Parental leave - when your employer refuses it

76544567

Im self employed so this doesnt really effect me directly, but im just curious if I can help.
My sister and her 3 year old son was going to stay with for June and July (so the kids could spend time together and giver my sis a bit of a break) in Spain and has applied for parental leave.
She has asked for 9 weeks parental leave and has been refused by her employer.

I am told that the employer can only defer this once for 6 months.

The problem is that the next window that our apartment is available (not rented at the time) is next Jun, July, August (2018). So we thought we might do it then.

Her employer still isnt playing ball.

They said she can defer for 6 months from when she last applied (March 2017), so she could take it in Sep 2017. So she said no, id like to defer it until May 2018 instead please. Employer refused saying its exactly 6 months deferral or it starts again.

Surely thats not the case is it? But I cant find anything online that makes this clear. Everything says employer can defer for 6 months. it doesnt say that if 6 months deferral doesnt suit that the employee can defer for 6 months plus a few more months instead.

Does anyone know what the exact rule is.

ie if the employer says no, to the first request can my sister say fine, ill defer it for 10 months instead of just 6.

Basically every time she applies the employer intends to refuse. If she applies 6 months before she really intends to go to coincide with the deferra that the employer will surely apply then the employer will just grant it for that time instead to mess her up on purpose.

Nody

76544567 wrote: »

Im self employed so this doesnt really effect me directly, but im just curious if I can help.
My sister and her 3 year old son was going to stay with for June and July (so the kids could spend time together and giver my sis a bit of a break) in Spain and has applied for parental leave.
She has asked for 9 weeks parental leave and has been refused by her employer.

I am told that the employer can only defer this once for 6 months.

The problem is that the next window that our apartment is available (not rented at the time) is next Jun, July, August (2018). So we thought we might do it then.

Her employer still isnt playing ball.

They said she can defer for 6 months from when she last applied (March 2017), so she could take it in Sep 2017. So she said no, id like to defer it until May 2018 instead please. Employer refused saying its exactly 6 months deferral or it starts again.

Surely thats not the case is it? But I cant find anything online that makes this clear. Everything says employer can defer for 6 months. it doesnt say that if 6 months deferral doesnt suit that the employee can defer for 6 months plus a few more months instead.

Does anyone know what the exact rule is.

ie if the employer says no, to the first request can my sister say fine, ill defer it for 10 months instead of just 6.

Basically every time she applies the employer intends to refuse. If she applies 6 months before she really intends to go to coincide with the deferra that the employer will surely apply then the employer will just grant it for that time instead to mess her up on purpose.

Sorry but your sister can say she wants to defer it 10 but that would be a new application because the maximum deferral by an employee is 6 months and as far as I can see there's not going to be anything stopping them from blocking every summer (and offer in September instead). Same way they can defer if she tries to take November and December off by only 2 months for example to avoid pushing her into the summer vacation period.

judeboy101

How many kids has she op? She can take back to back with 3 take a whole year off?

76544567

judeboy101 wrote: »

How many kids has she op? She can take back to back with 3 take a whole year off?

She only has one. She only wants the summer off anyway though.
Her company are just asshats. She said they do this to everyone about everything. Said there's a joke in there that if you want a raise you should ask for a pay cut and they'll do the opposite to what you want.

Stheno

What was the reason for refusing her request?

76544567

Stheno wrote: »

What was the reason for refusing her request?

They said she is needed during the time she has requested. It's bull though and just an xcuse to refuse it. She is no more needed at that time than she is the rest of the year. They just don't want anyone to take it i guess and will do anything to stop someone getting actual use out of it.

titan18

76544567 wrote: »

They said she is needed during the time she has requested. It's bull though and just an xcuse to refuse it. She is no more needed at that time than she is the rest of the year. They just don't want anyone to take it i guess and will do anything to stop someone getting actual use out of it.

Why would that be bull? Not sure what job is but June and July would be a popular time for holidays. Others could have booked that time off already and company might not have resources to allow an extra person off.

judeboy101

Ask for Dec /jan off problem solved.

76544567

titan18 wrote: »

Why would that be bull? Not sure what job is but June and July would be a popular time for holidays. Others could have booked that time off already and company might not have resources to allow an extra person off.

