LED Street Lights vs Sodium Streetlights

Well for one it means they've skimped on important filtering components, quiet common. So that means they probably skimped on quality components and/or have a poor circuit design and most likely don't comply with regulation in regard to radio interference.

Dimmer switches will most likely cause buzzing so I'm talking LED bulbs not connected to dimmers.

You know a funny thing, most cheap LED bulbs I got and binned because of radio interference, ( yes, I'm a radio enthusiast and listen to HAM radio operators and listen to Shortwave radio, very fascinating stuff) anyway, I had to bin the bulbs and guess what brand bulbs I got ? yes, Philips. They cause a buzzing up really close but more than a few feet they're fine, as it should be but it just shows the quality difference.

Some LED bulbs are so bad that they actually send this radio interference throughout the mains wiring which then acts like a gigantic antenna ! A real headache for a lot of Ham radio operates these days in built up areas.

Some power supplies like mobile phone and laptop chargers also cause woeful interference, but that would take a bit of explaining why and how it came to be.

And the Philips bulbs also closely match their lumen output, forget about watts, you want lumens and E.U law now states all bulbs are to carry this lumen output on a label.

For instance a 50 Watt Halogen Gu10 should have a lumen output of about 400 but some 50 watt equivalent GU10s have a lumen output as low as 250 and some 300 and this is why they're cheap.

Also some cheap bulbs are very white and not anything near halogen to appear brighter because colder light can have the effect of being brighter to our eyes. Naughty naughty !

Andy From Sligo

do you get RF interference from sodium as well on your radio's ? - i got a 70w SON outside with built in ignitor inside the bulb, and a capacitor next to the ballast in the housing - well the capacitor failed once (was tripping the mcb in the fuse board) and I have replaced it now, but for a while was running it without the capacitor until I got another one and noticed a bit of interference through TV , but only when the SON was starting up

Andy From Sligo

Deleted User wrote: »

Well for one it means they've skimped on important filtering components, quiet common. So that means they probably skimped on quality components and/or have a poor circuit design and most likely don't comply with regulation in regard to radio interference.

Dimmer switches will most likely cause buzzing so I'm talking LED bulbs not connected to dimmers.

You know a funny thing, most cheap LED bulbs I got and binned because of radio interference, ( yes, I'm a radio enthusiast and listen to HAM radio operators and listen to Shortwave radio, very fascinating stuff) anyway, I had to bin the bulbs and guess what brand bulbs I got ? yes, Philips. They cause a buzzing up really close but more than a few feet they're fine, as it should be but it just shows the quality difference.

Some LED bulbs are so bad that they actually send this radio interference throughout the mains wiring which then acts like a gigantic antenna ! A real headache for a lot of Ham radio operates these days in built up areas.

Some power supplies like mobile phone and laptop chargers also cause woeful interference, but that would take a bit of explaining why and how it came to be.

And the Philips bulbs also closely match their lumen output, forget about watts, you want lumens and E.U law now states all bulbs are to carry this lumen output on a label.

For instance a 50 Watt Halogen Gu10 should have a lumen output of about 400 but some 50 watt equivalent GU10s have a lumen output as low as 250 and some 300 and this is why they're cheap.

Also some cheap bulbs are very white and not anything near halogen to appear brighter because colder light can have the effect of being brighter to our eyes. Naughty naughty !

So, really when councils replace these sodiums with LED heads you really want them (or the contractors rather) to go with a Philips make quality or thereabouts ... but with so much more cheap imitations on the market these days there is a possibility to try and save money where they can as is the case these days (cheapness over quality) it is possible they could go for replacing with the cheaper brands.. which might not last as long, have poor colour rendering and cause interference and be more costly in the long run if they fail too quick ?

at least the old Sodium way , you just had your Ballast / Ignitor (which can last for years) and then your SON/SOX bulb and a photocell ... not as much really to go wrong as the components inside a LED head - nice and simple.

