How many guns allowed in a house?

Bili

How many shotguns can I keep before a monitored house alarm is needed? I thought my secured gun safe was good enough but I'm renewing the licences at the moment and a guard rang this morning to warn me that the superintendent will want a house alarm for the 3 shotguns.

cookimonster

ANNEX C: SECURE STORAGE OF FIREARMS SECURE STORAGE OF LEGALLY HELD FIREARMS

One of the main objectives of imposing conditions, when granting certificates for firearms, is to ensure their safe custody at all times. In the interests of public safety or the peace, a superintendent or chief superintendent may attach or revoke any such conditions as that issuing person deems necessary.

The type and number of firearms held by an individual will require different levels of security. In general, however, all firearms should be stored within structurally solid buildings, purpose built firearm security cabinets or gun rooms. Under no circumstances should firearms or ammunition be left, even for short periods of time, in temporary dwellings (tents etc) or unattended vehicles as these are not secure.

Attention is drawn to Statutory Instrument No: 307 of 2009: Firearms (Secure Accommodation) Order, 2009, which defines the minimum security required for firearms. As is evident from this S.I. there is not an automatic requirement for a holder of one non restricted shotgun to provide a gun safe for their firearm, but a superintendent may attach that condition if of the view that, in the circumstances of an individual case, it is necessary in the interests of public safety and the peace. The S.I. stipulates:
(1) One non-restricted shotgun: The shotgun shall be disassembled and each part shall be stored securely and separately when not in use. The trigger housing shall be secured against use with an appropriate trigger lock.

(2) One restricted firearm, or three or fewer non-restricted firearms: Each firearm shall be stored securely in a gun safe which meets standard BS 7558 and which shall be securely fixed to a solid structure.

(3) Two restricted firearms, or, more than three non-restricted firearms: Each firearm shall be stored in a gun safe which meets standard BS 7558 and which shall be securely fixed to a solid structure. The place in which the firearms are stored shall have an alarm fitted and the external doors to the place shall be fitted with locks which comply with BS 3621.

(4) Three or more restricted firearms or six or more firearms, of any type, kept in the same place: In addition to the standards specified at reference number 3, the place in which the firearms are stored shall have an intruder alarm system, installed and maintained by installers licensed by the Private Security Authority which complies with I.S. EN 50131 or an equivalent standard approved by the Commissioner of the Garda S?och?na.
. The alarm shall be connected to a monitoring service, operated by a person licensed by the Private Security Authority and supported with GSM mobile telephone service back up signalling facilities.

MarcinG

Could one expkain me 3? Is it stating safe for each gun? Or is it poor wording/ my english?

cavan shooter

3 or fewer shotguns does not require a monitored alarm.

BattleCorp

cavan shooter wrote: »

3 or fewer shotguns does not require a monitored alarm.

3 or fewer shotguns does not require a monitored alarm according to the guidelines but the Super/Chief Super is allowed to insist on you having a higher level of security than the guidelines state.

I'd be showing these guidelines to the Gardaí stating that a monitored alarm isn't needed in these circumstances but ..........pardon the pun.......if the Chief sticks to his guns, then unfortunately the OP will have to dance to his tune.

MarcinG....... It's not one safe for each gun. You can have many guns in one safe.

Luckysasha

BattleCorp wrote: »

3 or fewer shotguns does not require a monitored alarm according to the guidelines but the Super/Chief Super is allowed to insist on you having a higher level of security than the guidelines state.

I'd be showing these guidelines to the Gardaí stating that a monitored alarm isn't needed in these circumstances but ..........pardon the pun.......if the Chief sticks to his guns, then unfortunately the OP will have to dance to his tune.

MarcinG....... It's not one safe for each gun. You can have many guns in one safe.

Just on that I was made get a separate safe for my pistol. The FO wouldn't sign off as such until I had a second safe installed away from my rifle safe and a separate lock box for the ammo. The pistol safe and rifle safe couldn't even be in the same room. So best to check with your local lad first

BattleCorp

Luckysasha wrote: »

Just on that I was made get a separate safe for my pistol. The FO wouldn't sign off as such until I had a second safe installed away from my rifle safe and a separate lock box for the ammo. The pistol safe and rifle safe couldn't even be in the same room. So best to check with your local lad first

Some of my conditions include safes in different rooms, rifles disassembled and bits of them stored in different safes, safe in the car etc.

Cass

The horrible part about SI 307/2009 is they are minimum standards.


Most lads read the categories and think "that's all i need, they cannot make me get a house alarm, etc". As Battlecrop said, yes they can. As the SI states these to be minimum standards it means you must have the security outlined in each category for the amount of firearms you have AT A MINIMUM. If the Super/Chief Super, via the CPO, deems this to be insufficient s/he can impose a higher level or even security not outlined within the SI and you must satisfy it to gain the license.

Now that doesn't mean a moat around the house and sharks with fricking lasers on their heads. The security demands must be "reasonable". IOW they must be for a valid reason and not simply because the Super/Chief Super wants to see you spend money.

tac foley

Cass wrote: »

Now that doesn't mean a moat around the house and sharks with fricking lasers on their heads.

NOW you've done it, Cass. If the Chief Constable of Cambridgeshire sees that, I'm toast.

