"Natural hurlers"

Bonniedog

It is a term that has long intrigued me.

What does it mean? When Offaly made break though in 1980s I remember people saying "oh, they are not natural hurlers." Same no doubt applied to Clare. As for ourselves in Dublin, it's just "gym monkeys" and "manufactured hurlers."

Limerick always seem to be considered "natural hurlers" even though they've won one All Ireland in 70 years. Kerry are not natural hurlers obviously.

So what does it mean? Are there people who think that hurling is genetic?

Bredabe

I doubt that in reality,
My dad was a county hurler, my mum was a county level camogie player,
I can't hit a beachball with a tennis racket, rest of the fam the same.

But always the exception to any rule.

mickmackey1

Bonniedog wrote: »

Limerick always seem to be considered "natural hurlers" even though they've won one All Ireland in 70 years

We wouldn't see ourselves as natural hurlers, the Limerick way is a more agricultural, in-your-face style, where winning is the prime motive, however ugly. But we have had several natural hurlers, and the term probably applies more to specific players as opposed to entire counties.

Mick Roche, John Horgan, Eamon Cregan, Joe Cooney, Martin Storey, Tommy Walsh were all natural hurlers. Its about wristwork, artistry, economy of movement, vision, making everything look easy... things that can't be coached or perfected through practice, but just an innate ability that is reserved for an elite few.

Bonniedog

Yes, I can appreciate the fact that there are "naturally" gifted people in hurling and in other sports. Those you have named would certainly be among them. they are personal attributes, not down to fact they were born in particular places!

Was not making point against Limerick - you might have included Hartigans by the way or Carey or Ned! - just annoys me when hear entire counties being dismissed as not "natural hurlers" as though it was indeed some mystical genetic/geographical phenomenon :-)

mickmackey1

That said you're more likely to get a 'natural' from a county which already has a strong hurling culture, so geography does have a part to play of course. Which is why, switching to football, I find it very interesting that the likes of Declan Browne and Matty Forde could emerge from the wilderness.

Bonniedog

I assume had they concentrated on hurling they'd have been good too?

I played on same hurling team as Niall Quinn when we were kids and he was just good at everything: hurling, gaelic football, athletics, soccer obviously.

Which I suppose proves your point, if we had a strong hurling culture he might have chosen that.

Still not genetic mind!

mountgomery burns

Bredabe wrote: »

I doubt that in reality,
My dad was a county hurler, my mum was a county level camogie player,
I can't hit a beachball with a tennis racket, rest of the fam the same.

But always the exception to any rule.

Which one of Codys sons are you?

1984baby

Bonniedog wrote: »

I assume had they concentrated on hurling they'd have been good too?

I played on same hurling team as Niall Quinn when we were kids and he was just good at everything: hurling, gaelic football, athletics, soccer obviously.

Which I suppose proves your point, if we had a strong hurling culture he might have chosen that.

Still not genetic mind!

From a KK perspective, I reckon DJ, Richie Hogan, Tommy, Richie Power and JJ are "natural" hurlers. They just have "it". Others who were good hurlers but had to work on their skills etc.. Lyng, Comerford, Ryall, wally etc...

Bredabe

mountgomery burns wrote: »

Which one of Codys sons are you?

?

Rightwing

Bit like English football v continteal football. They are more natural on the ball.

Some counties are more into fitness than skills.

nice_guy80

children emulate the culture they are brought up in
if the focus is on skills then that is what children will strive to emulate
they are watching very good players at club level every week

there are more natural hurlers in the likes of Kilkenny or Tipp that never get near a county team

I always think the likes of Galway and Kerry produce very stylish 'natural' footballers
its the culture that they grow up in

Bonniedog

But the point is. they are good because their skills are cultivated. Its not because they have some "hurling gene."

There are people like Niall Quinn, JBM, Mick Galway and hosts of others probably who were good at multiple sports. Had they been born in New York probably been Yankees or Mets, Jamaica - not sure about Galway :-) - good runners.