In the throw away world we live in I dare say later on down the line if an LED streetlamp head fails (even if it was a dry solder joint or a capacitor or resistor) - i cant really see them repairing said faulty LED head - for efficiency and convenience they will throw away old LED head and just replace it with another new complete unit I am thinking? - that could be well costly

Andy From Sligo

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

do you get RF interference from sodium as well on your radio's ? - i got a 70w SON outside with built in ignitor inside the bulb, and a capacitor next to the ballast in the housing - well the capacitor failed once (was tripping the mcb in the fuse board) and I have replaced it now, but for a while was running it without the capacitor until I got another one and noticed a bit of interference through TV , but only when the SON was starting up

I never noticed with Sodium, but I don't think so, perhaps when starting up.

Andy From Sligo

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

So, really when councils replace these sodiums with LED heads you really want them (or the contractors rather) to go with a Philips make quality or thereabouts ... but with so much more cheap imitations on the market these days there is a possibility to try and save money where they can as is the case these days (cheapness over quality) it is possible they could go for replacing with the cheaper brands.. which might not last as long, have poor colour rendering and cause interference and be more costly in the long run if they fail too quick ?

at least the old Sodium way , you just had your Ballast / Ignitor (which can last for years) and then your SON/SOX bulb and a photocell ... not as much really to go wrong as the components inside a LED head - nice and simple.

In the throw away world we live in I dare say later on down the line if an LED streetlamp head fails (even if it was a dry solder joint or a capacitor or resistor) - i cant really see them repairing said faulty LED head - for efficiency and convenience they will throw away old LED head and just replace it with another new complete unit I am thinking? - that could be well costly

I would hope that LED street lights would be of a higher quality but if they cause lots of heartache for Ham operators then they would have a good case to have them replaced or removed. They pay a license to operate and pay a lot of money for their equipment.

Ham operators have been successful in getting the ESB out to repair or sometimes replace dodgy transformers , connections on poles etc and often the ESB will happily oblige because it can often signal something is wrong.

Andy From Sligo

Deleted User wrote: »

With Sodium, you know fairly well how long it will last, with LED you do not. It can be a hit and miss, semiconductors are not as reliable as the tried and trusted Gas discharge lamp at least not in this stage of development, I've seen some fail in work a year or two after installation and they cost a pretty penny I heard.

Personally I hate yellow sodium lights and would rather see the back of that dirty filthy light and will welcome LED but they got to understand that some of them are a lot brighter and this is intolerable, they could save energy by installing a lower wattage bulb.

As I said beore, they don't need to and shouldn't be trying to turn the night into day. Apart from anything else it's not natural !

are you sure they are a lot brighter though or is it because they give of a crisp white daylite light rather than an incandescent bulb or warm white CFL / fluourescent tube?

in my experience I think the sodiums where brighter and there is a lot of dark spots after LED has replaced them because of the other way round that they havent matched the lumen of the sodium lamp and put in LED with a lot less lumen output - thats what I personally think whats going on.

I do note as well that the LED (all the ones I have seen) in the converted streetlamps when they are in an off state are clear .. and the lens of the streetlight cover is clear. - there is nothing 'frosted' to diffuse the light and stop shadows.

one advantage when say 4ft fluorescent tubes came out is that the manufacturers said put one of these in your kitchen to light up all areas and banish shadows - them tubes were coated/frosted white with phosphours inside the tube. but these LED's are clear .. I wonder why that is because when they retrofit a light with LED that the light does not seem to spread properly and diffuse the light and look so glarey? - even if they cannot get a replacement head with frosted LED bulbs in it, you would think they could use a frosted outer lens on the lap head so it would diffuse the light and cut down on glare?

I have experimented before with an incandescent 60w bulb before in a table lamp without a shade - I tried one with a 60w Frosted bulb and one with a clear 60w bulb and the frosted bulb was much better at diffusing the light for the room it was in and offered an even spread of light.

Andy From Sligo

Deleted User wrote: »

I would hope that LED street lights would be of a higher quality but if they cause lots of heartache for Ham operators then they would have a good case to have them replaced or removed. They pay a license to operate and pay a lot of money for their equipment.

