M1 Carbine

HappyShooter

Hi All,

I have been gallery shooting for quite some time and I have an interest in getting an M1 Carbine for competitions. I need some information on them please... hopefully somebody can help!

Do many people have them? (Will I be the only one at some competitions competing in the discipline?)
How much is it for ammo and is it hard to get?
Are they reliable?
Which is the best one to buy and what is a fair price for it?
Who sells them... and are they hard to licence?

Thanks in advance...:D

HS

LIFFY FISHING

HappyShooter wrote: »

Hi All,

I have been gallery shooting for quite some time and I have an interest in getting an M1 Carbine for competitions. I need some information on them please... hopefully somebody can help!

Do many people have them? (Will I be the only one at some competitions competing in the discipline?)
How much is it for ammo and is it hard to get?
Are they reliable?
Which is the best one to buy and what is a fair price for it?
Who sells them... and are they hard to licence?

Thanks in advance...:D

HS

Budget €1k / €1500
Restricted Licence
Scarce to Source, (sometimes available through Hilltop)
Unless you know the rifle or owner, unreliable, parts very hard to source.
Ammo reasonable for cf and usually available from RFD's with restricted licences

Wadi14

HS, not to sure how many people have them, but it would be a very small number, not alone would you be at shoots and be the only one there that owns one, most shoots don't have M1 event listed, if you check out the NASRPC web site and look at the results page you will see all shoots listed and what events took place.
In saying that if you buy one , contact the association and see about having more events listed.

BillBen

I know six or seven people who have them. I currently have an application in for one. They are hard to source but as Liffy said hilltop does get them. As for the ammunition it's around €26 a box of 50

tac foley

Where would you get your spare parts from?

tac

HappyShooter

Thanks all for your input...
Am I right to assume the firearm is unreliable unless I can see it myself? This would make purchasing one so much more difficult as they all seem to be coming in from abroad and need to be paid for up front.
Ammo is actually less expensive than I thought it would be.
It seems the bigger shoots tend to have M1 disciplines, not too many shooters participate. All the above is slightly off-putting.

HappyShooter

BillBen wrote: »

I know six or seven people who have them. I currently have an application in for one. They are hard to source but as Liffy said hilltop does get them. As for the ammunition it's around €26 a box of 50

Great to hear you're applying for one! I'm not the only one who has considered getting one

How did you source yours do you mind me asking? Can you drop me a PM?

BillBen

tac foley wrote: »

Where would you get your spare parts from?

tac

I know some of the guys travel to Germany every year and I think they pre order spares and collect them there or brownells will ship certain parts

BattleCorp

Most NASRPC and GRPAI competitions have shoots for M1's. M1's can shoot alongside everybody else in a t&p, multi target, precision etc. so there's plenty of scope to shoot them in competitions.

It's pot luck though as to how many people turn up to shoot M1's. Usually it's the bigger shoots where more lads turn up with them but it's rare enough that only one person would turn up with an M1.

I've shot them in Germany, brilliant craic and a good test of your skill seeing as they are shot with iron sights.

Reliability can be an issue because a lot of these guns were manufactured in a hurry during WWII. You can be lucky and get ones that perform perfectly and you can be unlucky and get ones that needs plenty of work.

I wouldn't worry too much about spares. They can be got. If you are interested in getting a M1 then go for it.

Grizzly 45

Unless you have a Ivor Johnston model the M1 carbine is a very straightforward and reliable design..Testimony is the last ones were made around the early to mid 1950s in select fire for Korea. Try before you buy is the watch word.But by and large unless it has been used as a jack lever or the barrel is shot out,there isn't much that can go wrong with these.
Depending on condition and who made it back in the 1940s[Just about every US gun and machinery company did make them]They can range from 200 euro junkers to blue book pristine from some company like Union Switch company at 2k.So between 4 to 6 hundred euro should put you in the running going by Egun prices.They are common enough in Germany too,as they were issued to German police units after the war ,so parts shouldnt be too hard to source either..
Buying ex military surplus here is a whole different game than buying a new gun from a dealer,
If you are buying from abroad,I'd suggest buying from someone like Frankonia or Treibel in Berlin.The gun will be under warrenty and it will be checked over by their in house gunsmiths before it is put up for sale. Buying from a dealer here sight unseen...Unless you specify hand picked grade 1 or whatever your budget allows,could mean the supplier over wherever just goes to a pile and pulls out any old gun and ships it to your dealer. So find out if the dealer here has personally inspected the stock he bought from the whole saler or is willing to give a warranty on whatever he sells.
As of course our liscense system liscenses the gun not the man,you need to make sure the gun you want is in good to exellent ,as budget allows,condition.As the last thing you want is some old beater that you cant change without a lot of hassle.
And yes,there is a perfect competition for your "lill M1" , apart from the usual ,namely Bullseye 360. Both long and short course.The 30 carbine is almost made for this course.