Reason Cats are good is because they sustain a culture of excellence, not because they are born with some fkn DNA! Keith Higgins from Mayo is far better hurler than footballer. Natural hurler? No. Just born 100 miles too far north!

Grueller

Any thread that mentions natural hurler in the title has to have John Troy in it. Carry on.

corny

Rightwing wrote: »

Bit like English football v continteal football. They are more natural on the ball.

Some counties are more into fitness than skills.

There's nothing 'natural' about that though. Close control and ability to work in tight spaces are valued and worked on far more in countries like Spain. If anything its the very definition of manufactured. All in the coaching.

The original question? Its just rubbish talk generally propagated by fools imo. The logic goes good hurlers are natural. Average hurlers are not natural. KK have more good hurlers than Dublin....you can work out the rest.

Bonniedog a word of advice if i may. There isn't a week that goes by that you don't clearly demonstrate how much this bugs you. Build a bridge buddy.;)

Realt Dearg Sec

I would have always thought of the Offaly team in the 90s as being a bunch of "natural hurlers", lads who got by on their pure skill, wouldn't have been regarded as having much of a work ethic or anything. The likes of Pilkington obviously come to mind.

But more generally the term "natural" hurler does seem to be reserved for the big three for the most part. It's from the same stable of bullsh1t as the Cork belief that hurlers there simply grow like mushrooms without any need to preserve or cultivate a commitment to it among the kids. Not much of a surprise that the idea of the Dubs as "manufactured" hurlers emanated from the same source. It's a combination of unwarranted snobbery and lazy analysis.

Bonniedog

corny wrote: »

There's nothing 'natural' about that though. Close control and ability to work in tight spaces are valued and worked on far more in countries like Spain. If anything its the very definition of manufactured. All in the coaching.

The original question? Its just rubbish talk generally propagated by fools imo. The logic goes good hurlers are natural. Average hurlers are not natural. KK have more good hurlers than Dublin....you can work out the rest.

Bonniedog a word of advice if i may. There isn't a week that goes by that you don't clearly demonstrate how much this bugs you. Build a bridge buddy.;)

Don't take my neuroses away, as Woody Allen might say!

John Troy, well, clearly obviously not a "natural hurler."

What was Babs said? "Offaly learned how to play hurling looking over the wall into Tipp."

True saying. oh and they fkn remembered too

Twiceasnice97

Bredabe wrote: »

I doubt that in reality,
My dad was a county hurler, my mum was a county level camogie player,
I can't hit a beachball with a tennis racket, rest of the fam the same.

But always the exception to any rule.

did ye grow up in either parish your parents played for?

Bredabe

Twiceasnice97 wrote: »

did ye grow up in either parish your parents played for?

Parish, no.

Twiceasnice97

I think its a totally bullsh1t term myself.
Some places produce better hurlers because there is a better hurling culture than others.

So when a child is hitting a ball 30 yards at 8 years of age in some areas he might get great praise for that alone but in other areas if he has the wrong hand on top or doesn't practise off both sides or rises the ball with the toe turned in he will be pulled up on it and the distance will be ignored

Twiceasnice97

Bredabe wrote: »

Parish, no.

therefore could it be said that it was the hurling culture around you rather than the basic ability levels that was the issue?

Bredabe

Twiceasnice97 wrote: »

therefore could it be said that it was the hurling culture around you rather than the basic ability levels that was the issue?

Hard to say, my parents had stopped playing by the time I arrived and where I grew up Hurleys were used to threaten gurriers or to "motivate" good behaviour. But my older sibs who played in school and with the parents, no good at it either.

PARlance

"Natural" sportspeople are going to be nurtured better in areas where than sport excels. They're also going to get more recognition through success.

Frankie5Angels

Bonniedog wrote: »

It is a term that has long intrigued me.

What does it mean? When Offaly made break though in 1980s I remember people saying "oh, they are not natural hurlers." Same no doubt applied to Clare. As for ourselves in Dublin, it's just "gym monkeys" and "manufactured hurlers."