Ham operators have been successful in getting the ESB out to repair or sometimes replace dodgy transformers , connections on poles etc and often the ESB will happily oblige because it can often signal something is wrong.

my wife's uncle in Malaga was heavily into Ham radio he passed away about 4 years back - was always chatting to me about when we met up it but it just went over my head

astrofool

Deleted User wrote: »

You know a funny thing, most cheap LED bulbs I got and binned because of radio interference, ( yes, I'm a radio enthusiast and listen to HAM radio operators and listen to Shortwave radio, very fascinating stuff) anyway, I had to bin the bulbs and guess what brand bulbs I got ? yes, Philips. They cause a buzzing up really close but more than a few feet they're fine, as it should be but it just shows the quality difference.

Philips are about a generation ahead of the rest with LED bulbs, they get twice the output of their rivals at the same size (or the same output but with bulbs half as big), they also have many higher wattage equivalents available, so you can banish shadows/have a times square look, at relatively low wattage.

Unfortunately the likes of Ham radio will keep taking a hit, the wireless spectrums are getting used for everything, and cross talk and QOS keep dropping (the mobile/internet/wifi companies will never say that after performing tests from inside a faraday cage, or do a Steve Jobs, and tell everyone else to turn their wireless off), nothing beats a wire for a signal

Andy From Sligo

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

my wife's uncle in Malaga was heavily into Ham radio he passed away about 4 years back - was always chatting to me about when we met up it but it just went over my head

Ham radio is a fascinating hobby, I love all the science behind it. Along with Shortwave Radio. LED bulbs can be a bad enemy of Radio enthusiasts.

Andy From Sligo

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

are you sure they are a lot brighter though or is it because they give of a crisp white daylite light rather than an incandescent bulb or warm white CFL / fluourescent tube?

in my experience I think the sodiums where brighter and there is a lot of dark spots after LED has replaced them because of the other way round that they havent matched the lumen of the sodium lamp and put in LED with a lot less lumen output - thats what I personally think whats going on.

I do note as well that the LED (all the ones I have seen) in the converted streetlamps when they are in an off state are clear .. and the lens of the streetlight cover is clear. - there is nothing 'frosted' to diffuse the light and stop shadows.

one advantage when say 4ft fluorescent tubes came out is that the manufacturers said put one of these in your kitchen to light up all areas and banish shadows - them tubes were coated/frosted white with phosphours inside the tube. but these LED's are clear .. I wonder why that is because when they retrofit a light with LED that the light does not seem to spread properly and diffuse the light and look so glarey? - even if they cannot get a replacement head with frosted LED bulbs in it, you would think they could use a frosted outer lens on the lap head so it would diffuse the light and cut down on glare?

I have experimented before with an incandescent 60w bulb before in a table lamp without a shade - I tried one with a 60w Frosted bulb and one with a clear 60w bulb and the frosted bulb was much better at diffusing the light for the room it was in and offered an even spread of light.

I don't think LEDs come close when it comes to lumen efficiency of low pressure sodium lamps, those are the real orange yellow light. These are used mainly for residential lighting, estates, country roads etc.

The High Pressure sodium is usually what you find at busier junctions , city etc, less orange/yellow in colour but less efficient but gives better colour.

I think the average low pressure light is about 35 watts and if I remember correctly LED would be about 90 watts for same light output but I'm not 100% certain on that and I stand to be corrected, they are too new and so many makes and types, it's not like your LPS V HPS V Mercury Vapor ( which there are some still around )

With LED bulbs I can see energy consumption go up so there's obviously another reason behind it, longer "estimated" service live V greater cost of replacing LPS or HPS bulbs ?

Councils couldn't care less about what looks better for us or they would never have installed that LPS sh1t and it's filthy polluting light to begin with qne never would have removed all the white mercury vapor light we all loved so it's obviously down to numbers but if it means getting white light back then so be it, it's far better than that yellow/orange light.

One installation of a really great installation of LED lamps is in Co Laois, almost Carlow Town on the ring road by the Talbot Hotel and on to the Border with Carlow where heading back into HPS yellow light is really rather depressing.

This is another way of describing HPS/LPS light and that's depressing.

This is what I managed to scrape off Google in relation to the Leinster express.

