anyone joining beef genomic scheme now reopening

Bellview

Any folks that declined the last time going to take up scheme in phase 2.

tanko

Are there any changes to the terms and conditions?

DaDerv

When is it open? Is it worth it? Anyone that's already involved have any opinion on it?

Bellview

tanko wrote:

Are there any changes to the terms and conditions?

Assume same rules. Once opened the question can be asked

Bellview

DaDerv wrote:

When is it open? Is it worth it? Anyone that's already involved have any opinion on it?

Next week is date in media. Depends on your system if it's worth it or not.
My opinion is its easy money but I have angus so stars not a big problem. But my comment is on the metrics. The stars are flawed and there is a strong bias against the stock bull so for me I think the stars are as wrong as can be...but I have enough 4 and 5 stars so I meet criteria to collect the cash.
It's a scheme that was well intended but poorly executed..

bogman_bass

DaDerv wrote: »

When is it open? Is it worth it? Anyone that's already involved have any opinion on it?

Money for old rope. Little bit of work involved but not much. I worked it out at €50 per hour. You'd be mad to leave to leave it behind you

Bellview

bogman_bass wrote:

Money for old rope. Little bit of work involved but not much. I worked it out at €50 per hour. You'd be mad to leave to leave it behind you

Agreed handy cash..once cows in 4 5 stars rating..if herd 2 3 stars it could be harder

DaDerv

Rang my Teagasc Advisor after. Short window to enter he said. 3 weeks I think and no word yet on how to get into it. I'm sure we will find out as soon as it officially opens.

Same clauses apply as before and the reference year is 2014. That can be appealed but I was given no guarantees that it would be changed. We had 14 cows then but I'm up to 30 now so hopefully they'll do something there. Stars shouldn't be a major problem for me either. I suppose any money we can get is hard to refuse!

patsy_mccabe

The only down side was having to take a day off work, to attend the training course. You also have to put button tags on mature cows (genomic testing) which was a pain at first, but then I copped on to using a rope halter to tie cows head to one side. Painless after that.
One unforeseen benefit was having the cow and sire breeding confirmed. This is a great benefit to pedigree breeders, as they can then stand 100% over their sold animals.
I bought 5 heifers and one cow last autumn. Most were 5 stars for replacement and all calved down with serious milk. A lot more then those I bred myself.
Any suckler farmer would be mad not to join up. All the data can be filled online with a mug of coffee in the other hand.

k mac

Can anyone thinking about getting into sucklers join or when you say 2014 was the reference year does that mean you needed to have cows in that year

tanko

k mac wrote: »

Can anyone thinking about getting into sucklers join or when you say 2014 was the reference year does that mean you needed to have cows in that year

Looks like you needed to have cows in 2014.

mauser77

tanko wrote: »

Looks like you needed to have cows in 2014.

Would that not rule everybody out who didn't get there herd number until after 2014

tanko

It would if 2014 is used as the reference year.
I'm not certain, i assume all the details are on the department website.

Never wrestle with pigs

How much is it working out per cow when the deductions are added?

tanko

About €70

tractorporn

bogman_bass wrote:

Money for old rope. Little bit of work involved but not much. I worked it out at €50 per hour. You'd be mad to leave to leave it behind you

Have to agree it's a bit more paperwork but after that all you have to do is tag some older cows with the button tags.

What I would say is join and get out your statement telling you what the stars of all your females are. Then if it seems like a lot of hassle/work you can still pull pin at that stage.

We got the statement here and we all we had to do was change the bull and he was due for a change anyway so it's handy money imo.

kollegeknight

If i were to do it again, I would probably pay €60 and join herdplus for the year and audit what is there already.

For me the scheme has been a balls.

Our stock bull was 4 star and all heifers were 5, just after A.i.ing them, he plummeted to 2 star. And all of them are 3 star.

Now they are climbing again but slowly.

I sold the bull- he made €1370 and had to buy a genotyped bull for €2300.

I haven't seen one penny of the money yet.

rangler1

kollegeknight wrote: »

If i were to do it again, I would probably pay €60 and join herdplus for the year and audit what is there already.

For me the scheme has been a balls.

Our stock bull was 4 star and all heifers were 5, just after A.i.ing them, he plummeted to 2 star. And all of them are 3 star.

Now they are climbing again but slowly.

I sold the bull- he made €1370 and had to buy a genotyped bull for €2300.

I haven't seen one penny of the money yet.