Limerick always seem to be considered "natural hurlers" even though they've won one All Ireland in 70 years. Kerry are not natural hurlers obviously.

So what does it mean? Are there people who think that hurling is genetic?

As said above, it's probably a 'bullsh1t' term for the most part, but I think I understand what someone was trying to say if they say it.

I don't think you can confine it to an area, it's an individual thing. You mention Clare, so using them as an example, you would have 'natural' hurlers like Jamesie O'Connor, Seanie McMahon to whom the skills came more easily. Then you'd have the likes of Ollie Baker (and maybe the other five forwards, sure didn't they only have the one :pac: ) to whom the skills wouldn't be as easily picked up, he'd have to do far more work to get to a decent level - thus he was 'manufactured'.

Dyr

Apparently they can do a DNA test for "wristiness".

blue note

To reiterate - it's a bullsh1t term used by people for a mixture of reasons - snobbery, to seem like they have a good eye for understanding hurling.

Depending on who says it it can mean a skillful player, as opposed to an athletic or a physical one. So someone like Michael Fennelly might be described as a beast of a man before being described as a natural hurler. If he was from a county other than Kilkenny we'd probably hear that he's a footballer who turned his hand to hurling. Whereas a particularly skillful player like Richie Hogan would be described as a natural hurler. That natural skill came from endless hours of practice I'm sure, but nonetheless he'd be described as natural.

As other people have said, it can also be used as a put down to an up and coming team.

Twiceasnice97

Frankie5Angels wrote: »

As said above, it's probably a 'bullsh1t' term for the most part, but I think I understand what someone was trying to say if they say it.

I don't think you can confine it to an area, it's an individual thing. You mention Clare, so using them as an example, you would have 'natural' hurlers like Jamesie O'Connor, Seanie McMahon to whom the skills came more easily. Then you'd have the likes of Ollie Baker (and maybe the other five forwards, sure didn't they only have the one :pac: ) to whom the skills wouldn't be as easily picked up, he'd have to do far more work to get to a decent level - thus he was 'manufactured'.

you have inadvertently landed on the living proof of what a nonsense the term is.
Seanie McMahon was the best centre back in Ireland at 22 years of age and hit 99 points from centre back over his career
however as I understand it five years earlier when he was under 17 he played full back on his club minor team in the county minor A final only because the regular full back got injured. other wise he would have been a sub.

Twiceasnice97

podge Collins has exceptional skills but he didn't become `podge` or a `natural hurler` until he took 25 sliothars home with him and hit them over the bar four times a night every night. before that he wouldn't hit a cows ar5e with a banjo

Kerrydude1981

Corks Tony O Sullivan was a natural hurler,all be it I saw him towards the end of his career but I thought he was class

Tipps Micheal Cleary is another that was a natural hurler

pontoonz

if i had to pick one hurler of the last 2 decades,

john troy

Bonniedog

So Kerrydude, they were just born "natural hurlers" were they? Nothing to do with as someone else said that they spent umpteen hour practising their skills.

Indeed, your own Mick O'Connell would be described as epitome of a "natural footballer." And yet if you read his book he spent endless hours kicking a ball against the end of his house when he had no-one else to play with. That is not genetics, it is dedication. To quote Edison - 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration.

mickmackey1

Bonniedog wrote: »

Indeed, your own Mick O'Connell would be described as epitome of a "natural footballer." And yet if you read his book he spent endless hours kicking a ball against the end of his house when he had no-one else to play with. That is not genetics, it is dedication. To quote Edison - 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration.

Lots of others also spent endless hours kicking a football but they didn't end up as Mick O'Connell. Clearly there is something known as natural talent, which needs lots of perfecting yes, but cannot be reproduced by someone who just doesn't 'have it'.

Frankie5Angels

Bonniedog wrote: »

So Kerrydude, they were just born "natural hurlers" were they? Nothing to do with as someone else said that they spent umpteen hour practising their skills.

