Driving lessons - stopping the car

Hi All

So last month I started driving lessons as a complete beginner and I am now on lesson 8.  The first few lessons were kind of terrible but eventually I started to get the hang of it a lot better.  The main problem I have now is stopping the car in the correct position.  I tend to constantly fall a few feet short of were I need to be. 
The technique my instructor is teaching me is to come down the gears. 
My understanding is, if for example I am driving in 3rd gear and I see a Yield sign ahead, I would do the following.
Come off the gas.
Very gently tip the brake.
Clutch down and into 2nd gear. 
Clutch up
Still have foot over the brake but barely pressing it.
Clutch down and roll the final metre or 2.
Brake to stop
1st gear. 

Is it just that I'm a bit nervous and too heavy on the brake or braking too soon maybe, or is my technique wrong?  It's very frustrating
Its similar for roundabouts, I'm too slow coming into it.

VG31

There's no need to shift down through the gears. Just stop in whatever gear your in, whether that's second or fourth gear. There are some instances where it may be advisable to shift down through the gears, particularly if you're in a high gear. However you should not be routinely shifting down from third or fourth gear. There's nothing wrong with doing it but its unnecessary and you're just making it harder for yourself.

You should find it much easier to stop where you want if you don't shift down.

Big Bag of Chips

The problem with not coming down the gears is "coasting". In real life most people drive like that! But in a test scenario if you're slowing to a stop in fourth you'll either have to coast to a stop, or the car will shudder as the speed drops and you stay in fourth. And you will be marked down for incorrect use of the gears.

Just keep getting as much practice as you can, OP. It's all about your judgement and you will only improve on that with experience.

CelticRambler

Experience!

Your example perhaps isn't the best, because if you're coming up to a yield sign, you won't necessarily be stopping (that's what Stop signs are for :cool: ) so you should still be driving in second or third as you come up to the line.

During your future practice sessions, try to get used to the range of speeds covered by second and third gear. Most cars can comfortably cruise slowly in second without juddering, but even in third you can drop quite low before risking a stall. Your challenge is to figure out how slow you can go and drop down a gear just before that.

And don't forget that there's no reason why you can't drop straight from fourth to second if the circumstances require it.

Sleeper12

Your instructor is correct teaching you to come down in gear. It is the proven safest way. It'll all fall in place with time. Get lot's of practice in and before long you'll be doing it in your sleep.

MascotDec85

CelticRambler wrote: »

Experience!

Your example perhaps isn't the best, because if you're coming up to a yield sign, you won't necessarily be stopping (that's what Stop signs are for :cool: ) so you should still be driving in second or third as you come up to the line.

During your future practice sessions, try to get used to the range of speeds covered by second and third gear. Most cars can comfortably cruise slowly in second without juddering, but even in third you can drop quite low before risking a stall. Your challenge is to figure out how slow you can go and drop down a gear just before that.

And don't forget that there's no reason why you can't drop straight from fourth to second if the circumstances require it.

What if the instructors car is a diesel? It probably won't handle 3rd at low speed and I certainly wouldn't be asking any pupil to be in 3rd at a yield line, they'd be approaching too fast.

MascotDec85

OP, it just sounds like your pressing the brake too hard at the end worrying that you won't stop in time. I'd talk to your instructor about it to avoid confusion from conflicting, well intentioned, advice.

J_R

Hi,

as CelticRambler says, not a good example to use a yield sign. If you know you are going to stop there is no need to change down, simply stop in the gear you happen to be on, irrespective what gear that happens to be, 4th 5th or even 6th. You will definitely not be marked in the test for not changing down - if done correctly. However you also will not be marked if you do change down sequentially, again if done correctly.

Can not understand why people still use such an archaic procedure. Many years ago when power assisted brakes were a rarity, drivers "Saved" the brakes as much as possible, whenever possible used the gears to slow the car.

Using the brakes heated them up and as they were enclosed "drum" brakes, the air could not circulate, they therefore remained hot and each use they heated up more and more. If they reached a certain temperature the brake pads lost their grip. Expression used, they were said to "fade". Fairly common cause of accidents - the fn brakes faded.

