Infraction for Legal Advice

Little CuChulainn

I'd like to appeal my Infraction in Legal Discussion. I have already appealed to a moderator.

A poster described an event that happened and I told the poster what kind of charges they could potentially face and that they should get a solicitor. This is an extremely strict interpretation of the rule against legal advice and not an interpretation that is usually applied on the forum or even in the same thread.

Toots

Hi Little CuChulainn, I'll look at this for you. Can you please forward or post here any PMs that you sent/received in relation to this?

Thanks!

Little CuChulainn

I sent them there. Please let me know if you got them as my network cut out during the send.

As I said, this is a pretty harsh interpretation for the rule against legal advice and not one that seems to be applied with any kind of consistency. I was merely pointing out how serious the situation was and advising them to get a solicitor. In the same thread another poster advises the op to delete their post to avoid incriminating themselves. This is actual legal advise but is deemed ok.

All you have to do is look at the threads on the front page to see how harsh this card is. I count six threads where ops are literally asking for advice on real situations and getting it yet there is no problem. Hullaballoo says they cannot monitor every thread and I understand this but in one of these threads two of the moderators give advice themselves.

If they want to go with such a strict interpretation of the rule then that's obviously their choice but it should surely be somehow consistent to be fair.

Toots

Thanks for that, I got them there. I'll have a look into it and post back here when I have a decision, or if I need to clarify anything.

Toots

Sorry for the delay in coming back to this, it's been a difficult one for me to come to a decision on.

I understand that on the surface of it, an infraction seems harsh, however the "No Legal Advice" is pretty much the most important rule on the Legal Discussion forum, and is also the one that's enforced most stringently. The bit that's applicable to your post is in bold below:

Legal discussion is permitted. However, requests for legal advice or the provision of legal advice is not. A request for legal advice is defined as a specific request for legal advice, assistance or interpretation which is or is intended to be applicable to a specified real-life scenario. The provision of legal advice is defined as the giving of legal advice, assistance or interpretation which is or is intended to be applicable to a specified real-life scenario.

What you posted was "Get a solicitor. You're potentially facing charges of 'x', 'y' and 'z'." The "get a solicitor" bit was grand, it was detailing what charges the OP was potentially facing that is in breach of the charter. I understand that your intention was to point out the seriousness of their situation, however there's a difference between saying "This is a serious situation, you need to get a solicitor." - any randomer could figure that out, but the specific charges wouldn't be something just anyone would be aware of, which is why that would be considered legal/professional advice.

In this instance, I'm upholding the infraction.

Little CuChulainn

Toots wrote: »

Sorry for the delay in coming back to this, it's been a difficult one for me to come to a decision on.

I understand that on the surface of it, an infraction seems harsh, however the "No Legal Advice" is pretty much the most important rule on the Legal Discussion forum, and is also the one that's enforced most stringently. The bit that's applicable to your post is in bold below:



What you posted was "Get a solicitor. You're potentially facing charges of 'x', 'y' and 'z'." The "get a solicitor" bit was grand, it was detailing what charges the OP was potentially facing that is in breach of the charter. I understand that your intention was to point out the seriousness of their situation, however there's a difference between saying "This is a serious situation, you need to get a solicitor." - any randomer could figure that out, but the specific charges wouldn't be something just anyone would be aware of, which is why that would be considered legal/professional advice.

In this instance, I'm upholding the infraction.

Why is it not the same strict interpretation in almost every other thread? Even in the same thread there is legal advice that is more direct. It's completely unfair to apply a rule so erratically.

Toots

The question at hand here is did what you posted break the rules, and unfortunately it did, and you got an infraction. Now if you feel there's an issue with that rule not being applied consistently, that's something that would need to be raised in the Help Desk.

As I said, in this instance I'm upholding the infraction. If you wish, you can request an Admin review.

Little CuChulainn

Yes I would like an admin review on the grounds that it is unfair to expect a poster to comply with a rule when what is deemed compliant is interpreted so arbitrarily.

Toots

Grand so, I'll request an Admin review on this.

Little CuChulainn

Thanks. Just to clarify my position, I'm aware how difficult it is to enforce a rule consistently on a busy forum. But there does need to be a degree of consistency so posters know what is and isn't allowed. I can't find any other examples of this rule being interpreted so strictly. Even in the same thread there is more direct legal advice given to the poster about not incriminating themselves. A read through the open topics on the first few pages will show multiple posts where posters are giving advice and interpreting law. There's even a thread where a person states they received a summons and asks "what should I do" and they get answers. To illustrate my point, I can't see how my post differs so greatly to these posts made by the moderator who infracted me. They all contain interpretations of what the legal consequences might be.

hullaballoo wrote: »

Most sensible people would regards giving yourself every opportunity available to avoid a criminal record and 5+ penalty points as money well spent.

It's not just a matter of cost of solicitor vs cost of fine. Your insurance premium will be greatly affected by such a conviction with that level of points.

Tbh, that kind of advice is totally reckless.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=103024484&postcount=3

As above, get down to a solicitor asap to get this dealt with. Loss of eyesight is very serious and that kind of injury can have long-term complications.

You could lose out by failing to act straight away.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=102974697&postcount=98

That does not mean they can get both the fare paid plus the entirety of the fare that ought to have been paid. That's what they appear to be looking for here.

OP, just to confirm, you are going to a solicitor in relation to this yes?

My intention here is not to complain about moderation but to point out that I had no intention to break any rule. I posted in a manner I thought was acceptable given what was acceptable elsewhere throughout the forum and what has been posted by moderators themselves. This is based on my many years using this particular forum. Telling someone that they may have committed an assault by grabbing someone or criminal damage by tearing their clothing is an extremely strict interpretation of "legal advice" and seems more like common sense to me. Even if you take it as legal advice, I'm not sure how it would have induced the poster to do anything other than go to a solicitor, which is what I suggested they do. At best, this infraction is a case of implementing the letter of the law and ignoring the spirit of it.

Little CuChulainn

Anything further on this?

Toots

Sorry for the delay on this, I'll give it a bump.

Taltos

Sorry for the delay give me some more time to read into it and make a decision.

Taltos

Hi Little CuChullainn

Again sorry for taking so long.
First up when I first saw this I have to admit I thought it was too strict of a mod action, I really did.

But then I looked into it and the forum a bit more and having read the rules there I have to support that the infraction stands.
I can see that you were posting in good faith with no maliciousness however, while you might not agree that you were offering legal advice you did. Think about it this way, the mods have the rules in place as its too easy for a non-professional like me to interpret someone's actions incorrectly and give my opinion, and I'd be happy to do that with no thought to the impact that might have on someone potentially facing charges, in some cases it could result in that person making a poor choice and doing something that normally they would not consider.

In terms of the rest of your arguments above, as you know that is not the purpose of DRF, that's the realm for the helpdesk, however, looking at the logs I can see similar actions being taken and similarly posts removed so it would be transparent. You are always going to find examples where action was not taken, but the mods can only action what they either see or what has been reported, and in some instances action will have been taken behind the scenes.

Again sorry for taking so long here, but as always please do engage with the local mods to discuss any cards and to see if you both can come to an agreement or understanding.