection to using hydrogen for HGV use, just build a couple of Nuke plants and you have true zero emissions and also to power transport and heat homes.

It's an excellent solution only our grid is so messed up with too much wind energy that Nuclear wouldn't be possible on our grid but it could be used to produce hydrogen. As far as mankind is concerned Nuclear power is practically unlimited and we should use it.

The potential for Thorium is huge.

Can you see a Nuke plant being built in this country?

Water charges upset people here, you can imagine if there was a nuke plant being built!

The nimby'ism would be brutal and the funding beyond our capability, imo.

We just need to tap off nuclear energy from other countries via better interconnectors.

Water John

Well nuclear is also used in many positive ways. I would be opposed to traditional nuclear plant models.
Thorium Molten Salt is quite different. Self limiting so no danger of leakage or over heating. Plant can also be much smaller and also cheaper as it doesn't need to dome shield.
It is also variable and an thus an excellent blend with renewable energies, which should be given priority on the system.
Any carbon neutral solution will require a massive increase in electrical generation, possible present X 4.

Also very little waste and that waste has relatively short half life.

MSR's are the distant future though is ever, but if the research was put into MSR years ago the world could be a lot different today.

Today we have the technology to use this abundant supply, though not 99% efficient as MSR's but the power to do much more than just power electric grid for what we do today.

stesaurus

Same discussion re Prime Time in the main motors forum. Interesting to see the difference in discussion.

Water John

MSR will be mainstream by the time we get around to looking for it.
It's variability is also very desirable compared to other nuclear plant, which is also too large, costly and too long to build. Not to mind the objections.

BorneTobyWilde

Diesel engine is fine, it's the muck it runs on that is issue. Why is there no way to further refine the fuel into a less harmful one.
They do it in states with GDiesel .
http://imap.taxadmin.org/fta/meet/11_mf/pres/Weide.pdf

Not even the option here to run a diesel car on a less harmful fuel.

We also have HVO fuel, another drop in fuel,

Water John

Whilst the gases being reduced is good, there is no mention of particle matter which is the biggest problem from diesel.

KCross

stesaurus wrote: »

Same discussion re Prime Time in the main motors forum. Interesting to see the difference in discussion.

Its an interesting insight alright. Its just a big moan fest really and people not wanting to give up their diesels.

They didn't like the cut of your jib coming in with your EV talk!

You were right though, the same mistruths being peddled again about EV's. The general population just look at the range figure and rule EV out on that basis, eventhough a lot of them don't actually need the range. Not sure what the solution is to that other than wait for the longer range EV's to appear but no doubt those long range EV's will be expensive so uptake will continue to be slow.

BorneTobyWilde

City trucks and buses should use CNG engines

http://www.recyclingwasteworld.co.uk/products/city-of-madrid-opts-for-natural-gas-powered-iveco-stralis-rcvs/148251/

Iveco have buses, semi trucks, vans, so on all on CNG

BorneTobyWilde

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Diesel engine is fine, it's the muck it runs on that is issue. Why is there no way to further refine the fuel into a less harmful one.
They do it in states with GDiesel .
http://imap.taxadmin.org/fta/meet/11_mf/pres/Weide.pdf

Not even the option here to run a diesel car on a less harmful fuel.

We also have HVO fuel, another drop in fuel,

It would be impossible to filter out the harmful emissions completely. Diesel has had it's day.

We should have been driving Hybrids 10-15 years ago.

It also takes a lot of energy to refine petrol and diesel and and then you have to transport that to the petrol stations and then it's burned in an engine at only about 30% efficiency max at optimum conditions mind you, often a lot less. Electrics are up to 80% efficient and can use any renewable or alternative source on the grid and more and more renewable energy is being added to the Grid.

Water John

Well if a newer battery comes along with a different weight to power ratio, then that will be a big game changer both for cars and commercials.
Energy source switches rapidly then to the grid.

zilog_jones

n97 mini wrote: »

Very easy to deal with the taxis: all newly registered taxis must be petrol/electric hybrids or EVs (London is doing this).

