New Electricity Connection being prevented

FiOT

Hi there,

Not sure if this is the appropriate place for this post and please moderators delete it if now. But I wonder if anyone can give me some information on where we stand in the below situation, or if anyone has had similar dealings in the past.

We have paid for an electricity connection for a new build, the pole has been put up on our land and the wires brought to the meter box. However, the farmer who owns the lands around us is refusing to let the electricity connection workmen to access the pole in his land which we are supposed to connect to for power.

The reason he is doing this is because he is trying to force us to put up a "stock proof" fence around our house which we are not contractually obligated to do. Teagasc and my solicitor have confirmed that we are in no way legally obliged to do this. We have put up a boundary fence but this is not enough for him. So he is using our electricity connection to try to bully us into putting up this very expensive fence.

I just wonder if anyone can shed any light on where we stand, now €2600 poorer but with no electricity, or where we should go from here. All correspondence from electricity connectors has been phone calls kind of trying to mollycoddle me into just putting up the fence and making everyone else's life easier.

Calahonda52

This is an issue for the people who contracted to deliver you the supply unless there are some T&C's buried in the contract which cater for this.
Have you talked to your solicitor about suing for specific performance of the contract?
Its in the paperwork.
What would the fence cost?
Have you considered an electric fence along the existing fence, battery operated for now obviously.
Will cable from pole be buried or above ground.
ESB have pretty much unfettered access to land that have their poles unless farmer is wielding a shotgun.

fepper

From the farmers point of view if his animals broke into your garden and made a right mess of it,he could be liable for damage,maybe 50% each to fence it properly,peace of mind on both sides of the fence could be worth it in the long term...

FiOT

Calahonda52 wrote: »

This is an issue for the people who contracted to deliver you the supply unless there are some T&C's buried in the contract which cater for this.
Have you talked to your solicitor about suing for specific performance of the contract?
Its in the paperwork.
What would the fence cost?
Have you considered an electric fence along the existing fence, battery operated for now obviously.
Will cable from pole be buried or above ground.
ESB have pretty much unfettered access to land that have their poles unless farmer is wielding a shotgun.

That's kind of what I've said to the connectors, it's not really my problem that they cannot get onto the land, as far as I know I've done all of the bits I have to do including pay the hefty connection fee.
I am waiting for one more call from the connectors and then I will be in touch with my solicitor again.

With regards the fence, it's not so much about what it costs (even though at 2nd fix stage we don't have the cash for it) as about how is forcing us to put up one of his choosing. My fear is if we cave now, what if he's annoyed in a few years and there was a problem and he won't allow the lads in to fix it. That's a big concern for me.

I think the wire will be above ground, the pole we're connecting to is less than 2m away. The connectors keep calling me asking me basically have we given in yet, no written correspondence, methinks they are trying to avoid a paper trail on this one.

FiOT

fepper wrote: »

From the farmers point of view if his animals broke into your garden and made a right mess of it,he could be liable for damage,maybe 50% each to fence it properly,peace of mind on both sides of the fence could be worth it in the long term...

I understand what you are saying and this probably makes me sound quite petty as I'm refusing to put up the fence now, but we have every intention of fencing off our site properly when we are able.

We have a dog and hopefully children in the future but our fence will be to keep them in, not his animals out. And so for now, my issue is getting the electricity that we paid for.

I think you are getting off on a bad foot with your new neighbour and are being a bit penny wise and pound foolish.

A stock proof fence will cost more but it will protect you from a half ton of beef scratching itself against it and ending up in your garden tearing up your new lawn.

Edit: Did you buy the site from this man? I would have expected him to have required that in any sale contract.

Edit 2: I will be starting building this year and a stock proof fence is one of my first priorities - I don't want to have an open site for animals to potentially wander through out onto the road.

Calahonda52

fepper wrote: »

From the farmers point of view if his animals broke into your garden and made a right mess of it,he could be liable for damage,maybe 50% each to fence it properly,peace of mind on both sides of the fence could be worth it in the long term...

Peace of mind with a farmer...never possible.
The onus is on him to manage his stock, yes he would be liable and rightly so.

[Rant]The attitude displayed in typical of them, hand out for everything, pay no taxes, grants for everything, pay for nothing and up to everyone else to protect their assets from his marauding stock.

I am a country boy so I have first hand experience of all of this stuff.[/Rant]:D

Deleted User wrote: »

I think you are getting off on a bad foot with your new neighbour and are being a bit penny wise and pound foolish.