tac foley

HappyShooter wrote: »

they all seem to be coming in from abroad and need to be paid for up front.....It seems the bigger shoots tend to have M1 disciplines, not too many shooters participate. All the above is slightly off-putting.

Well, yes. They never appeared in service in Ireland, anywhere, and the only one I ever saw was at Laddas Drive, Belfast, having been recovered from a shooting. They were rare here in UK before the '88 ban, as well, although their 'successor', the Ruger Mini14, was quite popular. It was probably the general difficulty of getting ammunition that made them unusual.

Note that M1 can also be referring to the M1 Garand - M1 is just a type designator, not an exact nomenclature. You'll be at a distinct disadvantage in a line of shooters letting fly with .30-06 at 500 yards....

Good luck!

tac

Grizzly 45

Someone in the US ordinance dept back then was a very unimaginative sod or couldn't count past 1...:rolleyes:

M1 carbine 30 cal, M1 Garand 30.06, M1 bayonet [to fit M1 carbine or M1 Garand] and a Thompson M1 SMG..

tac foley

...and M1 Abrams................................................slightly bigger gun, though.

tac

LIFFY FISHING

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Unless you have a Ivor Johnston model the M1 carbine is a very straightforward and reliable design..Testimony is the last ones were made around the early to mid 1950s in select fire for Korea. Try before you buy is the watch word.But by and large unless it has been used as a jack lever or the barrel is shot out,there isn't much that can go wrong with these.
Depending on condition and who made it back in the 1940s[Just about every US gun and machinery company did make them]They can range from 200 euro junkers to blue book pristine from some company like Union Switch company at 2k.So between 4 to 6 hundred euro should put you in the running going by Egun prices.They are common enough in Germany too,as they were issued to German police units after the war ,so parts shouldnt be too hard to source either..
Buying ex military surplus here is a whole different game than buying a new gun from a dealer,
If you are buying from abroad,I'd suggest buying from someone like Frankonia or Treibel in Berlin.The gun will be under warrenty and it will be checked over by their in house gunsmiths before it is put up for sale. Buying from a dealer here sight unseen...Unless you specify hand picked grade 1 or whatever your budget allows,could mean the supplier over wherever just goes to a pile and pulls out any old gun and ships it to your dealer. So find out if the dealer here has personally inspected the stock he bought from the whole saler or is willing to give a warranty on whatever he sells.
As of course our liscense system liscenses the gun not the man,you need to make sure the gun you want is in good to exellent ,as budget allows,condition.As the last thing you want is some old beater that you cant change without a lot of hassle.
And yes,there is a perfect competition for your "lill M1" , apart from the usual ,namely Bullseye 360. Both long and short course.The 30 carbine is almost made for this course.

You can NOT "try before you buy" a Restricted firearm in the Rep Of Ireland, as it is illegal to do so, a restricted firearm can not be handed to a person with out the licence for that firearm to "try out"

clivej

LIFFY FISHING wrote: »

You can NOT "try before you buy" a Restricted firearm in the Rep Of Ireland, as it is illegal to do so, a restricted firearm can not be handed to a person with out the licence for that firearm to "try out"

BUT AFAIK you can test fire a restricted firearm under the directions of an RFD on a range here.

Grizzly 45

LIFFY FISHING wrote: »

You can NOT "try before you buy" a Restricted firearm in the Rep Of Ireland, as it is illegal to do so, a restricted firearm can not be handed to a person with out the licence for that firearm to "try out"

Try before you buy in this context means go and look at the gun or multiples thereof in multiple dealers before you put the cash down.As I doubt many dealers/importers are going to specify what condition or grade they will want of a surplus rifle."An M1 carbine..Grand! Three of dem please." Where it should be" Three M1 carbines in Condition 1 and hand picked.[Very good condition and personally selected by the exporter.
As Clive said for the rest of it for function and fit.

