Premier League trying to fight streaming, can the war be won?

Jayop

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/mar/29/premier-league-illegal-streaming-tv-audiences

So it seems the premier league along with Police forces in different states are trying to increase their fight against illegal streaming. They've raided different premises, confiscating Kodi boxes and other equipment as well getting a high court order to allow the UK’s four biggest ISPs to block access to entire online servers.

Official TV audiences are dropping and the two big questions I would ask from this are...

1) Can this fight be won by them or are these actions against streaming pissing against the wind at this stage?
2) What effect do you see the decreased TV audiences having on the league in terms of the money that Sky, BT and others are prepared to pour into it? Will the deals get smaller next time out and will that in turn have a big effect on the clubs?

Richard Hillman

They are always a couple of steps behind. It took them a couple of years to go at the Android/Kodi boxes but they were already starting to become less popular this season.

I have an IPTV Box (not android) and pay a sub for all of my English and worldwide channels. It will take them a couple of years again to go after this mode but there will be something else after that.

They can't win and the Dinosaurs at the Premier League need to look for a new model. They should sell the TV rights as a world wide package. Sell them to either YouTube/Facebook/Twitter and they can make a killing from the global advertisement revenue. In doing that they can also ensure that the PL is the only show in town.

Fr Tod Umptious

The only way they fight streaming is if the product becomes "non premium".

That happens a few ways.

One way is that the TV companies slash their prices and a lot more people see it as good value. That's not likely to happen anytime soon.

Another is that they move away from the TV all or nothing model.

Instead of paying for Sky sports and getting WTA tennis that you don't want as well as the EPL that you do want, you just pay for the EPL that you do want, whether that be on TV or online.

And within that you can pick what​ you want, follow your team etc.

If people get the impression that they have choice and value then they may be more willing to pay.

Osmosis Jones

They'll never stop it. Only way they'll increase their own viewership is if they improve their own service.

Beasty

They've been trying to clamp down for some time. They did manage to cut down the abuse of Sky where pubs and hotels ended up having to provide essentially watermarked coverage

A few successful prosecutions with one or two being put in jail may keep a lid on it. If it continues to grow though the natural consequence is there will be less money bid by the TV channels. That in itself may not be too bad a thing but does risk more cash flowing to the already bigger clubs as they become even more of the "premium" product on offer.

rwbug

They are fighting back. Sky have shutdown SkySports1 on satellite card sharing and their whole Sky range of channels is expected to be taken off cs soon. With streams the Premier League just got their court order to close down servers illegally streaming, time will tell how successful that is.

If they do succeed in closing streams it will piss off supporters of every club. Our viewing habits have changed and we now want/expect to be able to watch the club we support and not the matches dictated to us by Sky. I think Sky have the opportunity to make more money than before if they start offering packages more suited to fans needs. EG tomorrow - as far as I know the United/West Brom match isn't televised but every United fan will be searching for streams. Sky needs to monetise that demand.

mikeym

rwbug wrote: »

tomorrow - as far as I know the United/West Brom match isn't televised but every United fan will be searching for streams. Sky needs to monetise that demand.

While over in America people have access to all the live Premier League matches on NBCSN or NBC Sports live.

Irish fans are being robbed by Eir/Sky, thousands of Man Utd fans will have no choice but to watch the 3pm match online because Sky wont be showing it.

The days of waiting for Match of the Day to come on are over, people want to see their team live week in week out and in order to stamp out illegal streaming the Premier League should introduce a Netflix style football service for those who only want to see their team.

Ulysses Gaze

I've been saying it for years.

I would happily buy a "season ticket" access to just watch Liverpool games. And a little bit extra on top to access La Liga. Whether that is online or through TV, I would not mind.

I don't care about other teams in the Premier League. And I sure as hell do not want to sit down and watch WBA v Stoke. Ever.

Otherwise, I like the idea of all matches being streamed on Youtube as the advertising revenue would potentially be incredible for the Premier League. And I could also watch the matches I want.

Harry Palmr

As long as the PL and other licensing bodies are lazy and keep selling their product on an exclusive and territorial basis for huge sums people will seek out alternative access.