A stock proof fence will cost more but it will protect you from a half ton of beef scratching itself against it and ending up in your garden tearing up your new lawn.

Repeat rant.

Op: get the solicitor to send a letter requiring specific performance and create a paper trail.

tvisdead

Is he suggesting a contractor come in and install the fence? Our stock proof fencing is 4 strands of barbed fire surrounding our site?
No cattle have broken in yet.... touch wood.
What is his definition of stock proof?

Metric Tensor

Technically it's the ESB's (or whatever they are called now) problem.

Practically it's your problem.

I'd say that if you follow it legally all the way you will force the ESB to make it work by some means but this will take a long time and will most likely buy you an enemy as a nearest neighbour in the process. You would be 100% "in the right" for whatever good that will do you.

I'd suggest that you think hard about finding a solution that allows both parties to save face. This will cost you money and you'll feel hard done by but you will be in the house sooner and you might end up with some sort of civil relationship with your neighbour.

It's not nice and I feel for you but in all of life you have to pick your battles. Weigh up a pyhrric victory against a pragmatic "loss".

FiOT

Thanks everyone for your replies.

This debacle is going on much longer than just this incident and it is not just me but 2 more sites as well that are getting the same carry on. I've spoken with people on the road who bought sites off him over 10 years ago and went through the same with him then too.

So I think in fairness to us, we are not the ones causing the arguments here. We called to his house before we ever started with wine to introduce ourselves and my boyfriend did a number of small repair jobs in his home in the early days. It's just his way or the highway but we just realised that too late!

I hear what you are all saying about compromise and that is what I strive for in everything but I really just don't think that is possible with this guy and so I feel pushed towards the route of more resistance. He won't open his door to us or answer the phone, if we try to contact him he sends us a solicitors letter so we are really out of options but to get a bit mean too.

In writing this all sounds very defensive I know and I'm cringing at myself! Thanks everyone for the varied replies, good to know other opinions on where we stand.

How did the others resolve it?

FiOT

Deleted User wrote: »

How did the others resolve it?

One put up a, by my eye, very decent fence and was told it wasn't good enough and he still wouldn't allow the connection, they are now in the same position as us again although much angrier having spent a good deal more than us.

The other has a young family and needed to move in asap, they put up the fence he wanted.

My question was not about how to resolve this issue but rather is what he is doing actually allowed in the first place.

jmBuildExt

The damage is done re neighbourly relationship. Don't give in!

Luckysasha

The ESB can be only "forcibly" enter land in an emergency situation i.e.; storm damage , broken poles , wires down etc. If permission is refused for access on a routine basis i.e.: Line patrols, new connections, maintenance etc the ESB can apply for a way leave through the legal route. The esb are reluctant to do this unless it's imperative they access the land. In your case it's a routine new connection and they won't really get involved as they can't be seen to play favourites. They don't want to fall out with the farmer either as he may have strategic switching points on his land that have to be accessed more often
The stock proof fencing the farmer is talking about is chainlink fence 3 ft high and then 2 strands of barbed wire. It pricey enough to get done

Metric Tensor

I worked on a large public project where a farmer refused to allow two ESB poles on his land. It ended up costing many thousands extra to put it somewhere else and everyone just sucked it up because of the hassle and tremendous time delays the would have been caused by trying to go about it in any legal way.

Gumbo

FiOT wrote: »

I understand what you are saying and this probably makes me sound quite petty as I'm refusing to put up the fence now, but we have every intention of fencing off our site properly when we are able.

We have a dog and hopefully children in the future but our fence will be to keep them in, not his animals out. And so for now, my issue is getting the electricity that we paid for.

I'd tend to side with the farmer here tbh

ForestFire

kceire wrote: »

I'd tend to side with the farmer here tbh

So the farmer has willing sold plots of his land for 10 years for what I can only assume is decent profit.

In doing this he has knowingly divided and/or changed his own land boundary and now when it comes to ESB access, tries to, what I can only see as, blackmail the new owners for extra money to get essential services connected.


I tend not to side with the Farmer

the_pen_turner

How is next-door fed. Why do you need an extra pole

Gumbo

ForestFire wrote: »

So the farmer has willing sold plots of his land for 10 years for what I can only assume is decent profit.

In doing this he has knowingly divided and/or changed his own land boundary and now when it comes to ESB access, tries to, what I can only see as, blackmail the new owners for extra money to get essential services connected.