" Laois County Council is replacing all yellow streetlights in Laois with low cost energy LED white lights, as part of a national review, to save money and improve CCTV images."

Notice All yellow street lights, this is brilliant if they are the same lights as I have seen. It's a shame other councils don't see the light haha.

The Problem with LED V LPS/HPS is that a LPS/HPS bulb is a LPS/HPS bulb but there are so many variations of LED street lights. Perhaps some day there will be a proper standard for street lighting, for outdoors I'm always a fan of cold white that's about 6000K Colour temp.

Andy From Sligo

[Deleted User] wrote: »

This is what I managed to scrape off Google in relation to the Leinster express.

" Laois County Council is replacing all yellow streetlights in Laois with low cost energy LED white lights, as part of a national review, to save money and improve CCTV images."

Notice All yellow street lights, this is brilliant if they are the same lights as I have seen. It's a shame other councils don't see the light haha.

The Problem with LED V LPS/HPS is that a LPS/HPS bulb is a LPS/HPS bulb but there are so many variations of LED street lights. Perhaps some day there will be a proper standard for street lighting, for outdoors I'm always a fan of cold white that's about 6000K Colour temp.

Oh no, 6000k far too cool , can't beat 2700k or thereabouts.i really am going to miss the yellow glow of a Sox.

Fierce price a 35w Sox bulb was last time I looked . Got a Philips 80w son(I) bulb few weeks back for a tenner on a trade electrical counter for my outside light.

So, the Laois council are going to change all their lps Sox's to led then ... Even if there is still a lot of lamp life left in their Sox lamps. Seems uneconomical and unnecessary to me if there is still a lot of life left in the bulb but that's what I think.

Jaysus, you'd actually install a LPS yellow light in your yard ? holy crap lol. Has to be cold white for me. haha.

I love white street light, you can actually see things in pretty much their actual colour. Yellow light infects everything in that filthy colour.

Capt'n Midnight

Deleted User wrote: »

Get a battery powered portable radio, switch to MW and if the LEDs drive the radio nuts more then several feet on MW then you got junk LED bulbs. If they cause a buzzing all over the house then their pure dirt and you could find a HAM radio Enthusist knocking at your door , yes a lot of them are that bad !

Bring them back and geet good brand named bulbs like Philips.

It's the switched mode power supplies that cause the Radio Interference, especially with CFL's.

Andy From Sligo wrote:

This is where the super cheap LED's win. They run directly off the mains using the only the yellow capacitor to limit current.

The black electrolytic one says 105 degrees but YMMV on how long it could last at that temperature.

LEDs themselves don't like too much heat either.

Oddly enough incandescent bulbs last twice as long if you drop power by 5% and if you ramp them up by 5% they only last half as long but are more efficient as a greater % of the energy is given off as visible light. This is one reason why Christmas tree bulbs used to be forever blowing. Sovyes if you want more Lumens it's cheaper to run incandescents harder even though it means changing them more often.

The nice thing about the low-pressure sodium was they were fairly easy for astronomers to filter out. Not so for the high pressure sodium or fluorescent (including LED).

Andy From Sligo

Deleted User wrote: »

Jaysus, you'd actually install a LPS yellow light in your yard ? holy crap lol. Has to be cold white for me. haha.

I love white street light, you can actually see things in pretty much their actual colour. Yellow light infects everything in that filthy colour.

no I have a couple of SON 70w - wouldn't have SOX LPS in my yard ... got a tarmac drive I would have a sox on a corner bracket of the house shining down on the tarmac drive but weighing up the cost of the bracket and arm and the SOX light and the replacement of a LPS bulb I decided in the end to go for SON70w floodlight fitting 40euro including bulb and replacement 70w SON bulbs a tenner when needed but the SON last ages/years

Lovely to have a warm colour the SON HPS give in the yard and front of the house, much nicer than white light.

We have a SOX lamp on the road outside our house on the road and funny enough the other week there it started flashing like a bugger and then some nights not come on at all - really dark on the road without it, so anyway I went on Electric Skyline website, they have a section to report a faulty or broken street lamp - you just put down the number written on the column and the location. After I did that I thought, why the hell did I do that, I bet they replace it now with a white LED head and it will not match all the other SOX LPS on the rest of the road.