HappyShooter

tac foley wrote: »

You'll be at a distinct disadvantage in a line of shooters letting fly with .30-06 at 500 yards....

tac

I would mainly be using it for gallery shooting but you do have a valid point!

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Unless you have a Ivor Johnston model the M1 carbine is a very straightforward and reliable design..Testimony is the last ones were made around the early to mid 1950s in select fire for Korea. Try before you buy is the watch word.But by and large unless it has been used as a jack lever or the barrel is shot out,there isn't much that can go wrong with these.
Depending on condition and who made it back in the 1940s[Just about every US gun and machinery company did make them]They can range from 200 euro junkers to blue book pristine from some company like Union Switch company at 2k.So between 4 to 6 hundred euro should put you in the running going by Egun prices.They are common enough in Germany too,as they were issued to German police units after the war ,so parts shouldnt be too hard to source either..
Buying ex military surplus here is a whole different game than buying a new gun from a dealer,
If you are buying from abroad,I'd suggest buying from someone like Frankonia or Treibel in Berlin.The gun will be under warrenty and it will be checked over by their in house gunsmiths before it is put up for sale. Buying from a dealer here sight unseen...Unless you specify hand picked grade 1 or whatever your budget allows,could mean the supplier over wherever just goes to a pile and pulls out any old gun and ships it to your dealer. So find out if the dealer here has personally inspected the stock he bought from the whole saler or is willing to give a warranty on whatever he sells.
As of course our liscense system liscenses the gun not the man,you need to make sure the gun you want is in good to exellent ,as budget allows,condition.As the last thing you want is some old beater that you cant change without a lot of hassle.
And yes,there is a perfect competition for your "lill M1" , apart from the usual ,namely Bullseye 360. Both long and short course.The 30 carbine is almost made for this course.

Plenty of useful information here, Thanks, Grizzly. I'm not sure about buying from abroad myself... is it something that can be done? Buying from abroad might be a good option... but then the whole "try before you buy" or "examine before you buy" goes out the window!

HS

Grizzly 45

Yeah ,it's no problem to buy from abroad,once you have the paperwork to own ,export and import..Part of what the EU is supposedly about.Thing is,buying from abroad will proably get you a better deal and something that is in working condition to what you want,and be checked by a gunsmith before it is offered for sale.[At least in Germany it will be].They dont want returns,or defective products being sold,so at least I'd be happy knowing the thing is working on that level.There is always a risk in buying multiple hand items,but all you can do is minimise the risk as much as possible.

Example here for 790 euros is an Underwood with a clean walnut stock and a new barre,with proof marks l oiler ,2mags and a sling from a dealer.http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=6400698

Ask what would 790 get you here??

gunny123

These carbines are available in the north as straight pulls, making them unrestricted. I thought there was a temporary policy of not accepting applications for C/F semis at the moment ?

Did anyone ever see the film of David Marshall Williams (Carbine Williams), played by Jimmy Steward ? Williams did a lot of design work, including building prototypes of a lot of his inventions while in prison for murdering a sheriff. The M1 carbine was one of his babies afaik. Great film, and the story of Williams life is one thats hard to take in, but well worth watching.

gunny123

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muwHSj0682E

BattleCorp

gunny123 wrote: »

I thought there was a temporary policy of not accepting applications for C/F semis at the moment ?
.

Nope. Such a policy would be illegal in the absence of legislation.

A mate of mine got a licence for one about six weeks ago. Beautiful gun.

Brasros

HappyShooter wrote:

Do many people have them? (Will I be the only one at some competitions competing in the discipline?) How much is it for ammo and is it hard to get? Are they reliable? Which is the best one to buy and what is a fair price for it? Who sells them... and are they hard to licence?

The M1 carbine was contrated out by the US to ten main manfactors​. The M1,M1A1,T4,M2,T3 and M3 carbines were all produced during 38 months June 1942 to August 1945 , 6,117,827 off them.

The main contractors were:
Inland manfacturing division, general​ motors/ Winchester repeating arms/ Underwood Elliott Fisher/ Rock-Ola/ Irwin pedersen Arms/ Quality hardware and machine/ National Postal Meter/ Standard products/ Saginaw steering gear Saginaw/ Saginaw Grand rapids and I.B.M.
I am sure you know some of there companies.

