Witnesses to car crash with Gardai required [Dublin city 7 years ago]

ThirstyWerk

Hi,
I wondered if anyone might have witnessed a car accident with the Gardai that occurred between 6 and 7 pm in central Dublin on 30th April, 2010. I know that this is almost a full 7 years after the incident but I thought it would do no harm to ask anyway! 
The Details ..
The accident occurred at the junction of the SCR and Victoria Street (Portobello area) just short of the one-way system around Harcourt St./Richmond St./Bleeding Horse pub. An unmarked Garda car was travelling at speed inbound along the SCR toward the one-way system mentioned above with no blue lights or sirens in operation. Their vehicle impacted my car at high speed at the SCR/Victoria St junction. My car was thrown 30 feet through the air and ended up embedded in the railings of No 31/29 SCR. Their unmarked patrol vehicle then smashed into the railings plinth right beside my car at No 31 SCR. Both cars were completely written off in the accident, and the railings were very badly damaged. 
The Gardai at the scene assured me they were completely responsible for the accident because their driver was untrained, and had de-activated his emergency lights and sirens prior to the impact because he was having difficulty contacting his control room on the garda radio. They said that I would have to make a legal claim against them to have my resultant expenses addressed. However, when I finally received the internal garda report about the accident (some 6.5 years later) they have painted a very different picture in which they now had their lights and sirens in operation and that I wasn't indicating my intention to turn right into Victoria St. This is completely untrue and they are fully aware of this. The street was crowded with pedestrians at the time, and there would have been plenty of witnesses to the accident. Indeed, one man approached me at the scene to say he saw everything and would be happy to be a witness. Mug that I was, and totally believing that the Gardai would be honest about the matter, I sent my witness to the investigating Garda at the scene to supply his details. I saw my witness approach the investigating Garda and having a conversation with him. However, the Gardai are now saying that they could not find any witnesses to the accident on the crowded street, not even the witness I guided in their direction!! If anyone remembers this accident on the Friday before the May Day Bank Holiday weekend in 2010 please contact me on this thread. It will be the 7th anniversary of the accident this coming Friday.

bear1

You really need to get legal advice.
Judging by the description of the accident it shouldn't be something someone would forgot easily I'd imagine.
It's going to be hard going after the police but seems strange to me that the conclusion took 6.5 years.
Seriously though get straight onto a lawyer.

ThirstyWerk

Hi Bear1,
thanks for your reply. I contacted my solicitors immediately and I have full legal representation in play since early May 2010. It took the 6.5 years just to legally acquire the disclosure documentation from the Gardai as they were extremely reluctant to part with the information. It took a High Court Order to finally dislodge the paperwork from their grasp.
It seems that they are counting on the fact that it is now almost 7 years ago and they seem to be betting on the notion that it will be too long ago for people to remember. You are correct - anyone who saw this accident would never forget it. I'm hoping that the people of Dublin have much longer and more detailed memories than the Gardai give us credit for!

mickdw

That whole situation is disgraceful but I don't fancy your chances unless you can come up with something concrete.

Mech1

I would advise that you dont directly communicate with any witnesses if you find them. instead immediatly direct to your legal rep.

vicwatson

6.5 years :eek:

I suppose they've been very busy doing other things.

bear1

What's the statute of limitations out of curiosity? Must be pretty close to it by now?
Long shot but maybe go back to the scene and see if any establishments have cctv. Seriously be surprised if it would work out but maybe ask if they keep tapes from that period.

rubberdungeon

Broadcaster, Gerry Ryan died that day afaik if that helps to remind people of the day.

jimbis

What about posting a few notices at that junction? Not sure how that works legally.
Also long shot but contacting taxi/courier companies.

ThirstyWerk

Sorry, I had to go out for a while. Many thanks for all your posts. Some good ideas suggested that I will follow up on. The case was started in 2010 so I don't think the statute of limitation applies afaik, but will verify that with the solicitors tomorrow. They did hit me from behind, and I have excellent photographs of the scene. I would really like to find an actual eyewitness though. I will be following Mech1's advice and directing any witnesses that might be discovered to my legal team. Thanks again folks.

bear1

They hit you from behind? I wonder under which illusion are they saying it's your fault then?