Indeed, your own Mick O'Connell would be described as epitome of a "natural footballer." And yet if you read his book he spent endless hours kicking a ball against the end of his house when he had no-one else to play with. That is not genetics, it is dedication. To quote Edison - 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration.

I'm not sure anyone's disputing the fact that the greats work on their game. We've all seen lads who couldn't kick snow off a rope, or wouldn't hit a ball two yards with a hurl. It'd take those lads umpteen more hours to perfect the skills of the game than those some people would refer to as a 'natural hurler'.

Frankie5Angels

Twiceasnice97 wrote: »

you have inadvertently landed on the living proof of what a nonsense the term is.
Seanie McMahon was the best centre back in Ireland at 22 years of age and hit 99 points from centre back over his career
however as I understand it five years earlier when he was under 17 he played full back on his club minor team in the county minor A final only because the regular full back got injured. other wise he would have been a sub.

Not necessarily. McMahon would have had the skill at a young age, I'm sure. His physique developed later. To me, physique would have nothing to do with being a 'natural' hurler as I would interpret the term (load of waffle and all as it is! ) - that, imo, relates to skill only.

Davys Fits

Natural Hurler= One that makes it look easy. Brendan Lynskey V Johnny Dooley.

Bonniedog

"Is it a bird, is it a plane? No, it's Johnny Dooley,"

My favourite banner of all time!

I assume you are positing JD to Lynskey as natural hurler to some sort of mullocker? Which is surely unfair/ Or perhaps the reverse which would be equally so!

munster87

Bonniedog wrote: »

So Kerrydude, they were just born "natural hurlers" were they? Nothing to do with as someone else said that they spent umpteen hour practising their skills.

Indeed, your own Mick O'Connell would be described as epitome of a "natural footballer." And yet if you read his book he spent endless hours kicking a ball against the end of his house when he had no-one else to play with. That is not genetics, it is dedication. To quote Edison - 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration.

If going football wise I would take colm cooper v eoghan o gara as a decent example. You can try work out the natural talent there.

Bonniedog

munster87 wrote: »

If going football wise I would take colm cooper v eoghan o gara as a decent example. You can try work out the natural talent there.

I will admit that is a difficult one to answer!

Having said that, Cooper like Brogan has been served by good tough journeymen without whom they would not have been as prominent.

munster87

Bonniedog wrote: »

I will admit that is a difficult one to answer!

Having said that, Cooper like Brogan has been served by good tough journeymen without whom they would not have been as prominent.

Still, they both would have stood out playing for any county

Bonniedog

munster87 wrote: »

Still, they both would have stood out playing for any county

Like Mattie Forde and Declan Browne, yes am prepared to give that one up.

Dublin have had some good hurlers over the years; Dessie Foley, Harry Dalton, Mick Bermingham, Joey Towell - to confine it to older days! - but they were good in football land because they dedicated themselves to hurling. Joey was a postman who used to spend his time off pucking ball around Phoenix Park. Played with Dublin when they were sh1te but was still one of most prolific goal scorers. He was from north inner city. Not "natural hurling" territory

Anyway, reason I started this was annoyance over certain attitudes. Interesting discussion and has changed my view somewhat.

NB: Not a popular choice but Liam Lawlor of other fame was handy hurler. Uncles played with him.

Stoner

Bonniedog wrote:

Dublin have had some good hurlers over the years; Dessie Foley, Harry Dalton, Mick Bermingham, Joey Towell - to confine it to older days! - but they were good in football land because they dedicated themselves to hurling. Joey was a postman who used to spend his time off pucking ball around Phoenix Park. Played with Dublin when they were sh1te but was still one of most prolific goal scorers. He was from north inner city. Not "natural hurling" territory

Joey was and is Telecom no?

Although inner city it was a hurling area. The whole club was largely hurling and allegedly split due to hurling vs footballing priorities,l


The whole area produced decent players including franner Whelan from the 61 team. I've heard Franner passed away taking down the bunting after the 1995 football win I must have met him.but didn't know it at the time


It's my understanding that comogie record holders (Cork have matched them) many came from cowtown with one AI winning team having 13 of the 15 starting from Eoghan Ruadh. That area of Northside Dublin was around the park, NCR and Prussia Street.