I'd love an on-line Liverpool games channel which can be viewed as live for say 50 quid a year, with packages for archived, club chat, academy games etc. The tech now makes bespoke packages possible for most who want to watch. Smaller clubs will lose out relatively but even Burnley has a fan base that will pay for such an approach I'm sure. Meanwhile the traditional broadcasters will still be able to show games and the prices they pay would also be much lower. Obviously Sky would hate that.

Kitsunegari

They will never be able to clamp down on it until they offer a package to watch the games online. TV rights aren't going to allow for that. All they can do at this point is keep trying to shut it down but they will never be able to really clamp down on it or even make a dent in the market. Good quality HD streams of nearly all games are available online for free. Also, the quality of the premier league has massively decreased over the past 5 years IMO.

Some people aren't prepared to pay €40+ a month to watch all the premier league games anymore. They need to face up to that fact.

Zebra3

As noted above Sky have caused this problem by lumping football in with tonnes of other crap that a lot of people don't want.

I've no interest in paying for Sky Sports when it includes the cost of egg chasing, bogball, netball and whatever. I just wanna watch football.

Technology tends to jump forward quicker than legislation can deal with.

Cantona's Collars

They've a great service in Germany, pay a sub every month (€9.99 I think) and watch whatever game you want.You need a German credit card etc. to access the service so no fiddling the system.
People wouldn't mind paying a monthly sub just for football. I don't want to watch tennis,cricket etc.
Tomorrow I'll stream the United game,it's gas that countries all around the world can pick and choose what game they want to watch and we are deemed lucky to see one Saturday 3pm because we live in Ireland,in the UK they don't even get that option.
Sky/BT can't do anything about servers in some far flung country hosting streams we access so it's like trying to push water up a hill with a rake for them trying to stop streams.

mikeym

Eir & Bt Sport is €225 a year on satellite.

Sky Sports with the basic Sky Subscription is €54.50 a month.

Watching live sport isnt cheap.

Albert_Camus

mikeym wrote: »

Eir & Bt Sport is €225 a year on satellite.

Sky Sports with the basic Sky Subscription is €54.50 a month.

Watching live sport isnt cheap.

Griezmann and these lads won't be cheap. The fans need to start paying up ☺️

bennyineire

rwbug wrote: »

They are fighting back. Sky have shutdown SkySports1 on satellite card sharing and their whole Sky range of channels is expected to be taken off cs soon. With streams the Premier League just got their court order to close down servers illegally streaming, time will tell how successful that is.

If they do succeed in closing streams it will piss off supporters of every club. Our viewing habits have changed and we now want/expect to be able to watch the club we support and not the matches dictated to us by Sky. I think Sky have the opportunity to make more money than before if they start offering packages more suited to fans needs. EG tomorrow - as far as I know the United/West Brom match isn't televised but every United fan will be searching for streams. Sky needs to monetise that demand.

SkySports1 on satellite card sharing still work
ing for me

super_furry

mikeym wrote: »

Eir & Bt Sport is €225 a year on satellite.

Sky Sports with the basic Sky Subscription is €54.50 a month.

Watching live sport isnt cheap.

And that's the thing they don't seem to realise.

If they suddenly manage to kill these streaming sites overnight, their subscription numbers aren't going to magically double. People are using these services because they're being priced out of subscription football.

rwbug

bennyineire wrote: »

SkySports1 on satellite card sharing still work
ing for me

I don't understand how it all works, something about channels still working on the Irish transponder. For me Sky Sports1, Sky Sports News and Sky Atlantic have been shut down. Check out any of the cs forums, they seem to be predicting this is probably the end for cs. Apparently they have already been able to kill cs on Sky Italy.

Oat23

rwbug wrote: »

I don't fully understand how it all works, something about channels still working on the Irish transponder. For me Sky Sports1, Sky Sports News and Sky Atlantic have been shut down. Check out any of the cs forums, they seem to be predicting this is probably the end for cs. Apparently they have already been able to kill cs on Sky Italy.