Miike

bear1 wrote: »

They hit you from behind? I wonder under which illusion are they saying it's your fault then?

I assume their defence is him not indicating however to the best of my knowledge that has no bearing on an accident when you've been hit from behind as they didn't exercise due caution?

humberklog

I might have missed it in your post OP but you might want to mention the cars involved.

Cop car was silver mondeo and yours a blue fiesta iirc?

FitzElla

The statue of limitations is 2 years. I presume you have already initiated civil proceedings? Makes no sense that liability would be an issue if they hit you from behind. Best of luck with it anyway.

bear1

FitzElla wrote: »

The statue of limitations is 2 years. I presume you have already initiated civil proceedings? Makes no sense that liability would be an issue if they hit you from behind. Best of luck with it anyway.

It's a civil case so 6 years.

FitzElla

bear1 wrote: »

It's a civil case so 6 years.

Unless something has changed very recently it was always 2 years for personal injury resulting from negligence, nuisance, or breach of duty - except if they were a minor at the time.

Miike

He has had legal representation from the get-go. The statue of limitations is the time which you have to begin proceedings.

loyatemu

rubberdungeon wrote: »

Broadcaster, Gerry Ryan died that day afaik if that helps to remind people of the day.

I'd have thought witnessing a car thrown 30 feet into the air and landing on iron railings would stick in the mind too.

shar01

Would it be worthwhile calling into businesses / offices in area in the hope that a staff member there remembers.

ScumLord

What about the insurance companies? Would they have required details at the time and made their own assessment?

I love Sean nos

ThirstyWerk wrote: »

they have painted a very different picture in which they now had their lights and sirens in operation and that I wasn't indicating my intention to turn right into Victoria St. This is completely untrue and they are fully aware of this

ThirstyWerk wrote: »

However, the Gardai are now saying that they could not find any witnesses to the accident on the crowded street, not even the witness I guided in their direction!!

GSOC.

Fred Swanson

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Galadriel

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

The OP stated he started the case in 2010.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

ThirstyWerk

Hi All,
Thanks again for your may useful observations. With respect to some of these ..
humberklog (Moderator) - post #13: wrote .. I might have missed it in your post OP but you might want to mention the cars involved. Cop car was silver mondeo and yours a blue fiesta iirc?
Hi humberklog, I wanted to hold back the details about specific vehicle types of colours etc. to allow for some basic sanity check questions for anyone who might come forward with pertinent information. Do you think this is wise?

shar01 (User) - post #19: wrote .. Would it be worthwhile calling into businesses / offices in area in the hope that a staff member there remembers.
Good idea shar01, but I already printed fliers seeking witnesses and in 2015 delivered to every residence and business along the SCR in the relevant area. I have never heard anything back unfortunately. I also talked to the owner of the only newsagent in the immediate vicinity with CCTV on their shopfront in the slim chance that CCTV footage might still be available, or a member of staff might remember the incident - but no joy I'm afraid. Thanks though for this excellent suggestion.

ScumLord (Moderator) - post #20: wrote .. What about the insurance companies? Would they have required details at the time and made their own assessment?
Another good idea ScumLord, I have dug out the contact details for the actual AXA representative whom I talked to 4 days after the collision. I will contact the party agin next week to see if I can access her notes on my description of the incident just 4 days afterwards. This should help to demonstrate consistency, because my version of events has remained constant throughout the 7 year period. I do have other email correspondence from the days immediately following that relay exactly the same version of events, but it would be useful to augment these with the notes by the AXA representative. I also wrote a detailed description of the series of events as I remembered them within days of the RTA. This has proved to be invaluable over time. Thank you for your thoughts on this matter.