I tend not to side with the Farmer

I think the erection of a fence that protects both parties is a minor matter and the OP should have it done as part of his works. That's why I agree with the farmer.

What did the planning application state with regards to boundary treatment OP?
Did the site plan call up the fence, did the elevations show the fence?
Was the fence agreed or discussed before with the farmer when buying the plot?

liam7831

First thing I would do with a site is fence it off correctly

antoinolachtnai

Whatever happens here you need legal advice. You need to go back, ideally, to the solicitor who was involved with your purchase of the site and find out your rights.

if you do not agree to your neighbour's demands you are unavoidably going to end up going to the High Court to get your electricity supply sorted out.

You need to understand the legal implications and make your decisions from there.

ForestFire

kceire wrote: »

I think the erection of a fence that protects both parties is a minor matter and the OP should have it done as part of his works. That's why I agree with the farmer.

What did the planning application state with regards to boundary treatment OP?
Did the site plan call up the fence, did the elevations show the fence?
Was the fence agreed or discussed before with the farmer when buying the plot?

I don't think the op has any issue putting a fence around his house, in fact he already has one.

The issue is the farmer is insisting they put an electric fence for the sole purpose of keeping his livestock under control.

It is not the op responsibility to protect the farmers livestock.

If the op did agree to do this electric fence and the livestock escape through it, who is now responsible? Who is responsible to maintain the electric fence. The farmer could again turn around and claim the op did not erect fence to correct standard and sue for any damage caused.

FiOT

ForestFire wrote: »

I don't think the op has any issue putting a fence around his house, in fact he already has one.

The issue is the farmer is insisting they put an electric fence for the sole purpose of keeping his livestock under control.

It is not the op responsibility to protect the farmers livestock.

If the op did agree to do this electric fence and the livestock escape through it, who is now responsible? Who is responsible to maintain the electric fence. The farmer could again turn around and claim the op did not erect fence to correct standard and sue for any damage caused.

Thanks everyone again.

ForestFire, this is a huge concern for us. We feel that this won't end with this fence.

I am not worried about who wins or who loses in this, that is not the type of person that I am. But I am concerned about protecting us and our home into the future and don't want to set a precedence of bowing down to all commands of this guy.

From what I gather from the comments, it is not necessarily legal in what he is doing and cannot prevent the ESB from connecting us (I know there are many shades of grey in between this black and white statement). I do not want to end up in the high court but it is good to know where we stand in this.

I guess we're not doing too badly when this has been the most stressful part of self - building so far!

antoinolachtnai

You are in an extremely serious situation, because as you say, this may not end with the fence. From your perspective, the landowner who sold you the land is trying to go back on the deal he made and add extra conditions and extra costs to the site.

Personally I think it is outrageous if the facts are as you described.

From the facts as described, there is very little legal ambiguity about whether you should be able to get your electricity supply. You are entitled to get this electricity supply. He has no right to stop this. If ESB don't want to get the wayleave to go by their existing route through his property, it is up to ESB to find an alternative route.

But no one will move to fix this unless you somehow make an agreement or bring pressure to bear. The problem is that it is turning out very difficult to come to agreements with your neighbour-landowner.

sundodger5

Had something similar when we built. From the existing line it required one pole to get it to our land. We went underground from the site boundry.
Had the farmer ring me having a proper go at me...esb trespassing pole on his land etc...
End result was the esb told him they had the right to go anywhere basically. The only compromise was they moved the pole to my side of the boundary....a move of 4 feet.
What shut the farmer up? When he rang giving me more aggro and i told him i was recording the conversation...

FiOT

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

You are in an extremely serious situation, because as you say, this may not end with the fence. From your perspective, the landowner who sold you the land is trying to go back on the deal he made and add extra conditions and extra costs to the site.

Personally I think it is outrageous if the facts are as you described.

From the facts as described, there is very little legal ambiguity about whether you should be able to get your electricity supply. You are entitled to get this electricity supply. He has no right to stop this. If ESB don't want to get the wayleave to go by their existing route through his property, it is up to ESB to find an alternative route.

But no one will move to fix this unless you somehow make an agreement or bring pressure to bear. The problem is that it is turning out very difficult to come to agreements with your neighbour-landowner.

I honestly wish I was making it up.