The M1 carbine was designed to replace ( reduce) the Colt 1911 sidearm. There is a tremendous amount of history to the carbine as in most iconic service rifles.
There are some post WWII reproduction copies and I believe Inland are making them again with the Thompson and garand.

There are a few in Ireland which are mainly used in gallery rifle events. In saying that, you could wind up to be the only one​ shooting with one at a competition except for some of the more popular events.
Alot of the people with the M1 do go the Germany to compete every year as do with the guys from the UK which they keep there M1 stored in Germany.

The ammo is not the easiest to get and not the cheapest as stated 26 euros for 50.

Reliable? Depending on what you get, remember these guns are over 70 years old and some seeing 3 or more wars and others in service for a long time. The price determines the condition and how authentic to the factory fit.
Most carbines will have a mismatch of proof markings, different companies markings ect. Within the ten contractors the contractors shared parts with each other ( through a US government program, to help speed up production for Japanese​ mainland ), so you could have a Inland receiver, Saginaw barrel ect. There are extensive studies on the M1 mainly in the US. Prices vary from 800 to a good few thousand.
To lincence one is possible but I would imagine that there will be high condions set upon you, security ect.
Hope this helps.

Grizzly 45

Of course if Prez Trump keeps his election promises.There might be something like 250k and 200k worth of M1 garands and carbines coming home to the US from Sth Korea this year.they have been stuck in limbo over there for decades and are apprently in average condition..Average condition..Average price then.

Also,re the ammo,if 30cal was too hard to get Chiappa is making an m1 carbine copy in 9mm!! Kind of a solution to a problem that might exist in Ireland.

Brasros

Grizzly 45 wrote:

Of course if Prez Trump keeps his election promises.There might be something like 250k and 200k worth of M1 garands and carbines coming home to the US from Sth Korea this year.they have been stuck in limbo over there for decades and are apprently in average condition..Average condition..Average price then.

I believe this has started to happen and think Sarco Inc have imported some back.

HappyShooter

There is certainly great history behind the carbines. If I was going to get one I'd go for the .30 carbine, while 9mm is easier to get and probably cheaper it just wouldn't have the same feel to it!

Thanks Grizzly, I'll look into those sites and hopefully find something worthwhile!

Brasros wrote: »

To lincence one is possible but I would imagine that there will be high condions set upon you, security ect.
Hope this helps.

Would you know what conditions they could set?

Grizzly 45

HappyShooter wrote: »

Would you know what conditions they could set?

Depends entirely on your cheif super..The biggest hurdle is convincing them that you have "extra good reason" to own a mag loaded centre fire rifle that's nigh on 75 years old and wholly obsolete in modern warfare or police usage.:rolleyes: There have been horror stories of people been limited to literally taking their gun to and from their designated range and finding it impossible to go to competitions anywhere else.
But apart from the issue for secure storage in your house,they are pretty much otherwise treated then as normal firearms. Nothing on mag restrictions or whatever...[HINT If you do buy this.I would advise you to buy as many over ten shot mags as you can lay your hands on,as they will become very expensive after the EU directive comes into play,if they are still available that is too.]
This is from experiance from one lad in Limerick who did the "DC shuffle " for an M1 carbine and Garand.He got to keep the M1 carbine due to" the age and difficulty in finding ammo for it." and lost his 308 Italian Garand,due to " Inspector Google "of the ballistics dept deliberately confusing the issue of 308 and 7.62 NATO calibers so that the poor judge ,being an utter layman in these matters was lost and erred on the side of caution and disallowed the 308 Garand.:(:mad:

tac foley

Good reason to own M1 carbine, apart from the fun [am I allowed to write that?] is to join the VCRAI

tac

Brasros

HappyShooter wrote:

Would you know what conditions they could set?

Have a chat to the guys that own one in your club direct and see what they got to say.

HappyShooter

Thanks all. I'm in contact with 2 dealers at the moment trying to source a carbine and if they don't come up with something relatively soon I'll have a look abroad!

gunny123

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

There have been horror stories of people been limited to literally taking their gun to and from their designated range and finding it impossible to go to competitions anywhere else.

