House up for sale with no notice to tenants

zoeybelle

Hi everyone,

Looking for some advice on the above, please.

About 6-8 weeks ago, my landlord sent me a text saying that an estate agent would be in touch with me in order to arrange access as he needs to get a valuation on the house for the bank.

I said that wouldn't be a problem and the agent arrived as agreed last week, did his thing and left without saying too much apart from general small talk (he was in and out in 25 minutes).

That was it, never heard a thing after that.

Fast forward to this afternoon and I get a phone call from a lady in the estate agents saying that they would need access for viewings and would next Wednesday evening suit us.

I said "eh, what do you mean viewings?" and she replied that the house is up for sale.

I replied that it was news to me and that none of us had been given no notice or warning of this, not even an inkling that this was happening.

She put me on hold while for a couple of minutes (presumably while she spoke to the agent, who was there in the office with her), after which she said that the agent would ring me back.

I asked would it be this evening but she refused to commit to a timeframe (I'm guessing they realised that they've completely f**ked up and need to figure out their next move).

So, my question is: what are my rights here?

I've been there for years, never had a lease or anything like that but would have proof of residency in the form of a standing order. I presume that I have to get some sort of notice?



Any help, please?

Graham

You are legally entitled to notice, that notice has to be in a fairly specific format for it to be considered valid.

The notice period is based on the length of your tenancy. The longer you have been there, the more notice you are entitled to.

How many full years have you been in the property?

Added:

notice periods based on length of tenancy:

1 year or longer but less than 2 years - 6 weeks (42 days)
2 years or longer but less than 3 years - 8 weeks (56 days)
3 years or longer but less than 4 years - 12 weeks (84 days)
4 years or longer but less than 5 years - 16 weeks (112 days)
5 years or longer but less than 6 years - 20 weeks (140 days)
6 years or longer but less than 7 years - 24 weeks (168 days)
7 years or longer but less than 8 years - 28 weeks (196 days)
8 years or longer - 32 weeks (224 days)

ED E

Might as well post the table here:

Length of tenancy	Notice that the landlord must give
Less than 6 months	4 weeks (28 days)
6 months or longer but less than 1 year	5 weeks (35 days)
1 year or longer but less than 2 years	6 weeks (42 days)
2 years or longer but less than 3 years	8 weeks (56 days)
3 years or longer but less than 4 years	12 weeks (84 days)
4 years or longer but less than 5 years	16 weeks (112 days)
5 years or longer but less than 6 years	20 weeks (140 days)
6 years or longer but less than 7 years	24 weeks (168 days)
7 years or longer but less than 8 years	28 weeks (196 days)
8 years or longer	32 weeks (224 days)

zoeybelle

Thanks for the replies.

"that notice has to be in a fairly specific format for it to be considered valid" - can you confirm what format this is?

Graham

zoeybelle wrote: »

Thanks for the replies.

"that notice has to be in a fairly specific format for it to be considered valid" - can you confirm what format this is?

https://www.rtb.ie/dispute-resolution/dispute-resolution/sample-notices-of-termination

Number 7 on that page.

punisher5112

Have you received notice in letter form or email op?

You don't need to be accommodating or let viewings as it is your home.

Its up to you at this point but you will have to consider looking for somewhere else.

Bad form not being told but same happened myself where a bank appointed agent arrived at our door.

We left in agreed time with a few extra days as we had to find a place which wasn't easy at all.

I've looked at daft and that to see if anything out there and we would have to commute at least 1½hours if we were in that position where we would have to move again.

The_Conductor

Sorry- notice of what?
Notice of the fact that the landlord is selling the house?
He is not obliged to tell you, he is also not under any obligation to serve notice of termination of the tenancy- he can sell the property with a sitting tenant (if he can manage to). This is actually one of the things that Ruth Coppinger has been fighting to force landlords to do........

Are you looking for notice of the termination of tenancy? I'm sorry that its not clear what notice you're looking for?

4ensic15

The_Conductor wrote: »

Sorry- notice of what?
Notice of the fact that the landlord is selling the house?
He is not obliged to tell you, he is also not under any obligation to serve notice of termination of the tenancy- he can sell the property with a sitting tenant (if he can manage to). This is actually one of the things that Ruth Coppinger has been fighting to force landlords to do........

Are you looking for notice of the termination of tenancy? I'm sorry that its not clear what notice you're looking for?

Maybe so, but the LL can show the house to prospective viewers without the o/ps consent.

punisher5112

4ensic15 wrote: »

Maybe so, but the LL can show the house to prospective viewers without the o/ps consent.