It took players mainly from one male and one female school and is a small enough area.

Joeys two nephews were very promising hurlers too so maybe it does run in the blood but unfortunately the whole thing fell apart at underage level. Clubs like O'Tools and Plunketts picked up some of the players (for example the fathers and uncle's of the Cartons). Peadar Carton​ Sr was a regular on the railway cup team would have went to Brunner and originally played for Eoghan Ruadh.

They went on to be successful at other clubs, but that whole bit of hurling in and around there is largly gone now imo unfortunately so I wouldn't count it as keeping any great fire burning. The Brothers are gone from CBS North Brunswick Street and recently they had some success at football in the primary School.

The same school produced John Giles, Steve Collins, Noel King etc . I must find out if Franner and Liam Whelan were related? Competition for sports was high there a lot of the lads from the flats never played team sports to the best of my knowledge. Although some were decent boxers.
That area would have housed many of the traders and their families, class numbers around Christmas and Halloween were always down when lads sold fireworks and wrapping paper.

The hurling was largely stoneybatter and back to Cabra.

Plunketts and ER joined up a number of years ago. My understanding with Joey was that he stayed with the clubs through the break up and altough he won a fair few medals at under age the win in the intermediate championship when ER were relegated a couple of years before joining up with Plunketts they won the intermediate championship to get promoted back to D2 senior hurling I think that was his first honour

They still have the hurling grounds in the park. It was always called the hurling grounds even though the club had football and hurling there at one stage. That's its name funnily enough, there's something in that too


The club always had a few lads from outside Dublin contributing hard in the club. That influence while largly positive also helped the split along as that "hurling is more important than football " thing didn't really fly in 1970's Dublin when Mullins etc were the GAA household names and as you say Bonnie the hurling team wasn't great.

There is nothing like a bit of success to grow a sport at the expense of another.
But play one and not the other didn't work in Stoneybatter anyway.
If you check back to 2010 here you'll see posts about Dublin now being hurling country.

pontoonz

from 1987 to 2017

john troy

nikki english

dj carey

joe canning

davey fitgerald

Kerrydude1981

Bonniedog wrote: »

So Kerrydude, they were just born "natural hurlers" were they? Nothing to do with as someone else said that they spent umpteen hour practising their skills.

Indeed, your own Mick O'Connell would be described as epitome of a "natural footballer." And yet if you read his book he spent endless hours kicking a ball against the end of his house when he had no-one else to play with. That is not genetics, it is dedication. To quote Edison - 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration.

Of course they practiced their skills,but as posted already the natural hurler makes the game look easy,look at your own Diarmuid Connolly when he has his head in the right place he is one of the most natural footballers around

A natural player just seems to find that split second more on the ball when all else around them are going flat out and that cant be thought by any trainer

Django99

Well this question is the same as the age old nature vs nurture argument. And that has never been fully answered so we probably won't arrive at the answer here!

But there are a lot of interesting theories. The Podge Collins example earlier in their thread is interesting. He looks like a natural hurler now, but when he was minor and even when he first came onto the Clare panel scoring was not his strong point. Lots of hours put in since and it shows, his point in the 2013 All Ireland was one of the best I've ever seen. And when you watch it, you definitely feel you're looking at a natural hurler.

Lots of people like to say Dublin aren't natural hurlers, well when I watch Liam Rushe and David attract and Mark Schutte they look natural to me. But because Dublin isn't a primarily hurling county, there's no doubt there a plenty of other natural hurlers in the county who never get to senior level, because they're playing a different sport.

In kilkenny, pretty much every child will play at least a small bit of hurling at a young age. If there's a natural talent there, they will be found. They'll get better coaching through development squads. They might go to Kieran's and play hurling every day and night. They'll have a higher social status because they're a good hurler. In turn, other children will see this and want to become a good hurler. And so the cycle continues.