About 3 days later at around 8pm I heard the rumble of an engine - looked out window , guy on electric skyline lift up at lamp head changing SOX bulb - yes! win/win - LPS lives to see another day!

Not a fan of either light but each to their own, thankfully white is coming back !

Andy From Sligo

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

.... The nice thing about the low-pressure sodium was they were fairly easy for astronomers to filter out. Not so for the high pressure sodium or fluorescent (including LED).

really! - well thats good then, i dodnt know that - its something to do with the colour spectrum or something isnt it or infra red light?

Andy From Sligo

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

...Oddly enough incandescent bulbs last twice as long if you drop power by 5% and if you ramp them up by 5% they only last half as long

I found out that if you dim a Halogen bulb / reduce its voltage (say if its a 12v 55w car bulb and you run it at 9v or 6v it looses its Halogen features and reverts to operating as a normal incandescent gas bulb because the halogen as inside is not as hot as it should be

Andy From Sligo

one of the best channels on youtube is Photoinduction

you couldnt do this cool thing with these new fangled LED's:

Andy From Sligo

Deleted User wrote: »

Not a fan of either light but each to their own, thankfully white is coming back !

... and upsetting nature, having animals and humans thinking its daytime when they are lit

Andy From Sligo

Was down with my Daughter at her Student digs in Athlone tonight, car park lit up quite bright (bright white light) - she has a balcony, so naturally had to go out to see what light it was - at first thought, I thought it was a Metal Halide because it was so bright - but on the balcony I could get right near the lamp , looked on its label and it was 70watt LED - wow, some bright light out of it - so I dont know what lumens but if say a 10w LED gives equivalent of 60w bulb - whats a 70w LED eqivilent of? (I was never good at maths but its got to be around 500watts isnt it?) per lamp and there were about 10 of these LED lights flood lighting up the car park.

Could be depends on the Lumen output really.

In my work place before they replaced with bright white light the bright yellow sodium used to have the birds singing and flying around all night so it's not unique to white light or white LED light.

Turning night into day is wrong and with all this cheap LED light it's going to get much, much worse in the next decade or two. Lights installed where previously wouldn't be dreamed of the problem needs to be addressed sooner rather than later.

Andy From Sligo

whoever said about road lights burning all night with hardly any cars on the road i kind of get that it seems crazy -

was on a long stretch of road travelling back from Athlone to Roscommon town last night at around 11.30pm and there was a large presence of bright LED floodlighting the road (wasnt even any junctions or houses or any buildings from what I could see) , was very decent and wide road but as I say a load of what seemed like shiny new LED street lights lit up to basically no-one - and were most probably going to stay alight like that for the rest of the hole night. - when they ran out the cars main beam headlights served perfectly on the road

There's motorway junctions lit up all over the Island 2 km both sides and I find this ridiculous.

Then the crappy junctions on country roads claimed to be for safety but in reality most of the crashes are caused by bad driving not poor lighting.

There's substantial savings to be made from turning off certain street lights at night, granted you can't turn them off in estates but they can be dimmed or turn out every 2nd light.

In reality there's not much electricity savings to be made from led lighting because yellow sodium lights still offer better bang per watt but where leds make the greatest and Mose pleasant difference is the wonderful white light. Yellow light is very depressing.

Yes I see so much led flood lighting now and it's just getting crazy.

I think we need light pollution regulations.

Andy From Sligo

Deleted User wrote: »

There's motorway junctions lit up all over the Island 2 km both sides and I find this ridiculous.

Then the crappy junctions on country roads claimed to be for safety but in reality most of the crashes are caused by bad driving not poor lighting.

There's substantial savings to be made from turning off certain street lights at night, granted you can't turn them off in estates but they can be dimmed or turn out every 2nd light.

In reality there's not much electricity savings to be made from led lighting because yellow sodium lights still offer better bang per watt but where leds make the greatest and Mose pleasant difference is the wonderful white light. Yellow light is very depressing.

Yes I see so much led flood lighting now and it's just getting crazy.