If the star ratings were right you'd have €70/cow without any scheme but you can't even be sure that €2300 bull is right either

Bullocks

rangler1 wrote: »

If the star ratings were right you'd have €70/cow without any scheme but you can't even be sure that €2300 bull is right either

I bought a bull with low stars (I'm not in the scheme ) but he is gone up to 4 star now and one of my buddies bulls has dropped to 2 star . He is going to sell him even though he is giving great charlaois calves that are all calving on their own and up and sucking in jig time .
I'm hoping he will be selling before I need one and it will fall into my barrow.

kollegeknight

If the star ratings were right you'd have €70/cow without any scheme but you can't even be sure that €2300 bull is right either[/quote]

Well any limo bull stars in our area is commanding 2100 upwards. Like anything, you always take a chance on a bull

Bellview

kollegeknight wrote:

Well any limo bull stars in our area is commanding 2100 upwards. Like anything, you always take a chance on a bull

Scheme is anti bull..cynical side of me would see some ai companies finger prints all over the scheme when drafted by icbf

wiggy123

is same rules.. had gd intentions as a scheme.. but mayb the way its done-is wrong.. might even oneself out in time

Figerty

wiggy123 wrote: »

is same rules.. had gd intentions as a scheme.. but mayb the way its done-is wrong.. might even oneself out in time

Uncle has a cow had twin heifers, Identical. One is 4 star, one is 5 star..

rangler1

Figerty wrote: »

Uncle has a cow had twin heifers, Identical. One is 4 star, one is 5 star..

Their DNA can be different, they probably have been DNA tested for genomics

Bellview

rangler1 wrote:

Their DNA can be different, they probably have been DNA tested for genomics

I would love icbf to explain how they baseline the genomics as I have asked with no straight answer. How do they know the 5 star baseline is correct etc. Will be interesting if in 2 or 3cyears time icbf have a similar issue with the stars as they had in dairy this year...where the computer messed everything up..at least no one gets fired..

rangler1

Bellview wrote: »

I would love icbf to explain how they baseline the genomics as I have asked with no straight answer. How do they know the 5 star baseline is correct etc. Will be interesting if in 2 or 3cyears time icbf have a similar issue with the stars as they had in dairy this year...where the computer messed everything up..at least no one gets fired..

The baseline for 5star isn't static, 5 star is the top 20% of the breed, as the breed performance improves so will the baseline for 5 star. If there's 20% of the animals better than the animal being assessed, well then she's a 4 star..... at least that's the way I read it.
As for how they're computing all the results.....i think that's for the birds... in both sheep and cattle

patsy_mccabe

Here's how they calculate the Replacement Value.



From;
https://www.icbf.com/wp/?p=3811

charolais0153

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Here's how they calculate the Replacement Value.



From;
https://www.icbf.com/wp/?p=3811

How do they quantify feed intake

Figerty

rangler1 wrote: »

Their DNA can be different, they probably have been DNA tested for genomics

No, they are the same. He got a very poor answer when it was questioned...the system...

oneten

charolais0153 wrote: »

How do they quantify feed intake

Cull cow weight , I think, not right sure but related to weights somehow

Hurling Hereford

Figerty wrote: »

Uncle has a cow had twin heifers, Identical. One is 4 star, one is 5 star..

Sure that's genotyping and D.N.A., is it not?

Hurling Hereford

Bellview wrote: »

Next week is date in media. Depends on your system if it's worth it or not.
My opinion is its easy money but I have angus so stars not a big problem. But my comment is on the metrics. The stars are flawed and there is a strong bias against the stock bull so for me I think the stars are as wrong as can be...but I have enough 4 and 5 stars so I meet criteria to collect the cash.
It's a scheme that was well intended but poorly executed..

'

Why was it 'poorly executed' in your opinion?

Hurling Hereford

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

The only down side was having to take a day off work, to attend the training course. You also have to put button tags on mature cows (genomic testing) which was a pain at first, but then I copped on to using a rope halter to tie cows head to one side. Painless after that.
One unforeseen benefit was having the cow and sire breeding confirmed. This is a great benefit to pedigree breeders, as they can then stand 100% over their sold animals.
I bought 5 heifers and one cow last autumn. Most were 5 stars for replacement and all calved down with serious milk. A lot more then those I bred myself.
Any suckler farmer would be mad not to join up. All the data can be filled online with a mug of coffee in the other hand.

Attended same course as you, twas the easiest money I made last year & learned a lot from it.

Pidae.m

I actually left the scheme last year had all the tagging done but hadn't got any money. On reflection I don't want to be locked into a system for 6 yrs.

Who2

It's money for old rope, if nothing else it gets lads looking at their breeding and animal performance a bit closer.

Hurling Hereford

kollegeknight wrote: »

If i were to do it again, I would probably pay €60 and join herdplus for the year and audit what is there already.

For me the scheme has been a balls.

Our stock bull was 4 star and all heifers were 5, just after A.i.ing them, he plummeted to 2 star. And all of them are 3 star.

Now they are climbing again but slowly.

I sold the bull- he made €1370 and had to buy a genotyped bull for €2300.