Eh no they can not.

The_Conductor

punisher5112 wrote: »

Eh no they can not.

Correct.

The tenant is entitled to peaceful enjoyment of the their tenancy, and they are under no obligation whatsoever to facilitate viewings.

If they are on reasonable terms with the landlord- they could sit down and agree a reduction in rent in lieu of the disturbance they are likely to encounter having to keep the unit clear, vacate it for viewings, and keep their valuables safe. Normal practice would be for the tenant and the landlord to sit down and agree a significant rent discount for the tenant for the duration- in recognition of this. They could also agree other inducements in exchange for their active cooperation in the sale of the property- that would be between them.

I'm not quite sure what has happened here- someone, somewhere, dropped the ball, it would seem.

CaoimheSquee

It wouldn't have been up to the estate agent to make you aware of the sale, I would say they assumed that was all done.
Call your landlord immediately and discuss the fact they need to give you a notice of termination due to selling and that they need to do it properly and by the law.
Call the PTRB for clarity on your rights.

TheChizler

CaoimheSquee wrote: »

Call your landlord immediately and discuss the fact they need to give you a notice of termination due to selling and that they need to do it properly and by the law.

Only if they're planning on ending the tenancy, there's no indication that this is the case though.

CaoimheSquee

TheChizler wrote: »

Only if they're planning on ending the tenancy, there's no indication that this is the case though.

Sales where the tenants aren't affected are really not that common - maybe if part of a commercial/investment sale? But even if there is a clause in the sale that the tenants are to remain there is going to be a new landlord and it shows a complete disregard or even logic (even if somehow lawful) to not have the courtesy to let your tenant know the house will be for sale - how else would viewings etc. happen? Either way a discussion needs to be had with the landlord pronto and the OP needs to know their rights for whatever that outcome may be.

Also a valuation for the bank sounds rather iffy - the landlord may not have a choice in selling and there could be a lot going on in background.

In my own experience, a couple of years back I re-signed a lease for a year in December with landlord at the apartment and got a letter in February saying the apartment was in receivership. Landlord never said anything.

Best of luck OP.

pilly

Whichever the case may be it's bad form on the part of the LL not to keep the tenant informed.

Before going off on a mad one though OP I'd contact the LL directly and talk to them. You may blow your chances of staying in the house after the sale if you go straight down the RTB route.

LiamaDelta

Same thing is happening to me at the moment, I found out that the house I'm in *might* be going up for sale.
I'm just saying nothing...not going to contact them and tell them how much notice they have to give, that's their problem to figure out. Until I get the official notice to vacate I'll not be contacting them.

punisher5112

LiamaDelta wrote: »

Same thing is happening to me at the moment, I found out that the house I'm in *might* be going up for sale.
I'm just saying nothing...not going to contact them and tell them how much notice they have to give, that's their problem to figure out. Until I get the official notice to vacate I'll not be contacting them.

Exactly the way to do it.

pilly

LiamaDelta wrote: »

Same thing is happening to me at the moment, I found out that the house I'm in *might* be going up for sale.
I'm just saying nothing...not going to contact them and tell them how much notice they have to give, that's their problem to figure out. Until I get the official notice to vacate I'll not be contacting them.

It's one way of dealing with it I suppose but I'd hate the uncertainty of that.

LiamaDelta

pilly wrote:

It's one way of dealing with it I suppose but I'd hate the uncertainty of that.

What's certain is that if they're going to sell then they're highly likely to want you out. What's also certain is you're entitled to a fixed amount of notice. May as well delay the start of that notice period for as long as possible as it gives you more time to plan.

Fian

Could possibly be a receivership sale - and the bank rather than the landlord dropped the ball.

though that would be surprising, it is not the first time the bank sold a residential property after all. On the other hand it is also surprising that landlord appears to intend to sell the property with sitting tenants. Mad tbh, he is entitled to terminate your tenancy if he intends to sell.

pilly

LiamaDelta wrote: »

What's certain is that if they're going to sell then they're highly likely to want you out. What's also certain is you're entitled to a fixed amount of notice. May as well delay the start of that notice period for as long as possible as it gives you more time to plan.

No I'm not disagreeing with you, more empathising. I'd hate to be in that situation. I'm coming from the point of view of a LL and a tenant.

As a LL I would be talking to my tenants and making sure they knew exactly the situation and as a tenant I would hope to get the same respect.

4ensic15

The_Conductor wrote: »

Correct.

The tenant is entitled to peaceful enjoyment of the their tenancy, and they are under no obligation whatsoever to facilitate viewings.