Now cars brakes are power assisted, discs to cool and they are the cheapest and easiest replaced components on a car. (Lot cheaper than clutches and gear boxes). Therefore they can be used with complete abandon.

It is much nicer, easier driving. When you know you are going to stop, simply check mirrors, brake, then depress the clutch before the car would begin to shudder.

When I was an instructor and I got a pupil who wanted a few lessons before the test, if they changed down, made perfect gear changes, check mirror, foot from the foot rest to the clutch, hand to gear lever, depress clutch, change gear, release clutch, hand back to wheel - foot back to rest, I would tell them it was unnecessary to change down, left it up to them if they wanted to change their system.

However, if the pupil was a messy gear changer, leaving their hand on the gear lever, leaving their foot on the clutch pedal and even sometimes not releasing the clutch fully I would strongly advise them not to change down, simply brake, leave the clutch alone, less they had tp do with the gears and clutch the better.

Not changing down is much more economical. Easily proven if the car is equipped with a read out of fuel consumption. On present car if I leave the car in gear, get off the gas the instantaneous readout jumps to 99.9 MPG if I change down it varies between 40 odd and 20 MPG. Would take a video and post only afraid would be caught got holding a phone. Also saves the clutch and gear box and safer driving as two hands remain on the wheel.

Do a "Google" for block gear changing

Alanstrainor

Some great advice offered here!

naughtysmurf

jacdaniel2014 wrote: »

The technique my instructor is teaching me is to come down the gears. 
My understanding is, if for example I am driving in 3rd gear and I see a Yield sign ahead, I would do the following.
Come off the gas.
Very gently tip the brake.
Clutch down and into 2nd gear. 
Clutch up
Still have foot over the brake but barely pressing it.
Clutch down and roll the final metre or 2.
Brake to stop
1st gear. 

The above is pretty much what my son over the last year was taught to do by the Aviva driving school, he passed his test a couple of weeks ago
He was also encouraged to go around roundabouts in 2nd and after stopping at lights in 2nd he was told to apply handbrake, select 1st & wait for lights to change

lollsangel

VG31 wrote: »

There's no need to shift down through the gears. Just stop in whatever gear your in, whether that's second or fourth gear. There are some instances where it may be advisable to shift down through the gears, particularly if you're in a high gear. However you should not be routinely shifting down from third or fourth gear. There's nothing wrong with doing it but its unnecessary and you're just making it harder for yourself.

You should find it much easier to stop where you want if you don't shift down.

They changed it a while back, you need to shift down gears and shift them individually for your test.

J_R

lollsangel wrote: »

They changed it a while back, you need to shift down gears and shift them individually for your test.

Hi,

I doubt that very very much. Can you supply a link. Or who advised you that is now the case. If it was a driving instructor send him a link to this thread and have him come on here,. Will be delighted to debate with him/her

lollsangel

The driving instructor my partner took his lessons with last year. Passed first time.
He was told that when they brought in the 12 lessons, it was brought in as a requirement. As you can see previously in the thread its the way its being taught now.
I questioned another one I knew as I thought bullsh!t but yea she said the same thing you can be marked in your test for it.

Alanstrainor

lollsangel wrote: »

They changed it a while back, you need to shift down gears and shift them individually for your test.

I'm sorry but this is not true. I would guess this instructor is mistaken. There is no advantage to shifting down through the gears in a modern car when coming to a complete stop.

J_R

lollsangel wrote: »

The driving instructor my partner took his lessons with last year. Passed first time.
He was told that when they brought in the 12 lessons, it was brought in as a requirement. As you can see previously in the thread its the way its being taught now.
I questioned another one I knew as I thought bullsh!t but yea she said the same thing you can be marked in your test for it.