Most high level athletes would be high level regardless of the sport they chose. If Diarmuid Connolly had committed to hurling from day one I have no doubt he'd be one of the top hurlers in the country and regarded as a natural. But instead he's one of the best footballers. If he had been born in Kilkenny and all else being equal, he would have stuck with hurling.

It's because of these reasons people like to think Kilkenny, Tipp and Cork are natural hurlers. Anywhere that the tradition of hurling is big will produce more hurlers. In hurling areas, the talented children will pick hurling as their sport.

In places where there isn't as much of a tradition, the talented children might take up a different sport. It takes many years to build a culture and tradition of a sport in an area, particularly in a city environment like Dublin. But the work is being done and hopefully down the years Dublin will be producing as many naturals as any other county.

Bonniedog

I am showing my age Stoner. I remember when it was Posts and Telegraphs!

Interesting history about Eoghan Ruadh. Hadn't realised so many of the great camogie team were from that part of Dublin. And of course the only native Dub on the 1938 team was Jim Byrne from Eoghan Ruadh.

I do recall seeing the name Towell a few times over the years and assumed they were related.

danganabu

Django99 wrote: »

Lots of people like to say Dublin aren't natural hurlers, well when I watch Liam Rushe and David attract and Mark Schutte they look natural to me. But because Dublin isn't a primarily hurling county, there's no doubt there a plenty of other natural hurlers in the county who never get to senior level, because they're playing a different sport.

Shane Ryan would have made it centre back for any county in the country at the time was a quality hurler and a great reader of the game which was probably something that he developed as a footballer.

tomwaterford

Paul flynn of waterford always had a skilset above his preceived athletic ability to put it nicely

He could do virtually anything with the ball and was one of the best to block a ball cleanly (not hooking the opposition,bat the ball down mid strike)




I guess the natural hurler would have an above average hand - eye coordination all of which would be pointless if they don't put the work into training/learning the skill (which in theory should come easier??)

danganabu

tomwaterford wrote: »

Paul flynn of waterford always had a skilset above his preceived athletic ability to put it nicely

He could do virtually anything with the ball and was one of the best to block a ball cleanly (not hooking the opposition,bat the ball down mid strike)




I guess the natural hurler would have an above average hand - eye coordination all of which would be pointless if they don't put the work into training/learning the skill (which in theory should come easier??)

Flynn is actually a perfect example, you get natural sportsmen as opposed to natural hurlers, from what I have heard Flynn was equally adept at a number of sports and once that natural ability is there the next most important ingredient is environment and opportunity.

oppenheimer1

Bonniedog wrote: »

So Kerrydude, they were just born "natural hurlers" were they? Nothing to do with as someone else said that they spent umpteen hour practising their skills.

Indeed, your own Mick O'Connell would be described as epitome of a "natural footballer." And yet if you read his book he spent endless hours kicking a ball against the end of his house when he had no-one else to play with. That is not genetics, it is dedication. To quote Edison - 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration.

Its a bull**** term and an insult to players who have spent long hours every week perfecting their skills.

Bonniedog

danganabu wrote: »

Shane Ryan would have made it centre back for any county in the country at the time was a quality hurler and a great reader of the game which was probably something that he developed as a footballer.

People often refer to Keaney and Brady and more recently Kilkenny, Costello and Connolly as good hurlers who chose football - I know Keaney came back - but Shane was brilliant hurler and possibly biggest loss of all.

From Dublin perspective one of killers over the years has been football's dominance, indeed bullying. Even though Heffo was good hurler and O'Driscoll, Keaveney and Hanahoe, and Mick Holden later, had played for Dublin Heffernan was absolutely opposed to dual players and that even affected Vinnies his own club. My uncle was involved in Dublin senior hurling and 21s in 70s and early 80s and they were treated like sh1t. Everything was second rate from gear to training facilities to transport.

More recently Gilroy told Rory O'Carroll that he would be dropped from football seniors if he played in Leinster under 21 hurling final. About two months before the footballers played a serious game. With that sort of attitude it will always be second cousin.