If they are on reasonable terms with the landlord- they could sit down and agree a reduction in rent in lieu of the disturbance they are likely to encounter having to keep the unit clear, vacate it for viewings, and keep their valuables safe. Normal practice would be for the tenant and the landlord to sit down and agree a significant rent discount for the tenant for the duration- in recognition of this. They could also agree other inducements in exchange for their active cooperation in the sale of the property- that would be between them.

I'm not quite sure what has happened here- someone, somewhere, dropped the ball, it would seem.

The landlord can show the house from the outside. it is a different matter with regard to going inside.

The_Conductor

4ensic15 wrote: »

The landlord can show the house from the outside. it is a different matter with regard to going inside.

Of course they can- however, what prospective purchaser would be satisfied with looking at it from the outside?

The tenant is in a good position to make a deal with the landlord for very favourable terms for a few months- I think they should do their utmost to be as helpful as possible- and to get as much as a discount as possible from the current landlord. I.e. they help him sell the property- in exchange for a consideration............

4ensic15

The_Conductor wrote: »

Of course they can- however, what prospective purchaser would be satisfied with looking at it from the outside?

...

Houses have been sold at Allsop's with sitting tenants and no access prior to the sale!

Lantus

CaoimheSquee wrote:

It wouldn't have been up to the estate agent to make you aware of the sale, I would say they assumed that was all done. Call your landlord immediately and discuss the fact they need to give you a notice of termination due to selling and that they need to do it properly and by the law. Call the PTRB for clarity on your rights.

I wouldn't be giving the landlord legal advice on the correct way to quickly provide notice of termination. Let him do it and any mistakes are his to make. Why help him? He should know his business.

C3PO

LiamaDelta wrote: »

Same thing is happening to me at the moment, I found out that the house I'm in *might* be going up for sale.
I'm just saying nothing...not going to contact them and tell them how much notice they have to give, that's their problem to figure out. Until I get the official notice to vacate I'll not be contacting them.

Which is exactly the approach that I would take if I was the OP. The law is pretty clear on what the landlords responsibilities are ... let them figure it out! Sit tight and proceed as normal!

CaoimheSquee

Lantus wrote: »

I wouldn't be giving the landlord legal advice on the correct way to quickly provide notice of termination. Let him do it and any mistakes are his to make. Why help him? He should know his business.

Good point to be fair Lantus!

The_Conductor

4ensic15 wrote: »

Houses have been sold at Allsop's with sitting tenants and no access prior to the sale!

Yes- and it happens every day of the week in the UK too (makes for interesting tv). Fact of the matter is someone dropped the ball here- be it the landlord, their bank, the estate agent (whoever- someone dropped the ball.........)

zoeybelle

I can't believe that some people are here are saying that the LL doesn't have to tell me anything or give me any notice of his plans - apart from being against the law, surely there is the basic requirement of common decency or respect? Or has that completely vanished in Ireland today? (I already know the answers I'll get on that.)

Also, what happens to any bills for household essentials that are under contract or stuff like a newly purchased TV Licence? Does that mean we're not only going to be losing our home, but be out of pocket for the privilege of doing so?

What's so annoying about the whole thing is that we had little to no contact with the LL, but always got on fine with him when we had. There was never an issue once! Rent was always on time, we looked after everything ourselves and only asked him for two things in the entire time we've been here (replacing two appliances that just ceased with old age) and kept the property in order. There's also the issue of a reference for our next property. Judging by the way things are at the moment, we need not bother even looking for a place without one.

While the chances of someone letting us stay on after the sale are slim, it would be our ideal scenario. Just in the event that they get a quick sale though, what happens to us if the new owners want us out immediately? What sort of notice period are we looking at then? I would imagine that any prospective buyers will have to factor in the hassle as they'll know we are there from the viewings.

Anyway, I've calmed down in the meantime but haven't heard anything from either the LL or EA since. It will be interesting to see what happens next, but I will be waiting for them to make the next move and have my answers to possible scenarios ready.

Graham

The landlord doesn't have to tell you his plans, although it is probably reasonable that he does.

The landlord does have to give you the statutory notice when he starts to put those plans into motion. It would be usual for you to have completed the notice period and moved out before the sale completes. If it's an owner-occuper with a mortgage, their bank will almost certainly not release funds without vacant possession.

Make sure you know what your statutory notice period is, talk to your landlord after (if) you receive your notice. Ideally you don't want to be held to the end of your tenancy if you find alternative housing elsewhere.

Keep things as pleasant as you can, ask about a reference, confirm return of the deposit etc etc etc/