Hi,

I left the industry when the EDT arrived as I thought it was badly flawed and I could not teach something I did not fully support. Nevertheless I did read the syllabus fully and there was no mention whatsoever re. block changing, changing down when stopping etc

so, my offer still holds, have your partner contact his now ex-instructor and ask him to post the relevant extract from the EDT program

lollsangel

J_R wrote: »

Hi,

I left the industry when the EDT arrived as I thought it was badly flawed and I could not teach something I did not fully support. Nevertheless I did read the syllabus fully and there was no mention whatsoever re. block changing, changing down when stopping etc

so, my offer still holds, have your partner contact his now ex-instructor and ask him to post the relevant extract from the EDT program

Why would i bother? Id go with the word of 2 actual registered ADI instructors than some randomer online. Plus its the way the OP has been taught. As it is the way every other person who has done their 12 lessons that I know has been taught.
I think its a stupid way to drive,mind you the 12 lessons for a foreign national who has been driving 20 years are bullsh!t, but to oass ypur test you have to jump through the hoops

J_R

lollsangel wrote: »

Why would i bother? Id go with the word of 2 actual registered ADI instructors than some randomer online. Plus its the way the OP has been taught. As it is the way every other person who has done their 12 lessons that I know has been taught.
I think its a stupid way to drive,mind you the 12 lessons for a foreign national who has been driving 20 years are bullsh!t, but to oass ypur test you have to jump through the hoops

Hi,

Aw go on, just a phone call to partner/driving instructor

J_R

lollsangel wrote: »

Why would i bother? Id go with the word of 2 actual registered ADI instructors than some randomer online. Plus its the way the OP has been taught. As it is the way every other person who has done their 12 lessons that I know has been taught.
I think its a stupid way to drive,mind you the 12 lessons for a foreign national who has been driving 20 years are bullsh!t, but to oass ypur test you have to jump through the hoops

Hi
That two instructors teach the same does not make it right. Only that perhaps they trained (?) same training establishment. Instructor training in Ireland is a little incestuous.

I am absolutely 100% certain that best driving practice is not to change down and 100% certain that you would not be marked for doing so in the test.

I was a registered driving instructor for fifteen years, had well in excess of 3,000 test passes, vast majority would have been first timers.

P_M_K

I passed my test a few weeks ago and never shifted down through the gears. I stopped in whatever gear I happened to be in and when approaching a roundabout/yield sign I would slow down and go straight from say 4th to 2nd and continue on. Didn't receive any marks for gears in the test.

J_R

P_M_K wrote: »

I passed my test a few weeks ago and never shifted down through the gears. I stopped in whatever gear I happened to be in and when approaching a roundabout/yield sign I would slow down and go straight from say 4th to 2nd and continue on. Didn't receive any marks for gears in the test.

+1

Hi,
I can go slightly better. I had over 3,000 pupils who did not change down when stopping and who block changed.

wee story. When I started as a driving instructor, in 1995, I taught from the very first that it was unnecessary to change down. (As advised by the Institute of Advanced Motorist - of which I am a member)

I was only a few weeks in the job and I got a young lad as a pupil, he just wanted a few lessons to prepare for the test, He was an exceptionally good driver. His car was an original "Hot Hatch" one of the very first VW Golf MK 1. He had restored it himself and had done a fantastic job. Beautiful little car.

I told him it was unnecessary to change down. Being a bit of a pistonhead he immediately saw the advantages but he found it very difficult to believe that he would not be marked in the test. Again and again he used to ask "Are you sure I won't be marked for this". And I reassured him again and again he would not. He saw how it simplified driving so he thought it would not be allowed.

He did the test and passed. However he told me afterwards the examiner said to him That "He would prefer if he changed down when stopping or approaching junctions, he should not rely solely on the brakes"

I quite understand why the examiner felt that way, The lad drove at the absolute maximum safe speed and when stopping or approaching a junction he would leave it to the last possible safe moment to start braking. The car, although appeared to be in perfect condition was after all twenty years old.

However I still wanted to clear this up with the examiner so few days later dropped in armed with two books, one was The Institute of Advanced Motorist manual, forget the name of the other.

I asked him for clarification on stopping, approaching junctions. Examiners are not supposed to discuss the test with a third party but he immediately guessed what I was referring to and replied "I did not mark him for it".

So, we had a nice chat, he did not know that the IAM advocated block changing and not changing down when stopping. I offered to lend him the books, but he declined.

Any person getting lessons at the moment and whose instructor says you must change down, ask them for clarification, the official source. And to come on here and post a link.