Nobody has holidays booked off because they don't allow booking your holidays until 4 weeks before. That's why she wanted to take the parental leave, so she could book holidays in advance of 4 weeks.
She just wanted to use it before the children started school and get some use out of it.

eviltwin

76544567 wrote: »

Nobody has holidays booked off because they don't allow booking your holidays until 4 weeks before. That's why she wanted to take the parental leave, so she could book holidays in advance of 4 weeks.
She just wanted to use it before the children started school and get some use out of it.

Reasonable assumption that June, July and August will be in high demand for time off

76544567

judeboy101 wrote: »

Ask for Dec /jan off problem solved.

They would say yes to that because they know she doesn't actually want Dec/Jan off.
She shouldn't have let them know when she wanted off really in the first place.

bee06

76544567 wrote: »

Nobody has holidays booked off because they don't allow booking your holidays until 4 weeks before. That's why she wanted to take the parental leave, so she could book holidays in advance of 4 weeks.
She just wanted to use it before the children started school and get some use out of it.

So it sounds like she wanted to use her parental leave to get first dibs on the holiday period over her co-workers resulting in limiting the number of staff who could take holidays at the same time. That doesn't really seem very fair to me.

Senna

If the job hasn't any season demand changes and they would be will to give the leave in winter time, then it sounds like the company do not want to give the whole of peak holiday season off to one person, meaning others can't take holidays when the kids are off.
Your sisters child isn't even at school so it sounds like she only wants the summer off to suit cheap holiday accommodation.

Sounds like the company don't like one staff member taking the mickey in high season, stopping others who have children at school taking holidays when it's the only time they can.

76544567

Senna wrote: »

If the job hasn't any season demand changes and they would be will to give the leave in winter time, then it sounds like the company do not want to give the whole of peak holiday season off to one person, meaning others can't take holidays when the kids are off.
Your sisters child isn't even at school so it sounds like she only wants the summer off to suit cheap holiday accommodation.

Sounds like the company don't like one staff member taking the mickey in high season, stopping others who have children at school taking holidays when it's the only time they can.

Only one other person out of about 20 working im the same job as her there has children so nobody takes time off in the summer at all.
Another woman asked for Jan and Feb last year and got told she could have it in July and august instead.
I already explained why she wants the weeks she does off in the op.

Anyway, i was just asking because i just wanted to see if she had any other options. I assumed she should have but it seems she is right and she has none.

So i guess she will go with her original plan and just give her notice a few weeks before she comes over and just get another job when she comes back. Same difference as unpaid leave except she has to get a new job when she comes back. She says her industry is so boyant that she will have another job even before she comes back.

I heard before alright that Japanese companies treat their staff like that, but this is the first time ive seen it first hand.

gordongekko

76544567 wrote: »

Only one other person out of about 20 working im the same job as her there has children so nobody takes time off in the summer at all.

Nobody takes their summer holidays during the summer?

You dont have to have kids to want holidays during the summer

76544567

gordongekko wrote: »

Nobody takes their summer holidays during the summer?

You dont have to have kids to want holidays during the summer

Also in my experience very few people who don't have to, usually because they had children, ever took their annual leave in the summer.
It's three times the price for starters.
I've always found may and sept to be the most popular months for holidays for anyone without kids.

But no matter. I was just looking for alternative options for her to get the parental leave for the time she wants, without her quitting her job. If anyone has any it would be nice to hear them.

If there are no options she's going to quit anyway , so she has solved her own problem. I'm just sticking my nose in out of brotherly love, though it's probably neither wanted nor needed.

Also curiosity on my part too as i have several employees and always have them the parental leave they wanted when it came up and will.continue to.

yabadabado

76544567 wrote: »

Also in my experience very few people who don't have to, usually because they had children, ever took their annual leave in the summer.
It's three times the price for starters.
I've always found may and sept to be the most popular months for holidays for anyone without kids.

.

That's garbage imo.

76544567

yabadabado wrote: »

That's garbage imo.

Why the animosity? Have i done something to you I'm not aware of?

titan18

yabadabado wrote:

That's garbage imo.

I'd agree, as someone in charge of holidays for 70 odd people, July and August are the two busiest months that people request holidays for, bar the few days around Easter and Paddy's Day

76544567

titan18 wrote: »

I'd agree, as someone in charge of holidays for 70 odd people, July and August are the two busiest months that people request holidays for, bar the few days around Easter and Paddy's Day

So lets assume lm wrong and a team of people without kids predominantly like to have their holidays in July and august.

I suppose it's not really relevant to the original question i asked in the op anyway, so it doesn't really matter who is right about it at the end of the day.