They have blocked a certain frequency on the UK cards, but SS1 & SSN are still accessible for now through CS via Irish cards. Eurosport, TCM and a few others are gone for all though.

It's coming to an end but it had a good run.

I'll say 1 word: <snip>

You'll never look back.

Dirty Dingus McGee

mikeym wrote: »

Eir & Bt Sport is €225 a year on satellite.

Sky Sports with the basic Sky Subscription is €54.50 a month.

Watching live sport isnt cheap.

If you watch enough of it it's pretty good value.

Mr.H

To be honest if Sky gave me access (even through other channels) to every game then I wouldnt use streams ever.

I have all the sports channels and it costs a lot but I have Sky (standard view but 4k for the bigger games) and the Eir package (high def)

If they offered access to everything I am sure the price would go up but I wouldnt mind. Its easier and less stressful to watch through satellite than a stream that at times can go down (or back to the feckin start). Not to mention the obvious difference in quality.

When I lived in Australia I had foxtel (Sky) which gave me foxtel sports and on foxtel sports I could watch any gave at that time through the red button.................... all the 3 oclock games (obviously in the middle of the night there) were available through the red button

Francie Barrett

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

I would happily buy a "season ticket" access to just watch Liverpool games.

this plus a million.

Fr Tod Umptious

Mr.H wrote: »

To be honest if Sky gave me access (even through other channels) to every game then I wouldnt use streams ever.

I have all the sports channels and it costs a lot but I have Sky (standard view but 4k for the bigger games) and the Eir package (high def)

If they offered access to everything I am sure the price would go up but I wouldnt mind. Its easier and less stressful to watch through satellite than a stream that at times can go down (or back to the feckin start). Not to mention the obvious difference in quality.

When I lived in Australia I had foxtel (Sky) which gave me foxtel sports and on foxtel sports I could watch any gave at that time through the red button.................... all the 3 oclock games (obviously in the middle of the night there) were available through the red button

The ability to watch any game of your choice in a territory (Australia, USA) that is not the main territory (UK) is not unique to Sky or the EPL.

You can watch any NFL game online here in Ireland via Gamepass, but in the US you have to watch whatever they are showing on TV in your region, mind you the vast majority of NFL games are on free TV in the US.

Ulysses Gaze

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

I've been saying it for years.

I would happily buy a "season ticket" access to just watch Liverpool games. And a little bit extra on top to access La Liga. Whether that is online or through TV, I would not mind.

I don't care about other teams in the Premier League. And I sure as hell do not want to sit down and watch WBA v Stoke. Ever.

Otherwise, I like the idea of all matches being streamed on Youtube as the advertising revenue would potentially be incredible for the Premier League. And I could also watch the matches I want.

Bang on the money about season pass for team specific. Personally only interested in watching Liverpool and Ireland matches these days. If I get to see others great, more often than not family life dictates this is limited.

Hopefully this is something we see in the near future.

Fr Tod Umptious

Before anything like team only packages can be offered the issue of the 3pm blackout and the equal sharing of TV rights will have to be sorted out.

If you can pick whatever team you wish to watch the value of packages for the high profile teams will be great than the value for the small teams, so the big teams should get a bigger cut if the rights money.

And what if your team is playing at 3pm, you're paying for the game you should be able to see it.

So fighting streaming has far more to it than just shutting down websites and hoping the problem goes away.

Fr Tod Umptious

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Before anything like team only packages can be offered the issue of the 3pm blackout and the equal sharing of TV rights will have to be sorted out.

If you can pick whatever team you wish to watch the value of packages for the high profile teams will be great than the value for the small teams, so the big teams should get a bigger cut if the rights money.

And what if your team is playing at 3pm, you're paying for the game you should be able to see it.

So fighting streaming has far more to it than just shutting down websites and hoping the problem goes away.

It's understandable the blackout in the UK as attendances may be affected. For armchair supporters in Ireland it shouldnt be applied and isn't.

Karma25

For all the support of a Liverpool only stream i remember Ian arye getting abuse for saying Liverpool should be allowed to sell their own TV rights. The opposition said it would create a bigger gap in quality between the top 6 which I agree with. 5.3 billion shared among the premier league teams rather than 11 billion is quite a substantial amount. La liga is a prime example with the gap between between Barca,Madrid V others.