Skatedude

My instructor always used a simple rule.
start in 1st.
turn in 2nd.
stop in 3rd
and drive in 4th.

J_R

Skatedude wrote: »

My instructor always used a simple rule.
start in 1st.
turn in 2nd.
stop in 3rd
and drive in 4th.

Hi,

Must have been quite a few years ago when you had your driving lessons. Most modern cars have five gears, quite a few six

_Brian

I would have thought that op was beong taught correctly.

Some People are recommending rolling upnto a stop sign in top gear without running the car down the gears. I'd have thought this was the least controlled way to approach a stop sign. It's many years since I did lessons or the test but using the gears along with breaks to slow your vehicle is more effective and controlled way to come to a stop.

My advice to OP is keep practicing what your instructor has shown you, it is correct. Driving, like any other skill requires a huge amount of practice and experience to build competence and confidence.

J_R

Hi,

Page from Institute of Advanced Motorist


https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0BxptATNNxj1jS3lrdWEwOFJDMU0


Still waiting for a link from an authoritative source stating that not changing down will be marked in the test.

PS Sorry, unable to embed image, necessary to download

J_R

My advice to the OP:-

Go out with an accompanying driver. Drive to some quiet road. Select a landmark a few hundred meters ahead, signpost, gateway, anything you can clearly see. Speed up to 4th, 5th gear, then simply brake, do not change down, aim to stop at the selected spot. To come to a smooth halt, aim at a point about quarter car length back from your mark. When you reach that point get off the brake and the car should roll to a gentle halt at the pole, gateway whatever. Depress the clutch before the engine would start to shudder and initially brake firmly, then ease off as you slow.

Repeat.

Once you realise how it simplifies stopping you will never go back to changing down.

If you have not got the use of a car, tell your instructor you would like to practice stopping without changing down. If he says you will be marked in the test tell him to check with the RSA. Or click my link in previous post, print the PDF and give it to him

Or change your instructor

Skatedude

J_R wrote: »

Hi,

Must have been quite a few years ago when you had your driving lessons. Most modern cars have five gears, quite a few six

yep, but never needed 5th or 6th in dublin city driving.

J_R

Skatedude wrote: »

yep, but never needed 5th or 6th in dublin city driving.

Hi,

But do not the Dublin Driving instructors take their pupils outside the 50 Km/h zone, take them for example to a dual carriageway, give them a lesson on joining/exiting and lane changing. Or negotiating large roundabouts in the correct gear. Or emergency stopping at speed ? . Or was he an exception ?

Perhaps he was one of these "pre test specialists " I see advertised.

Dravokivich

jacdaniel2014 wrote: »

Clutch down and roll the final metre or 2.

This is coasting. You should not be doing this.

J_R

Dravokivich wrote: »

This is coasting. You should not be doing this.

Hi,

But why not. ? It is impossible to stop without coasting. When the wheels stop rotating the engine must already be disconnected from the wheels, otherwise it will stall.

This "coasting" is quite acceptable (and safe). Same way as when you change gears you are "coasting".

For example, say you change gears at 60 KmH, and that it takes you one second to shift the gear lever whilst the clutch is depressed. During that one second the car will have coasted 16.6 meters @ 60 KmH. (This is the reason it is strongly recommended not to change gears whilst taking a bend or corner. Coasting whilst turning is extremely dangerous and not just because you will have only one hand on the wheel).

So how could rolling to a stop in a straight line with two hands on the wheel be dangerous ?

From BMW Owners manual



"Coasting" can sometimes have two different meanings, as above when it means taking the foot off the gas and having the car just move on its own momentum or depressing the clutch and allowing the car to free-wheel.


Therefore according to BMW (and myriad other sources) it is unnecessary to change down when stopping.

Dravokivich

I was taught to understand coasting as driving with the clutch pressed down. That this was advised as not something to do. And was demonstrated with me doing so with the instructor. Its a wreckless means to drive and didn't aid in the slowing down of the car in a controllable manner.

I think you are just getting a bit over eager on outlaying the process for shifting gears. Your intent would not be to hold down the clutch and continue driving with it down after doing so.

To roll to a stop, I shift down and foot off throttle, while gradually applying pressure to the breaks. Clutch down as I come to a halt. Why would I do all that while keeping the clutch down?