I love Sean nos (User) - post #21: wrote .. GSOC.
Hi "I love Sean nos", I'm going to contact my solicitors and the GSOC next week to lodge a complaint about the subsequent written reports pertaining of the events immediately before and after the collision. I thought that my legal team had already contacted the GSOC at the beginning of the case, but I have reviewed my emails from the period and can find no acual written reference to contacts made with GSOC. There is a 1 year time limit during which complaints should be registered. However, the objectionable report by the scene of incident officer did not come into my possession until early October 2016, so I hope that the GSOC may accept my complaint on this basis. Many thanks for this excellent suggestion.

ironclaw

Did you damage any public property as a result of the crash? E.g. ESB cables, eircom lines, water mains? Long shot but if you did, the ESB (and similar bodies) are called upon to make the area safe before extraction of the property, hence they would not have been touched in the interim. They would also have a record of the call out and the nature of it. The crews have been called upon to give evidence before. The position of the cars would help your legal position I would imagine. Not much, but a possible lead.

Hey OP, just wondering, given the seriousness of the crash, was it not investigated at the time? Surely Gardai & ambulance were called?
Usually a sergeant has to go to RTCs involving official vehicles.

ThirstyWerk

ironclaw wrote: »

Did you damage any public property as a result of the crash? E.g. ESB cables, eircom lines, water mains? Long shot but if you did, the ESB (and similar bodies) are called upon to make the area safe before extraction of the property, hence they would not have been touched in the interim. They would also have a record of the call out and the nature of it. The crews have been called upon to give evidence before. The position of the cars would help your legal position I would imagine. Not much, but a possible lead.

The only property damaged were both vehicles which were insurance write-offs, the cast iron fences of 29/31 SCR, and a black bollard on the edge of the pavement which the Garda vehicle struck between their 1st and 2nd impacts. It seems that this bollard saved my life because when the front right bumper of the Garda vehicle struck it, it smashed into many pieces (that I assume flew through the air like shrapnel) but it was enough to impede their RHS progress and spun their car just a few degrees to the right and they then impacted the plinth of the railing about a meter to the right of the drivers side of my smashed vehicle. Had this not happened I expect that their car would have impacted the driver's side of my vehicle with all of their remaining momentum which was significant. The bollard could not be located subsequently AFAIK.

ThirstyWerk

bubblypop wrote: »

Hey OP, just wondering, given the seriousness of the crash, was it not investigated at the time? Surely Gardai & ambulance were called?
Usually a sergeant has to go to RTCs involving official vehicles.

bubblypop wrote: »

Hey OP, just wondering, given the seriousness of the crash, was it not investigated at the time? Surely Gardai & ambulance were called?
Usually a sergeant has to go to RTCs involving official vehicles.

Hi bubblypop, 
Yes the scene was managed by a sergeant. He arrived a short time after the impact. I found him to be a charismatic and credible character, and he admitted responsibility for the accident on behalf of AGS, and reassured me that the whole incident was entirely the fault of the young untrained Garda driver. Unfortunately his subsequent report misrepresented some of the events and statements made before, during, and after the impact.
Today is the 7th anniversary of the accident. I'm sure you can all judge for yourselves just how low and slanting the evening sun is between 6 and 7 pm at this time of year. I was travelling east along the SCR near portobello that day with this extremely strong sunlight coming from the west behind me. This strong sunlight completely filled my rear-view mirrors with glare. The truth is that the Garda car came flying out of this strong sunlight at an excessive speed on the wrong side of the road with no lights or sirens in operation. He was overtaking a string of several vehicles at the time and failed to notice my indications of my impending RH turn until it was too late. How many experienced drivers out their have not witnessed first-hand this totally rooky mistake? As if all this wasn't bad enough, it would appear that the emergency call that they were speeding toward at the time had already been resolved by the Garda at that scene some 5 minutes before they impacted my vehicle!