In terms of the thread I think sky need to up their game and make all games available and you can pick which game you want.

KaiserGunner

I'm all for a subscription based package online or on satellite etc that includes every premier league game and that each club in the premier league gets an equal share of the tv money.

However a season ticket option for an individual club? No thanks, that would only make the top clubs even richer, Man Utd already are cleaning up commercially without that being added to it. That option would only really benefit Man Utd and Liverpool if it became an option in Ireland and the U.K, so I'd be strongly against that.

Beasty

Beasty wrote: »

They've been trying to clamp down for some time. They did manage to cut down the abuse of Sky where pubs and hotels ended up having to provide essentially watermarked coverage

A few successful prosecutions with one or two being put in jail may keep a lid on it. If it continues to grow though the natural consequence is there will be less money bid by the TV channels. That in itself may not be too bad a thing but does risk more cash flowing to the already bigger clubs as they become even more of the "premium" product on offer.

I've been to a pub where the water mark was engraved on the Display lol, typical local outside of the big smoke :P

Watermark as in the little pint icon you mean?

Beasty

M!Ck^ wrote: »

I've been to a pub where the water mark was engraved on the Display lol, typical local outside of the big smoke :P

Just needs one person to report them and they would risk prosecution

That becomes the issue when Sky and the like have dealt with the bigger issues. They just have to offer small "rewards" for any info leading to a prosecution and everyone currently doing it will start to back off

Beasty

Beasty wrote: »

Just needs one person to report them and they would risk prosecution

That becomes the issue when Sky and the like have dealt with the bigger issues. They just have to offer small "rewards" for any info leading to a prosecution and everyone currently doing it will start to back off

I was chatting to the owner on this a few years ago and the annual price of a subscription for Sports is nothing short of madness. From his perspective pubs too small to ever have the cash to pay for it.

Nobody mentioned in the thread but I assume this also has an effect on card sharing services?

Jayop

rwbug wrote: »

They are fighting back. Sky have shutdown SkySports1 on satellite card sharing and their whole Sky range of channels is expected to be taken off cs soon. With streams the Premier League just got their court order to close down servers illegally streaming, time will tell how successful that is.

If they do succeed in closing streams it will piss off supporters of every club. Our viewing habits have changed and we now want/expect to be able to watch the club we support and not the matches dictated to us by Sky. I think Sky have the opportunity to make more money than before if they start offering packages more suited to fans needs. EG tomorrow - as far as I know the United/West Brom match isn't televised but every United fan will be searching for streams. Sky needs to monetise that demand.

I'm watching Sky sports 1 on a card sharing machine now.

Edit just saw your response to this from someone else.

M!Ck^

M!Ck^ wrote: »

I've been to a pub where the water mark was engraved on the Display lol, typical local outside of the big smoke :P

Watermark as in the little pint icon you mean?

I think you could buy stickers on ebay at one stage.
Sky started changing the colour and moving the icon about I think to make it relatively obvious the pubs weren't paying.

I'm in Salzburg watching SS1 on Mobdro on my phone now. Half expecting rupert to come on screen and say "fnck you Augeo" at KO and the phone to explode

niallo27

Cardsharing is going no where. We here this crap every few months. Too much money involved to stop it plus sky would need to upgrade every sd box in uk and Ireland to block it. This is not going happen for years.

mrsoundie

I have eir broadband, so eir and BT Sport for free. Also, my Sky Sports subscription is €20 a month (it was to get me to return as a loyal customer, they offered it again two days before the start of the season.)

So I am happy.

Rossi IRL

If I want to watch my team and they are not on tv then what other option is there apart from streaming.

I already pay for Sky, BT and MUTV.

Rossi IRL

Rossi IRL wrote: »

If I want to watch my team and they are not on tv then what other option is there apart from streaming.

I already pay for Sky, BT and MUTV.

Physically going always an option!