I'm sure BMW advise people where the indicators are in their manuals. But they don't seem to take much notice of that. :P Doubt they are coasting to a halt because BMW suggest it.

Edit:
I'm also assuming BMW take coasting to have no reference to the clutch. Most of their cars are Automatics, so wouldn't have one. They'd just be continuing until the momentum dissipates. Would an Automatic engage the Clutch when there's no Throttle?

J_R

Dravokivich wrote: »

I was taught to understand coasting as driving with the clutch pressed down. That this was advised as not something to do. And was demonstrated with me doing so with the instructor. Its a wreckless means to drive and didn't aid in the slowing down of the car in a controllable manner.

I think you are just getting a bit over eager on outlaying the process for shifting gears. Your intent would not be to hold down the clutch and continue driving with it down after doing so.

To roll to a stop, I shift down and foot off throttle, while gradually applying pressure to the breaks. Clutch down as I come to a halt. Why would I do all that while keeping the clutch down?

I'm sure BMW advise people where the indicators are in their manuals. But they don't seem to take much notice of that. :P Doubt they are coasting to a halt because BMW suggest it.

Hi

Perhaps I should have changed slightly the wording of the BMW quote. Complicates matters slightly. They used a different meaning for coasting. They are saying simply to leave the car in the highest suitable gear, unnecessary to change down. Unsaid, NOT to press in the clutch but obviously you must depress it before the speed becomes too slow for the gear.

I used to demonstrate coasting to my pupils. Have them coast down a steep hill. In a straight line car just gathers speed, which could be easily corrected by braking. Only when I told them to take a few sharp swings on the wheel that they experienced and realised how dangerous coasting can be. (and very frightening)

ohnonotgmail

Dravokivich wrote: »

I was taught to understand coasting as driving with the clutch pressed down. That this was advised as not something to do. And was demonstrated with me doing so with the instructor. Its a wreckless means to drive and didn't aid in the slowing down of the car in a controllable manner.

I think you are just getting a bit over eager on outlaying the process for shifting gears. Your intent would not be to hold down the clutch and continue driving with it down after doing so.

To roll to a stop, I shift down and foot off throttle, while gradually applying pressure to the breaks. Clutch down as I come to a halt. Why would I do all that while keeping the clutch down?

I'm sure BMW advise people where the indicators are in their manuals. But they don't seem to take much notice of that. :P Doubt they are coasting to a halt because BMW suggest it.

Edit:
I'm also assuming BMW take coasting to have no reference to the clutch. Most of their cars are Automatics, so wouldn't have one. They'd just be continuing until the momentum dissipates. Would an Automatic engage the Clutch when there's no Throttle?

that is my understanding of what coasting means as well. I've never heard driving with your foot off the accelerator described as coasting. As J_R said it is pretty much impossible to stop properly if you dont. Rolling up to a stop in gear is not coasting as I understand it.

Dravokivich

J_R wrote: »

Hi

Perhaps I should have changed slightly the wording of the BMW quote. Complicates matters slightly. They used a different meaning for coasting. They are saying simply to leave the car in the highest suitable gear, unnecessary to change down. Unsaid, NOT to press in the clutch but obviously you must depress it before the speed becomes too slow for the gear.

I used to demonstrate coasting to my pupils. Have them coast down a steep hill. In a straight line car just gathers speed, which could be easily corrected by braking. Only when I told them to take a few sharp swings on the wheel that they experienced and realised how dangerous coasting can be. (and very frightening)

Yeah, as I edited after posting, I was thinking they didn't consider any actions with the clutch as a part of coasting.

With regards to using a hill, i was thinking of the segment from Top Gear where Chris and Matt freewheeled down a hill when reading the snippet you copied. However my demonstration was in an industrial estate. Less likely to have issues when you're more likely to have an issue :P

J_R

Hi,

some driving instructors come out with some right rubbish, especially re coasting. Worst case ever I came across was with a young girl.

She wanted a few lessons before her test, she had her own car and on our first lesson, after I watched her drive for a few minutes, negotiate a few junctions, I told her to pull over and stop and I would give her the bad news.