This almost seems to be happening naturally - I've noticed significant increase of hybrid taxis in the past 2-3 years, probably as cheap Japanese/UK import early 3rd gen Prius and Honda Insights (both new in 2009) are coming onto the market. I wonder how much of this shift is down to the increased reliability issues with modern diesels? I've heard many people (not even taxi drivers) trying to get away from diesels due to issues (DPF and the other acronyms) in recent years.

EV taxis are still a niche though - I guess there would need to be charging points at taxi ranks to make this a serious alternative, as we know certain EV taxi owners in the country have become a nuisance hogging public chargers.

ELM327

Awful lot of rubbish being posted on this topic in the non "EV" motors forum

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057738083&page=14

stesaurus

ELM327 wrote: »

Awful lot of rubbish being posted on this topic in the non "EV" motors forum

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057738083&page=14

Cavalry charge!!!!

KCross

Sometimes I wonder if its even worth responding to some of the sh*te that is posted. One of the main protagonists on that thread reiterated the same arguments again today after those arguments were debunked with real stats on this forum only a few days ago. What do you do!

If they are really convinced that EV is evil and diesel is better then let them off. They can join us when the govt tax them into it. Trying logical arguments is wasted energy on some of them unfortunately.

I'll happily help those that come to the EV forum as they usually already have an open mind and just need some facts presented.

unkel

KCross wrote: »

They can join us when the govt tax them into it.

Shefwedfan

I wouldn't bother to be honest. People will only change to EV if they want to....

Two years ago if you asked me I would have said you are mad....

Not sure why but I just got the idea into my head. To be honest since I have bought the car a good few people have started to become interested as well....

Majority of people are still at the stage I was 2 years ago, plus you will always have the people that will never change off a 2ltr diesel engine....even if they are paying a fortune.....

The amount of information in the press in the last 6 months versus the previous 2-3 years is massive. As more people see this more people will move.

The main issue I do see in Ireland is the lack of choice compared to diesel. You will not move large numbers of people off diesel/petrol with Leaf as an option....you need options like Ioniq(with supply), e-Golf, Tesla etc.

tedpan

I've been saying this for years.. Everything went quiet pretty quickly after the VW scandal. People still bought VWs along with many other diesel cars. Governments will do tests within the next few years and realise the harmful emissions. They will then force people to buy petrol and electric vehicles again with tax hikes etc.

Can't stand the taste of a diesel driving by. Pure poison..

goz83

tedpan wrote: »

Can't stand the taste of a diesel driving by. Pure poison..

I hate it too. Would regularly bring daughter to pre-school and I cross a main road where the pedestrian lights can take a couple of minutes to change. The stink of diesel from 95% of passing vehicles is disgusting.

unkel

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Two years ago if you asked me I would have said you are mad....

Same here. But two years ago it was a very different ballgame. Just one simple issue, there were no reasonable price EVs that could transport my family of 5 comfortably.

Drove a Leaf last year, but it was simply too small for the kids in the back and the range is not suitable for my driving style (fast on motorways). Price was very good though. Then the Ioniq came along, reviews looked good, car looked decent (it did not like an EV), did some sums, price was very good, I was the first to book a 24h test drive in the biggest Hyundai dealer in the country, car suited our needs and I bought it the next day

Bigus

KCross wrote: »

Sometimes I wonder if its even worth responding to some of the sh*te that is posted. One of the main protagonists on that thread reiterated the same arguments again today after those arguments were debunked with real stats on this forum only a few days ago. What do you do!

If they are really convinced that EV is evil and diesel is better then let them off. They can join us when the govt tax them into it. Trying logical arguments is wasted energy on some of them unfortunately.

I'll happily help those that come to the EV forum as they usually already have an open mind and just need some facts presented.

There's So much ignorance in there, that I retreated for a good few years from general Motors forum into the classic car forum after I was berated for trying to inform the General Motors form how good a Prius was back in 2006.

I'm just delighted that big oil is f?cked and I can't wait to see the Saudis eating sand agin just like their grandfathers predicted their grandchildren would do.

unkel

Bigus wrote: »

inform the General Motors form how good a Prius was back in 2006.

If only it had been an EV. Toyota bosses would be laughing now instead of crying

n97 mini

We bought our first hybrid in 2006, our second in 2007. I left the motors forum a year later. Hateful place. People on there who never drove one telling me I should have bought BMW inline 6 or a VW TD (red) I instead. Go fsck yourselves!

n97 mini

Although having said that it's a small, tight community on here, which makes it good. No random single marque fanboys (apart from Unkel ), but how long will that last?