It'll be the very next thing he demands in the interests of public safety, mark my words.

tac

Cass

tac foley wrote: »

It'll be the very next thing he demands in the interests of public safety, mark my words.

Simple solution if he asks for it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HJxya0CWco

J.R.

MarcinG wrote: »

Could one expkain me 3? Is it stating safe for each gun?

All the guns can be in one safe.....you can have 3 / 4 / or more guns in one safe........no need for a safe for each gun.

RossiFan08

In (3) when it says "The place in which the firearms are stored shall have an alarm fitted and the external doors to the place shall be fitted with locks which comply with BS 3621."

The external doors refer to the external doors on the house and not the doors on the home where the safe is?

Is this correct?

BattleCorp

RossiFan08 wrote: »

In (3) when it says "The place in which the firearms are stored shall have an alarm fitted and the external doors to the place shall be fitted with locks which comply with BS 3621."

The external doors refer to the external doors on the house and not the doors on the home where the safe is?

Is this correct?

Yes, doors of the house.

Cass

I've seen and heard of lads that have a room in the house, where the guns are stored, alarmed only.

Vizzy

RossiFan08 wrote: »

In (3) when it says "The place in which the firearms are stored shall have an alarm fitted and the external doors to the place shall be fitted with locks which comply with BS 3621."

The external doors refer to the external doors on the house and not the doors on the home where the safe is?

Is this correct?

Give it a few weeks and I will be able to give you a definitive answer as I am waiting on a new application and I reckon that this is the only issue where I am not covered.:)

BattleCorp

Vizzy wrote: »

Give it a few weeks and I will be able to give you a definitive answer as I am waiting on a new application and I reckon that this is the only issue where I am not covered.:)

Not to be awkward or contradictory but you won't be able to give a definitive answer as not all Gardaí are singing from the same hymn sheet.

It's different rules in different districts. Unfortunately personal opinion comes into the equation.

Vizzy

BattleCorp wrote: »

Not to be awkward or contradictory but you won't be able to give a definitive answer as not all Gardaí are singing from the same hymn sheet.

It's different rules in different districts. Unfortunately personal opinion comes into the equation.

I know that alright, but I have had numerous applications/ substitutions/ renewals over the years which have gone without a hitch. But the Super changed recently, and whilst he is a lovely guy and a very good Garda ( very proactive in crime prevention) he has a particular hangup when it comes to multiple licences and I have been told unoffically that he may seize on "The place in which the firearms are stored shall have an alarm fitted and the external doors to the place shall be fitted with locks which comply with BS 3621." as a literal interpretation to mean that the actual rooms where my safes are stored must be alarmed, even though these rooms are not accessible unless you go through an alarmed area within the building.

Vizzy

As I thought - got a call from the Supers office last week and was asked a load of questions about why I wanted the extra gun, would I surrender one of my other guns,had I a safe, had I an alarm and was the actual room alarmed.
Told them no, I wouldn't surrender one of the guns and that I hadn't an alarm on the room itself but that it was impossible to enter the room without passing through an alarmed area.
" Oh that could be a problem cos the Super wants the room alarmed"

I explained that I actually had a monitored alarm( which I don't technically need) and that they were welcome to come to check my safety arrangements at any time and that my reading of the Regs was that the place (i.e. the house and not the room) needed to be alarmed.

Anyway, got a call today to say that the licence is on the way, just need to wait to see what conditions are on it (i.e. is there an "S" and what number of rounds can I have)

ezra_

I've a question on this ; say I have four guns, but two are stored in the range and two are stored at home.

Do I need the two at home stored in a house with an alarm?

Cass

Congrats on the license.

Vizzy wrote: »

....... would I surrender one of my other guns,

Hearing this more and more. I notice they didn't push it with you as the law doesn't say you have to, but it's a slightly concerning trend that seems to be making an appearance more and more in different districts.

ezra_ wrote: »

I've a question on this ; say I have four guns, but two are stored in the range and two are stored at home.

Do I need the two at home stored in a house with an alarm?

The one thing i would say it depends on is if you're licensed on the firearms. I know lads that store firearms at the range to avoid having to license them for this very reason.

If you're licensed on two then the minimum security standard for two unrestricted firearms apply. If you're licensed on all four then i'd imagine any Super would demand the security level for four firearms as there is no reason you cannot bring them home.

If the two on the range re not licensed to you then you cannot bring them home, hence the security would be a moot point.

Due to the SI calling for minimum standards a Super could very well impose the conditions of a "four gun home" on you regardless.

Vizzy

Cass,

As I said in an earlier post, the particular Super is trying to keep the number of guns in his District as low as possible. He is a grand lad, but this is his "thing" (others may have a hang up on speeding or drunk and disorderly or whatever).

I have 3 shotguns (all SxS) but they all have particular relevance for me.
I suppose if I was foolish enough to concede to surrendering one of the guns, then I suppose he felt what was the harm in asking.

That said, once you can justify your reason for having the gun, and you are of good character ,you will generally get the licence.
The "room" being alarmed was a new one on me though.

Bili

Thanks for the replies. I rang the guard back and he has misread the regulations so I can keep the guns at home in a gun cabinet. Licenses have been approved to the Super must have been happy with that.