But she made no attempt to stop, instead burst out crying and kept driving. Felt terrible, apologised profusely, said was only joking she was not too bad a driver, only a few minor things, through sobs she said it wasn't me it was her, she could not stop.

That frightened me a bit as did not have dual controls (her car). Then thought maybe she misunderstood the word "Stop", (she was from Latvia, but spoke perfect English), so I said, pull over, we'll have a chat.

Which she did, no problem just the odd sob. With the car safely secured, handed her the box of tissues and asked her what was wrong.

Her story. At end of each lesson, her last instructor would tell her that she "coasted to a stop and she would fail the test for it". I then asked her what else did the instructor say, explain coasting how to fix etc etc. Nothing, she said only "That will be ?35 please, same time next week ?"

So my advice to learners. With car control faults, the examiner only marks if it is dangerous or potentially dangerous, so when an instructor says "You will be marked in the test for that" ask them why, explain exactly how is it dangerous.

But a good instructor will never simply use the expression "You will be marked in the test for that" instead they will first explain how and why it is dangerous and then they may add "Which is why you will be marked in the test for it"

MascotDec85

J_R wrote: »

......

So my advice to learners. With car control faults, the examiner only marks if it is dangerous or potentially dangerous, so when an instructor says "You will be marked in the test for that" ask them why, explain exactly how is it dangerous.

......"

I'd have to disagree with this paragraph completely. A tester is quite within their rights to mark a pupil in the car controls section for a minor or serious fault. What you've basically said above is that a learner will only be given a Grade 3 fault during the test given that a Grade 3 is described as a "dangerous or potentially dangerous" fault.

J_R

MascotDec85 wrote: »

I'd have to disagree with this paragraph completely. A tester is quite within their rights to mark a pupil in the car controls section for a minor or serious fault. What you've basically said above is that a learner will only be given a Grade 3 fault during the test given that a Grade 3 is described as a "dangerous or potentially dangerous" fault.

Hi,

My bad, should also have said Grade 1 and Grade 2's as well.

My point, there has to be a reason for an examiner to mark, which an instructor should fully explain

MascotDec85

J_R wrote: »

Hi,

My bad, should also have said Grade 1 and Grade 2's as well.

My point, there has to be a reason for an examiner to mark, which an instructor should fully explain

I totally understand your point but for the benefit for the learners it was important to clarify so that it was totally clear.

J_R

MascotDec85 wrote: »

I totally understand your point but for the benefit for the learners it was important to clarify so that it was totally clear.

Hi

Quite understand. When posting was obviously thinking of the specific case just posted. That instructor said her pupil would fail the test, hence grade 3 was uppermost in mind

Stevegpz80

jacdaniel2014 wrote: »

Hi All

So last month I started driving lessons as a complete beginner and I am now on lesson 8.  The first few lessons were kind of terrible but eventually I started to get the hang of it a lot better.  The main problem I have now is stopping the car in the correct position.  I tend to constantly fall a few feet short of were I need to be. 
The technique my instructor is teaching me is to come down the gears. 
My understanding is, if for example I am driving in 3rd gear and I see a Yield sign ahead, I would do the following.
Come off the gas.
Very gently tip the brake.
Clutch down and into 2nd gear. 
Clutch up
Still have foot over the brake but barely pressing it.
Clutch down and roll the final metre or 2.
Brake to stop
1st gear. 

Is it just that I'm a bit nervous and too heavy on the brake or braking too soon maybe, or is my technique wrong?  It's very frustrating
Its similar for roundabouts, I'm too slow coming into it.

All practice and how your taught I was taught to go down the gears. I find after a while you can judge where the car needs to stop. Practice and more practice just passed today myself good luck In future.

appledrop

Your instructor is right of course you should be going down the gears when you know you are going to stop. Obviously if you have to stop quickly in higher gear you can but you should learn the right way. I hated driving when I started needed losds of lrssons but now 10 years later drive a lot every day a long commute +love it. Hang in there!

shamrock55

I passed my truck test a few months back and was told go down through the gears as any coasting would go against me,now I could block change down but would have to be at the right speed for the gear,might be different in a car I can't remember tbh