So if anyone can give me options that mean she can take her parental leave for the weeks she wants would be great?

I can even filter down the question to

How can a parent take their parental leave in the months they want it if their employer wants to prevent them getting the months they want just out of a policy for not ever being nice to the staff.

Or put another way.

I have staff and i don't like them getting things their way. Is there any way they can get around my efforts to prevent them getting the particular time they want off for their parental leave time?

Stheno

76544567 wrote: »

So lets assume lm wrong and a team of people without kids predominantly like to have their holidays in July and august.


I can even filter down the question to

How can a parent take their parental leave in the months they want it if their employer wants to prevent them getting the months they want just out of a policy for not ever being nice to the staff.

I'd say you are wrong on the holiday front TBH I sail as a hobby and take more of my days off in July and August for regattas
As to your second if operational needs are cited for saying no that's fine according to citizens information

Just google parental leave and you'll get the link

Naos

76544567 wrote: »

Also in my experience very few people who don't have to, usually because they had children, ever took their annual leave in the summer.

It's three times the price for starters.

Do you know why it's "three times the price"? Because it's the most popular time.
Do you know why it's the most popular time? Because people are taking time off work to go then.

76544567

Can we forget the months involved and the needless toing and froing about when people without school going kids (or sailors) are more likely to take time off in July and August. Its actually irrelevant. I shouldnt have even mentioned the months involved.


the question, put in two different ways


How can a parent take their parental leave in the months they want it if their employer wants to prevent them getting the months they want just out of a policy for not ever being nice to the staff.

Or put another way.

I have staff and i don't like them getting things their way. Is there any way they can get around my efforts to prevent them getting the particular time they want off for their parental leave time?

If there is no way to do it thats fine. But if there is I would like to hear it.

youandme13

Actually it's not garbage it's well known fact flights + holiday prices soar up for July and August. I'd sooner spend less and go in may / June or September etc

Stheno

76544567 wrote: »

Can we forget the months involved and the needless toing and froing about when people without school going kids (or sailors) are more likely to take time off in July and August. Its actually irrelevant. I shouldnt have even mentioned the months involved.


the question, put in two different ways


How can a parent take their parental leave in the months they want it if their employer wants to prevent them getting the months they want just out of a policy for not ever being nice to the staff.

Or put another way.

I have staff and i don't like them getting things their way. Is there any way they can get around my efforts to prevent them getting the particular time they want off for their parental leave time?

If there is no way to do it thats fine. But if there is I would like to hear it.

I've told you already there isnt

F1ngers

Stheno wrote: »

I've told you already there isnt

That's not the answer he wants though.
You should know how it works...:p

76544567

Stheno wrote: »

I've told you already there isnt

I guess if you are the only authority on the subject then case closed.


Thanks for the PMs guys. Some good ideas there. I'll pass them on.

And for all the constructive replies in the thread. Thankyou too.

Stheno

76544567 wrote: »

I guess if you are the only authority on the subject then case closed.


Thanks for the PMs guys. Some good ideas there. I'll pass them on.

And for all the constructive replies in the thread. Thankyou too.

You've asked the same question multiple times waiting for the answer you want tbh

Ginger83

76544567 wrote: »

Only one other person out of about 20 working im the same job as her there has children so nobody takes time off in the summer at all.
Another woman asked for Jan and Feb last year and got told she could have it in July and august instead.
I already explained why she wants the weeks she does off in the op.

Anyway, i was just asking because i just wanted to see if she had any other options. I assumed she should have but it seems she is right and she has none.

So i guess she will go with her original plan and just give her notice a few weeks before she comes over and just get another job when she comes back. Same difference as unpaid leave except she has to get a new job when she comes back. She says her industry is so boyant that she will have another job even before she comes back.

I heard before alright that Japanese companies treat their staff like that, but this is the first time ive seen it first hand.

Ah the old i'm not getting what i want so i'm leaving.

OP... if your sisters place is that bad she should move jobs anyway. I worked in a similar place and we had a saying also "the only thing a good worker gets in here is more work". Its disheartening to take a paycut "to save the company" and have the MD turn up in a new Maserati. Time to move me thinks.

3DataModem

76544567 wrote: »

So lets assume lm wrong and a team of people without kids predominantly like to have their holidays in July and august.

I suppose it's not really relevant to the original question i asked in the op anyway, so it doesn't really matter who is right about it at the end of the day.

So if anyone can give me options that mean she can take her parental leave for the weeks she wants would be great?