Gbear

Karma25 wrote: »

For all the support of a Liverpool only stream i remember Ian arye getting abuse for saying Liverpool should be allowed to sell their own TV rights. The opposition said it would create a bigger gap in quality between the top 6 which I agree with. 5.3 billion shared among the premier league teams rather than 11 billion is quite a substantial amount. La liga is a prime example with the gap between between Barca,Madrid V others.

In terms of the thread I think sky need to up their game and make all games available and you can pick which game you want.

There'd be fairly easy ways to sort that (that wouldn't be popular with the clubs themselves, but it'd reduce the probability of stratification).

You could quite easily have a rule in the league that says that some or all of the TV revenue goes into a pot .

Essentially, it'd be similar to what we have now, except customers wouldn't get screwed over.

Even if the club got 60% of the revenue and the other 40% was split evenly through the league, the lower level teams would still have more money than God.

And you could have flexibile packages as well - a company could rebroadcast each clubs streams so you could pay £x a month and for that you get a dozen matches of your choosing, or whatever.
They'd pay the clubs and you'd pay a slight premium for flexibility, where they could make their profit.


Another issue is that I quite often watch streams even if I've the match on Sky or BT downstairs and even if they're streaming it on that channel.
I want flexibility where I watch but the official streaming services are often worse than supposedly dodgy streams.

Also, there's the ban on 3pm kickoffs being broadcast on Saturday.

It's not the government's business whether random non-league teams loss attendance because people don't want to watch **** football.

If they want to do something about it, then the Football League need to spend some of their billions as leg-up to grassroots and the lower leagues.

Mr.H

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

The ability to watch any game of your choice in a territory (Australia, USA) that is not the main territory (UK) is not unique to Sky or the EPL.

You can watch any NFL game online here in Ireland via Gamepass, but in the US you have to watch whatever they are showing on TV in your region, mind you the vast majority of NFL games are on free TV in the US.

I just wish they didnt think of us as part of the UK region so they could offer us a similar service (for EPL)

Cantona's Collars

Mr.H wrote: »

I just wish they didnt think of us as part of the UK region so they could offer us a similar service (for EPL)

Maybe Brexit will sort that.

Cantona's Collars

RoboKlopp wrote: »

Physically going always an option!

Unless you live local to your team that's not exactly viable financially and time wise.

Augeo

Augeo wrote: »

.............

I'm in Salzburg watching SS1 on Mobdro on my phone now. Half expecting rupert to come on screen and say "fnck you Augeo" at KO and the phone to explode

Perfect so far

Oat23

niallo27 wrote: »

Cardsharing is going no where. We here this crap every few months. Too much money involved to stop it plus sky would need to upgrade every sd box in uk and Ireland to block it. This is not going happen for years.

They offered free upgrades to people using Thomson SD boxes recently. It looks like those boxes may have been what was stopping them.

People have been trying to find a way around Sky IT's block for 18 months now and have had no luck. Sky UK just began rolling out the exact same thing (icam). Why would they stop after just a few channels?

niallo27

Oat23 wrote: »

They offered free upgrades to people using Thomson SD boxes recently. It looks like those boxes may have been what was stopping them.

People have been trying to find a way around Sky IT's block for 18 months now and have had no luck. Sky UK just began rolling out the exact same thing (icam). Why would they stop after just a few channels?

They channels are easily cleared though. They are still clearing on SD boxes. They channels will be back on line by tomorrow evening.

Oat23

niallo27 wrote: »

They channels are easily cleared though. They are still clearing on SD boxes. They channels will be back on line by tomorrow evening.

So you're saying these channels will all be back tomorrow? Despite Sky UK implementing the same encryption on them that Sky IT uses and has not been cracked in the past 18 months?

Fox +1
Sky Atlantic
Sky sports 4
Sky Sports 1 (England)
Skysportsnews HQ
Living+1
TCM
Eurosport 1
Eurosport 2

Who is giving you this info? Genuinely interested to find out why you think they'll be back tomorrow?

The only way they could come back is if A) Sky removes the encryption or Someone has found a way round it.