I haven't seen one penny of the money yet.

Hw come ya haven't seen one penny of the money yet? Surely nt another problem like Glas surely

Hurling Hereford

Bellview wrote: »

Scheme is anti bull..cynical side of me would see some ai companies finger prints all over the scheme when drafted by icbf

Strange sort of an auld comment, thought ICBF n the AI lads had 'fallen out' over ebi?

lab man

I'm in the current scheme can I rejoin now as wat could be done in the old reps

kollegeknight

[quote=Hurling

Hw come ya haven't seen one penny of the money yet? Surely nt another problem like Glas surely[/quote]

My father died and it was him who joined the scheme. The dept tell me the system cannot figure out how to pay people in the case where a herd no was transferred. And it has taken them 2.5years to figure it

Bellview

Hurling Hereford wrote:

Strange sort of an auld comment, thought ICBF n the AI lads had 'fallen out' over ebi?

My comment is more on how bulls rated. I will comment on angus where there are a number of bulls that breed rubbish..and they are 5 stars..

Bellview

Hurling Hereford wrote:

Why was it 'poorly executed' in your opinion?

Scrub bulls can be used. Lack of transparency on how stars calculated. Lack of engagement with farming bodies and pedigree societies when being drafted. .I'm in and will draw the cash but trust me my 5 stars cows are average..and their daughters are leaving the yard as they turn up.

Hurling Hereford

Anybody sign on the dotted line for Beef Data 2 today?

Bellview

Hurling Hereford wrote:

Strange sort of an auld comment, thought ICBF n the AI lads had 'fallen out' over ebi?

One ai hasn't fallen out and that might say a lot...but maybe I'm being too cynical again

Sami23

Is 2014 definitely the reference year for cow numbers for the new scheme ?
Also, say you are using AI but a neighbours bull broke in and bulled one of your cows will there be a penalty when this calf is genotyped as the AI you used turns out not to be the father ?

tanko

Sami23 wrote: »

Is 2014 definitely the reference year for cow numbers for the new scheme ?
Also, say you are using AI but a neighbours bull broke in and bulled one of your cows will there be a penalty when this calf is genotyped as the AI you used turns out not to be the father ?

I think it might be possible to use a different reference year in certain circumstances.
Stuff like the neighbours bull coming in can happen, there wouldn't be a penalty as long as you meet the main terms and conditions of the scheme. If you're using Ai at least 80% of the Bulls you use have to be 4/5 star within or across breeds on the terminal or maternal index.
Scrub Bulls even qualify as long as they're 4/5 star.

bogman_bass

Bellview wrote: »

One ai hasn't fallen out and that might say a lot...but maybe I'm being too cynical again

You being cynical about ICBF? Never!

Hurling Hereford

Did anyone hear if there has been much of a 'take up' for BDGP II folks?

The farming media haven't hardly been reporting on it at all. One would think that there would be a good interest in it from new entrants

tellmeabit

hey all,
so probably going to sign up, but not certain on a few items,
re the reference year, so stariting off this year and may look to buy a few incalf cows to bring the numbers up. will I have to keep/produce the same amount of cows/calves each year for the 6 years? or can I have high number this year and drop down if I need to next year?
will hope to use AI so not worried re the stock bull stars.
am a little worried re females: is it saying that by 2020 I would need to only have 20% of cows at 4/5 star and by 2022 50% of cows 4/5 star? that seems achievable, especially with using AI.
so if I had 10 cows with calves this year. by 2020 only 2 would have to be 4/5 star and 5 by 2022.
anyone know how much the carbon navigator with advisor costs?

thanks

Hurling Hereford

Read d BDGP II T & Cs the brother got from dept. Not as much emphasis on bvd in d new BDGP II, in fact fack all really. Some mention of it on d helpsheet which is odd to say d least. The small piece on helpsheet, differs from T & Cs in BDGP I

Hurling Hereford

tellmeabit wrote: »

hey all,
so probably going to sign up, but not certain on a few items,
re the reference year, so stariting off this year and may look to buy a few incalf cows to bring the numbers up. will I have to keep/produce the same amount of cows/calves each year for the 6 years? or can I have high number this year and drop down if I need to next year?
will hope to use AI so not worried re the stock bull stars.
am a little worried re females: is it saying that by 2020 I would need to only have 20% of cows at 4/5 star and by 2022 50% of cows 4/5 star? that seems achievable, especially with using AI.
so if I had 10 cows with calves this year. by 2020 only 2 would have to be 4/5 star and 5 by 2022.
anyone know how much the carbon navigator with advisor costs?

thanks

Ya will be given a reference size under d program. Ya then have to genotype 60% of your stock of d reference size each year.

wiggy123

from what I know.. its the number of cows you had in 2014...