ThirstyWerk

The Gardai have since strengthened the rules around the driving of Garda vehicles (in 2014 I think). There are now 2 levels of training that a Garda must go through to be eligible to drive a Garda vehicle. This is eminently sensible. AFAIK a Garda must have undergone both levels to drive a Garda vehicle under this new system. I think that a Garda with level 1 can drive a Garda vehicle, but must adhere to the general rules of the road, and may not activate the emergency lights and sirens. I've read that if a level 1 Garda driver is observed breaking these rules then s/he can be docked a weeks wages.
Can anyone shed any light on the situation prior to the introduction of the new rules? The Garda driver in my case was completely untrained and  was driving on what was known as Chief's Permission for that single day. Were those Gardai driving on Chief's Permission also precluded from activating the emergency lights and sirens. Besides heavy Garda radio traffic on that day, I have often wondered if the Garda driver in question was turning off his sirens to prevent his radio control room from hearing them, to avoid forfeiting a week's pay. Any information would be greatly welcome.

There were no restrictions on the old driving on chiefs permission.
Was there no court case as a result? If there was no prosecution, did your insurance company not just claim from the state at the time?

ThirstyWerk

bubblypop wrote: »

There were no restrictions on the old driving on chiefs permission.
Was there no court case as a result? If there was no prosecution, did your insurance company not just claim from the state at the time?

Thanks for that information which is useful. 
The court case is imminent, so a ruling has yet been made. Unfortunately, more than my car was damaged during this impact. I incurred some serious spinal injuries that have left me in considerable pain everyday. To date I have undergone multiple epidural injections into my lower spine and, most recently, a spinal rhizotomy. I have been left with life-curtailing mobility issues, and symptoms of PTSD. The loss of my vehicle is the least of my problems.

Miike

ThirstyWerk wrote: »

Thanks for that information which is useful. 
The court case is imminent, so a ruling has yet been made. Unfortunately, more than my car was damaged during this impact. I incurred some serious spinal injuries that have left me in considerable pain everyday. To date I have undergone multiple epidural injections into my lower spine and, most recently, a spinal rhizotomy. I have been left with life-curtailing mobility issues, and symptoms of PTSD. The loss of my vehicle is the least of my problems.

Jesus christ... money won't fix your problems but I hope you clean up.

ThirstyWerk

A fair and equitable settlement is all I need. Please share this discussion with your family and friends - Ireland is a small country. There must be dozens of witnesses out there. I just need to find 1 or 2. Many thanks again for all of your useful comments

ironclaw

ThirstyWerk wrote: »

A fair and equitable settlement is all I need. Please share this discussion with your family and friends - Ireland is a small country. There must be dozens of witnesses out there. I just need to find 1 or 2. Many thanks again for all of your useful comments

Swing some of the news outlets a Tweet or email. Broadsheet is good for this sort of thing and would have a high readership in town.

I'd also swing a letter into each business in the area. 7 years ago would have had high emigration, someone might twig their colleague who now lives in Oz or NZ may have been around or spoken about it.

bear1

Not sure this was asked, but what happened to your car? Was it written off or repaired?
Surely to God the insurance company would have been seriously involved.

testicles

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ThirstyWerk

ironclaw wrote: »

ThirstyWerk wrote: »

A fair and equitable settlement is all I need. Please share this discussion with your family and friends - Ireland is a small country. There must be dozens of witnesses out there. I just need to find 1 or 2. Many thanks again for all of your useful comments

Swing some of the news outlets a Tweet or email. Broadsheet is good for this sort of thing and would have a high readership in town.

Great idea, but I didn't think a national news agency would publish the details. Do you think they would publish as a news item?

ThirstyWerk

bear1 wrote: »

Not sure this was asked, but what happened to your car? Was it written off or repaired?
Surely to God the insurance company would have been seriously involved.

Hi bear1, the car was taken into storage by the insurance company, and then subsequently scraped with my permission by the storage facility to defray some of the storage costs (which were becoming significant). The insurance company offered the book value of the car which I rejected because I had paid 3 times that amount just 2 years before. The insurance company were all over this, and I will be reaching out to them this week to try an source a copy of their initial notes around the claim. I know that their claim file for the incident remains open because the owners of 29/31 SCR have lodged a claim against my insurance/State insurance for the significant cost of repairing their railings. All of these issues will be settled during the court case I would assume.