Both unlikely.

niallo27

Oat23 wrote: »

So you're saying these channels will all be back tomorrow? Despite Sky UK implementing the same encryption on them that Sky IT uses and has not been cracked in the past 18 months?



Who is giving you this info? Genuinely interested to find out why you think they'll be back tomorrow?

The only way they could come back is if A) Sky removes the encryption or Someone has found a way round it.

Both unlikely.

Only sky alantic is off. I'm watching sky sports 1 now. They have already fixed it but haven't released it yet. Info off techkings which are always reliable. This is there biggest step in a while so maybe something bigger is coming.

Oat23

niallo27 wrote: »

Only sky alantic is off. I'm watching sky sports 1 now. They have already fixed it but haven't released it yet. Info off techkings which are always reliable. This is there biggest step in a while so maybe something bigger is coming.

Techkings is hardly reliable. They promote cheap boxes and unofficial software.
There is little optimism on multics and streamboard.

Try putting on SS1 from 12148 H 27500. It's gone.
TCM, Sky Atlantic and the others are gone too.
TCM +1 and Sky Atlantic +1 both work as they are a different frequency. They will go when they roll out the icam plus encryption.

Every channel on 12148 H is gone.

niallo27

Oat23 wrote: »

Techkings is hardly reliable. They promote cheap boxes and unofficial software.
There is little optimism on multics and streamboard.

Try putting on SS1 from 12148 H 27500. It's gone.
TCM, Sky Atlantic and the others are gone too.
TCM +1 and Sky Atlantic +1 both work as they are a different frequency. They will go when they roll out the icam plus encryption.

Every channel on 12148 H is gone.

Maybe your right it might be the end but I have heard it so many times it's hard to believe it. These channels are still clearing on the SD box though until that stops I will remain optimistic.

Fr Tod Umptious

Gbear wrote: »

There'd be fairly easy ways to sort that (that wouldn't be popular with the clubs themselves, but it'd reduce the probability of stratification).

You could quite easily have a rule in the league that says that some or all of the TV revenue goes into a pot .

Essentially, it'd be similar to what we have now, except customers wouldn't get screwed over.

Even if the club got 60% of the revenue and the other 40% was split evenly through the league, the lower level teams would still have more money than God.

And you could have flexibile packages as well - a company could rebroadcast each clubs streams so you could pay £x a month and for that you get a dozen matches of your choosing, or whatever.
They'd pay the clubs and you'd pay a slight premium for flexibility, where they could make their profit.


Another issue is that I quite often watch streams even if I've the match on Sky or BT downstairs and even if they're streaming it on that channel.
I want flexibility where I watch but the official streaming services are often worse than supposedly dodgy streams.

Also, there's the ban on 3pm kickoffs being broadcast on Saturday.

It's not the government's business whether random non-league teams loss attendance because people don't want to watch **** football.

If they want to do something about it, then the Football League need to spend some of their billions as leg-up to grassroots and the lower leagues.

People who go to lower league football are fans of the big teams also.

It's just that it's much easier and cheaper to go to a more local lower league game than it is to a big game.

If that big game is on TV at 3pm then a certain % will not go to the lower league game as a result.

We in Ireland do get the 3pm games from Sky, previously from Setanta and RTE before that.

But we are not a big enough market for any TV company to offer a full set of 3pm games such as is available in Asia and the US.

Oat23

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

If that big game is on TV at 3pm then a certain % will not go to the lower league game as a result.

Why can't they just move EPL games to a different time? Fans can then watch/attend both. A later time suits The Americas and Asia more as well.

I assume 'tradition' even though the EPL sold out long ago.

Mr.H

Oat23 wrote: »

Why can't they just move EPL games to a different time? Fans can then watch/attend both. A later time suits The Americas and Asia more as well.

I assume 'tradition' even though the EPL sold out long ago.

At least more Friday night games going forward should take away from the 3pm kick offs.

I'd like to see Saturday night games also

Inquitus

You could quite easily allow club based subs and equitable money sharing, which I would be in favour of. If Cardsharing dies, then there is Aceplayer which can never be blocked, and then the next thing and the next thing, so no they will never win this battle.