The ESB in fairness have been very nice to speak to but there is always the undercurrent message of "would you not just put up the fence and be done with it". Lots of engineers and supervisors being spoken to but no solutions yet. Every phone call starts with "well, has there been any developments?" i.e. have you given in yet?

I think I need to ask for something in writing, probably the next best port of call either way.

FiOT

sundodger5 wrote: »

Had something similar when we built. From the existing line it required one pole to get it to our land. We went underground from the site boundry.
Had the farmer ring me having a proper go at me...esb trespassing pole on his land etc...
End result was the esb told him they had the right to go anywhere basically. The only compromise was they moved the pole to my side of the boundary....a move of 4 feet.
What shut the farmer up? When he rang giving me more aggro and i told him i was recording the conversation...

Good for you!

The ESB rang this guy ahead of time, gave him lots of thinking time to plot!

sundodger5

A quick google.....
http://www.bporco.ie/live/524.html
Its up to the esb to sort out. Looks like you need to be a bigger pain in the ass than the farmer to sort this.

ForestFire

FiOT wrote: »

I honestly wish I was making it up.

The ESB in fairness have been very nice to speak to but there is always the undercurrent message of "would you not just put up the fence and be done with it". Lots of engineers and supervisors being spoken to but no solutions yet. Every phone call starts with "well, has there been any developments?" i.e. have you given in yet?

I think I need to ask for something in writing, probably the next best port of call either way.

I can only imagine if the ESB get a hint that you will give in, they will not progress this on their side because of cost and hassle to them.

I think you need to make it clear to ESB than you are not making any agreement with a 3rd party land owner and you expect them to connect you line asap.

ht9zni1gs28crp

Its up to the ESB to sort the farmer out not you. You are entering into a contract with the ESB not the farmer. Next phone call start with asking the ESB have they sorted their leave of way access to the pole yet as you are still waiting on connection.

Like has already been mentioned ESB are looking for the easiest life possible and will continue to do so. Speaking from experience.

Angry bird

A difficult one and there's no repairing the relationship. The question you have to ask yourself is whether it costs you more with the delay v's the cost of this fence. To my mind the farmer is being unreasonable but if I were him I would insist on a specified stock proof fence but be very clear about this from day one and that it forms part of the original deal. No doubt it sticks in the craw but I would put up the stock proof fence, and not an electric one but one that a poster previously specified re barbed wire on top.

Poor Uncle Tom

ForestFire wrote: »

So the farmer has willing sold plots of his land for 10 years for what I can only assume is decent profit.

In doing this he has knowingly divided and/or changed his own land boundary and now when it comes to ESB access, tries to, what I can only see as, blackmail the new owners for extra money to get essential services connected.


I tend not to side with the Farmer

Normally when a contract for sale is being prepared for a site it incorporates what the boundaries are to be and generally who is responsible for providing them. If this farmer has sold sites previously and had similar issues with other site owners it beggers belief that it could happen again.

Also as part of a planning application a site layout plan will indicate the site boundary and detail its make up, sometimes the local authority will condition about the boundaries. All in all no building site should be allowed to get to a stage where it is time to connect power and not have the site boundaries sorted.

FiOT

Hi all,

Once again thank you so much for all of the advice and opinions.

Waiting for a call from the ESB today again and feeling a lot calmer and ready for the conversation now, hopefully we can get it all sorted soon.

Effects

kceire wrote: »

I'd tend to side with the farmer here tbh

As mentioned before, it's up to the farmer to keep his animals on his land. Why should someone else pay for this? If the farmer is doing his job properly then the animals won't stray into someone else's land. He's just trying to save money on his own fencing obligations.

gctest50

Effects wrote: »

As mentioned before, it's up to the farmer to keep his animals on his land. Why should someone else pay for this? If the farmer is doing his job properly then the animals won't stray into someone else's land. He's just trying to save money on his own fencing obligations.

He's being cuter than that - if you build the fence and the animals walk through it - it may be your problem possibly

You'd need to ask a lawyer

Gumbo

Effects wrote: »

As mentioned before, it's up to the farmer to keep his animals on his land. Why should someone else pay for this? If the farmer is doing his job properly then the animals won't stray into someone else's land. He's just trying to save money on his own fencing obligations.

I know that's normally the case with farmers but in this case he is selling parcels of land and if I was selling the land I'd be stipulating a clause that means the house builder has to put in this fence. It's smart business.

If the farmers cattle get through the fence then it's still the farmer that's liable.