I think we need light pollution regulations.

its surprising when you say you find the yellow light depressing and I and it seems most people I have spoke to find the sodium lights more warm and cosy, and LED bright glarey and harsh light.

I'd agree with Junctions and roundabouts and slip roads being lit with street lamps - but these long straight roads with no junctions or slip roads or roundabouts or houses or shop or factory about being lit like that a bit pointless - mind you if the have paths or cycleways there maybe its in the plans to have street lighting there , and thats what they were doing lit.

So for the brightness of LED to match sodium 70w LED seems to be whats required - but SOX LPS at 35w gives off a fair amount of light (I know you get higher wattage LPS for motorways) and so if you have a 70w LED replacing a 70w SON HPS , as you say, yep no saving at all - strange that.

I think the Motorway lights are HPS which are not as yellow or should I say orange, the LPS are not as bright and more orange which I find horrid as it turns everything that filthy colour.

I've seen some great LED installations and some not so good but it's nice to see white light again they just don't need to go out and find the brightest bulbs they can buy ffs and we should reming them of that too.

There's just too much light all night, should turn off a lot of it come 11 PM and in residential areas after about midnight.

It works in Germany, 11 Pm and whether you're coming home from the Pup or not you'll need a flashlight they don't turn off all lights of course, towns would be lit up it would be more in residential areas when most people are inside and heading to bed and the difference it makes to the night sky is amazing. They will turn off certain street lights on roads too. What's the point of having them on all night ?

Andy From Sligo

Deleted User wrote: »

I think the Motorway lights are HPS which are not as yellow or should I say orange, the LPS are not as bright and more orange which I find horrid as it turns everything that filthy colour.

I've seen some great LED installations and some not so good but it's nice to see white light again they just don't need to go out and find the brightest bulbs they can buy ffs and we should reming them of that too.

There's just too much light all night, should turn off a lot of it come 11 PM and in residential areas after about midnight.

It works in Germany, 11 Pm and whether you're coming home from the Pup or not you'll need a flashlight they don't turn off all lights of course, towns would be lit up it would be more in residential areas when most people are inside and heading to bed and the difference it makes to the night sky is amazing. They will turn off certain street lights on roads too. What's the point of having them on all night ?

it would feel weird - especially on housing estates if they went off after 11 or 12 pm ... i dare say at the beginning the council would be getting an ear-hole bashing ("I pay my rates and all that") there could be a rise in crime attributed to it maybe .. but after that transition after a while maybe people will live with it and get used to it.

I wonder what wattage those HPS on the motorways are? - got to be in the region of 250w or more Son HPS a piece haven't they?

Ubbquittious

Deleted User wrote: »

I think the Motorway lights are HPS which are not as yellow or should I say orange, the LPS are not as bright and more orange which I find horrid as it turns everything that filthy colour.

I've seen some great LED installations and some not so good but it's nice to see white light again they just don't need to go out and find the brightest bulbs they can buy ffs and we should reming them of that too.

There's just too much light all night, should turn off a lot of it come 11 PM and in residential areas after about midnight.

It works in Germany, 11 Pm and whether you're coming home from the Pup or not you'll need a flashlight they don't turn off all lights of course, towns would be lit up it would be more in residential areas when most people are inside and heading to bed and the difference it makes to the night sky is amazing. They will turn off certain street lights on roads too. What's the point of having them on all night ?

Of course it works in Germany. Everything works in Germany 100% of the time and everything they do is pure common sense.

There hasn't been a train late or a powercut in Germany since 1945. Snow is preemptively cleared before it hits the ground, nothing ever closes and they never run out of money or beer.

Why the sarcasm ? I didn't say everything the Germans do is perfect but this is something that makes a lot of sense and it's really cool to look up at the night sky and see so many stars in such detail something we're deprived of in so many parts of the world.

And another thing is in Germany I never see rubbish thrown in ditches in black sacks like I see this all over Ireland , it's a disgrace and it's very embarrassing when my Partners Parent's come over and I have to listen to their absolute disgust of the state of this country and they're 100% correct it's an embarrassment and makes me ashamed.