Needles73

ThirstyWerk wrote: »

Hi bear1, the car was taken into storage by the insurance company, and then subsequently scraped with my permission by the storage facility to defray some of the storage costs (which were becoming significant). The insurance company offered the book value of the car which I rejected because I had paid 3 times that amount just 2 years before. The insurance company were all over this, and I will be reaching out to them this week to try an source a copy of their initial notes around the claim. I know that their claim file for the incident remains open because the owners of 29/31 SCR have lodged a claim against my insurance/State insurance for the significant cost of repairing their railings. All of these issues will be settled during the court case I would assume.

What value did you expect insurance company to offer you ? i.e what you paid 2 years previous is a bit irrelevant..,,look I hope you get this all sorted to your satisfaction, but this is one weird case

ThirstyWerk

The car was imported from the UK by the dealer I bought it from in Asbourne. It was very highly spec'ed - 6 cylinder rather than the standard 4, tiptronic steering wheel, cruise control, sunroof, fog lamps, full service history, 5 brand new tyres, and just taxed and NCT'ed. I still had about 14 monthly payments outstanding. I didn't want to settle for less than what I still had to pay for it! My solicitor advised me to include it in the claim. So I did.

GavMan

I may have missed it but can the occupants of 29/31 SCR at the time of the incident be located? Was there anyone there at the time? Did they hear anything?

Either way, I fail to see what the lights and sirens really have to do with anything. They hit you from the rear...

stesaurus

I'd be loathe to use it myself but sometimes needs must; FB post and try get as many shares going as possible. There must be witnesses out there. As long as the general tone of the post is Gardai bashing but still on the legal side of things and it will gain traction.

ThirstyWerk

stesaurus wrote: »

I'd be loathe to use it myself but sometimes needs must; FB post and try get as many shares going as possible. There must be witnesses out there. As long as the general tone of the post is Gardai bashing but still on the legal side of things and it will gain traction.

Thanks stesaurus

ThirstyWerk

DOH! Sorry stesaurus. Silly me. Please disregard my last comment/blonde moment - I asked what FB Post meant - I don't use Facebook alot!

humberklog

I think it's important to give details of cars involved. I walked past the incident as the Garda car was being loaded on to the truck. Your car was still "parked" in the garden but I remember it as a blue Fiesta but by your description in think your saying it was a BMW.
Memory's a funny thing.

beer enigma

Can you not request a copy of the information from the Gardai under the data Protection act ?

Surely your name must appear on their notes, in which case you can apply for disclosure & given the criteria I don't see they have a valid reason to decline.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/law_and_rights/access_to_garda_records.html

stesaurus

ThirstyWerk wrote: »

DOH! Sorry stesaurus. Silly me. Please disregard my last comment/blonde moment - I asked what FB Post meant - I don't use Facebook alot!

If you do go that route then post a link to your page up here. If a few of us share it on from that then who knows.

I'm not a FB fan either but sometimes it has its uses.

DesperateDan

Get this sh*t on Reddit too!

ThirstyWerk

humberklog wrote: »

I think it's important to give details of cars involved. I walked past the incident as the Garda car was being loaded on to the truck. Your car was still "parked" in the garden but I remember it as a blue Fiesta but by your description in think your saying it was a BMW.
Memory's a funny thing.

Hi  humberklog, in your first post (#13) you suggested that I supply the makes of the cars involved and then you sited 2 car types - which I assumed you had sited by way of example! I didn't realise that what you were saying was that you ACTUALLY walked past the incident on 30th April, 2010. Is this correct, or have I got the wrong end of the stick?

ThirstyWerk

I have never come across the acronym of IIRC before - 'If I remember correctly'. Please forgive me, I must have lead a sheltered life!! 
Yes, you are correct - their car was indeed a silver (or very very light metalic blue) Ford Mondeo. My car was in fact a silver bmw 320i. It is so good to make contact with you humberklog! It seems that you passed the scene some 40 - 50 minutes after the impact - so not a witness to the actual RTA. But honestly, it is just so encouraging to make contact with you through this thread, and it gives me increased hope that other witnesses to the actual impact may also happen across this conversation. Thank you so much for coming forward - in my book, you're a star!