ELM327

n97 mini wrote: »

Although having said that it's a small, tight community on here, which makes it good. No random single marque fanboys (apart from Unkel ), but how long will that last?

Arent we all Tesla fanboys at heart though?:cool:

unkel

n97 mini wrote: »

Although having said that it's a small, tight community on here, which makes it good. No random single marque fanboys (apart from Unkel ), but how long will that last?

Oi!

I gave up my last BMW last October

Sabre Man

Volvo Cars says new generation of diesel engines could be the last - CEO
http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-volvocars-diesel-idUKKCN18D0NF

TBi

n97 mini wrote: »

People on there who never drove one telling me I should have bought BMW inline 6

To be fair a straight 6 BM is a thing of beauty. Lovely addictive sound from it. Then again i prefer the addictive whine from the electric motor in my i3, that's FAR better and more addictive for me.

Have a 318d while the i3 is getting it's air bag sorted. My god is that an awful sounding engine...

zilog_jones

Shefwedfan wrote: »

The main issue I do see in Ireland is the lack of choice compared to diesel. You will not move large numbers of people off diesel/petrol with Leaf as an option....you need options like Ioniq(with supply), e-Golf, Tesla etc.

Yes, that was my problem when looking at changing cars last year - the only reasonable option for something 3-4 years old was the Leaf, and I just didn't think the range was good enough but also don't really like it as a car (wanted something bigger mainly). A lot of people these days also like crossover SUVs where there's no non-luxury EV option there.

unkel wrote: »

If only it had been an EV. Toyota bosses would be laughing now instead of crying

Toyota did try with the RAV4 EV in 1997, but due to patent shenanigans (essentially Chevron had control over production of large Ni-MH batteries for many years) it pretty much killed that off (also the GM EV1) and set back EV development for a good 10-15 years. Toyota may be behind with BEVs now, but with their continuous development of hybrids they're now nearly in a position where they can have a diesel-free passenger car lineup - that's something, at least.

Bigus wrote: »

There's So much ignorance in there, that I retreated for a good few years from general Motors forum into the classic car forum after I was berated for trying to inform the General Motors form how good a Prius was back in 2006.

In all fairness the 2nd gen Prius was a bit of a hard sell - not a particularly pretty car, not great performance, and the fuel economy at motorway speeds generally worse than an equivalent diesel. But they've come a long way since then, and the current Prius can easily match or surpass typical 4-cylinder diesels in every aspect. And now so many people have been burned by reliability issues with modern diesels, it's a much more convincing option.

n97 mini

TBi wrote: »

To be fair a straight 6 BM is a thing of beauty. Lovely addictive sound from it

I never got that. A straight 6 is perfectly balanced so quite refined. There's a reason why muscle cars used V8s!

Two cars in this video, I know which one I'd have, and it's not the one that does corners! When he drops the hammer at 0:38 and again at 0:53

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7m7fngTdMo

Now that's an addictive sound.

Fireball14013

n97 mini wrote: »

I never got that. A straight 6 is perfectly balanced so quite refined. There's a reason why muscle cars used V8s!

Two cars in this video, I know which one I'd have, and it's not the one that does corners! When he drops the hammer at 0:38 and again at 0:53

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7m7fngTdMo

Now that's an addictive sound.

They're both V8's in that, and both quite different sounds. You're right though, that American V8 does sound the business.

BoatMad

Fireball14013 wrote: »

They're both V8's in that, and both quite different sounds. You're right though, that American V8 does sound the business.

When I lived in the states , I owned a few old muscle cars. ( including a c3 vette ) Great in a straight line , complete sh1t around corners

As for brakes Forget it

TBi

n97 mini wrote: »

I never got that. A straight 6 is perfectly balanced so quite refined. There's a reason why muscle cars used V8s!

Two cars in this video, I know which one I'd have, and it's not the one that does corners! When he drops the hammer at 0:38 and again at 0:53



Now that's an addictive sound.

I had a V8 too. Lovely sound out of it. The straight 6 is much nicer to listen to than a 4 pot. Not as addictive as a v8 but still great. Defo better than any diesel.