I can even filter down the question to

How can a parent take their parental leave in the months they want it if their employer wants to prevent them getting the months they want just out of a policy for not ever being nice to the staff.

Or put another way.

I have staff and i don't like them getting things their way. Is there any way they can get around my efforts to prevent them getting the particular time they want off for their parental leave time?

They can't.

76544567

Stheno wrote: »

You've asked the same question multiple times waiting for the answer you want tbh

I got some options by pm.
I'm not waiting for the answer i want. I don't know the answer, that's why i asked.
I'm not going anywhere, I'll be looking back to see if there are any other options of course. Why wouldn't I.

davo10

You seem to be asking two questions, is the employers response to a request for parental leave legal? and, is there any other way that my sister can take holidays when she wants during the summer months?

The response would seem to be legal, and the preference for June/July off would not be uniquely your sister's. I'm sure you got PM's about getting Med certs for the period she wants off or threaten to leave, but it's fair to assume your sister wants to keep her job.

Op, unfortunately, not everyone can take holidays when they want to, and not for two months. So stheno doesn't need to be an "authority", he/she is just right about this and as often happens on boards, op's keep threads alive, ignoring correct advice, until someone posts what they want to read. The answer you are waiting for is "the employer done wrong, of course your sister can take two months off in holiday high season".

76544567

Thanks for you response Davo10.
As stated before. I am not waiting for a particular answer. Im waiting for ANY other answers that may or may not come. As with everything there is not just one answer. That is the point of querying the hive.

I asked the question for two points of view eventually because people answering seem to be getting hung up on the time she wants her holidays and then turning the thread into an argument about that when its not relevant. So I clarified the question.

My reason for asking wasnt because she wants to keep her job. It was because I didnt want to see her have to leave her job being the responsible older brother.

The reasons you give werent pmd to me at all. The reasons were above board and very good actually, and may or may not be of use to her specific situation, but since they were pms unless the people that posted them want to post them here, i cant. Im sure they will if they want to.

But dont worry. All sorted. But a handy thread to have for anyone else requiring info on the same situation. Or indeed others might still come along and post the different option one would have in this situation.

Triangle

Jesus lads, can't blame the op for hanging round to see if any options open, boards is full of advice that doesn't always stack up or falls short.

It's good to get a number of different views. In my previous place of work, HR would take the time after refusing parental leave to put in place the structures needed to help the employee out.
It's all about compromise after all even if the law doesn't require it.

76544567

Triangle wrote: »

Jesus lads, can't blame the op for hanging round to see if any options open, boards is full of advice that doesn't always stack up or falls short.

It's good to get a number of different views. In my previous place of work, HR would take the time after refusing parental leave to put in place the structures needed to help the employee out.
It's all about compromise after all even if the law doesn't require it.

Thanks for that.
Thats the kind of stuff im after.

Far too many people on boards jumping straight down peoples throats. Im sure we havent seen the last of it even in this thread. I expect more of it to come.
Awful they way you have to filter out the throat jumpers from the people actually giving actual advice and options.
I guess thats boards for you though.

But as I said before I hope the helpful posts even help others who may read this in the future.
This thread is not just for me, its for anyone who might ever have a similar question in the future and look it up. I just hope some people dont pollute it with hostility so much that info cant be read from it.

Ill pop back in a few days and read anything else on it. Hopefully it will be useful info instead of throat jumpers

gordongekko

76544567 wrote: »

Thanks for you response Davo10.
As stated before. I am not waiting for a particular answer. Im waiting for ANY other answers that may or may not come. As with everything there is not just one answer. That is the point of querying the hive.

I asked the question for two points of view eventually because people answering seem to be getting hung up on the time she wants her holidays and then turning the thread into an argument about that when its not relevant. So I clarified the question.

My reason for asking wasnt because she wants to keep her job. It was because I didnt want to see her have to leave her job being the responsible older brother.

The reasons you give werent pmd to me at all. The reasons were above board and very good actually, and may or may not be of use to her specific situation, but since they were pms unless the people that posted them want to post them here, i cant. Im sure they will if they want to.

But dont worry. All sorted. But a handy thread to have for anyone else requiring info on the same situation. Or indeed others might still come along and post the different option one would have in this situation.

Would you mind sharing the reasons with the rest of us. Who knows we might be in the situation sometime in the future

Sunny Dayz

I thought parental leave was introduced to help parents manage childcare in the school holiday periods.

Sunny Dayz

Edit: double post