Why has this nonsense of supers/chief supers setting conditions never been taken to task. How does limiting someones opportunities to use a firearm, or travel a bit to a competition make holding a restricted firearm safer ?

Grizzly 45

Back in the bad old days Gunny,around 2010 to 12 I belive.Before we became "empowered"to go and open our mouths about such carry on.
I would hope that if anyone got that sort of treatment today they would be making an utter hue&cry l that the person who put those conditions on the permit wished they would have second thoughts on it.:)

tac foley

gunny123 wrote: »

Why has this nonsense of supers/chief supers setting conditions never been taken to task. How does limiting someones opportunities to use a firearm, or travel a bit to a competition make holding a restricted firearm safer ?

It doesn't, Gunny. And we all know that to be a fact. I'm still having a hard time after many years trying to figure out how this 'restricted' thing actually makes sense.

In fact, it makes no sense at all, except in a Kafka-esque world that the 'law-makers' inhabit.

As for why certain members of AGS have such widely disparate views on the passage and transportation of legally-owned firearms in the Republic, when the main problem in Ireland is passage and transportation of the tens of thousands of ILLEGAL firearms into the Republic, is because they can. Just that.

tac

Brasros

HappyShooter wrote:

Thanks all. I'm in contact with 2 dealers at the moment trying to source a carbine and if they don't come up with something relatively soon I'll have a look abroad!

Happyshooter you have placed a idea in my head, did you get any joy on the carbine.

Wadi14

I see a few on egun

Brasros

Wadi14 wrote:

I see a few on egun

Egun?

BillBen

Egun.de a German website

HappyShooter

Brasros wrote: »

Happyshooter you have placed a idea in my head, did you get any joy on the carbine.

Hey

Unfortunately, I haven't heard back from any dealers yet, It seems they aren't entirely interested in the sale
I've been crazy busy with work recently but if I don't hear anything sometime soon I will look into importing from abroad!

HS

gunny123

Young guns in Castledawson have a stack of m1's converted to straight pull. It might be worth an email or phone call to see if their supplier can get you a semi-auto.

http://www.young-guns.org.uk/products/m1-carbine-30-cal-straight-pull-rifles/

tac foley

The GREAT thing about living, and shooting, in the Republic of Ireland is that you CAN have semi-auto centre fire rifles and carbines, unlike the poor b*ggers in UK who can't, since 1988.

Please, I beg you, take FULL advantage of this fact, and leave the straight-pull versions to those poor folk who are prohibited from having anything else except the .22 look-alike.

tac

HappyShooter

gunny123 wrote: »

Young guns in Castledawson have a stack of m1's converted to straight pull. It might be worth an email or phone call to see if their supplier can get you a semi-auto.

http://www.young-guns.org.uk/products/m1-carbine-30-cal-straight-pull-rifles/

Thanks Gunny I'll drop them a mail!

Grizzly 45

gunny123 wrote: »

Young guns in Castledawson have a stack of m1's converted to straight pull. It might be worth an email or phone call to see if their supplier can get you a semi-auto.

http://www.young-guns.org.uk/products/m1-carbine-30-cal-straight-pull-rifles/

Unless they are a Sect five dealer,they wont be able to handle or aquire a sect 5 firearm .:(

gunny123

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Unless they are a Sect five dealer,they wont be able to handle or aquire a sect 5 firearm .:(

They have a good selection of pistols, so i presume that makes them section 5 ?

http://www.young-guns.org.uk/category/departments/handguns/?post_type=products

Grizzly 45

AH! They are NI.Thought they were UK... My bad!. So this is then the weird bit.They can sell and buy pistols under NI law but cant deal with SA rifles under NI law. So if you want a SA rifle you still need to deal with the UK sect 5 dealer or the EU..
As an aside,whats the story with stocked pistols in NI?? Classified as pistols or ??? I G17 with a Hera arms Triari or Kopiss stock would make a decent carbine.

gunny123

Helston in Cornwall have always amazed me with the kit they stock, everything from a silenced glock to a main battle tank. Worth contacting to if you are stuck.

http://www.helstongunsmiths.com/default.asp?ID=405&CB=4%2F12%2F2017+1%3A34%3A26+AM

http://www.helstongunsmiths.com/default.asp?ID=969&CB=4%2F12%2F2017+1%3A41%3A12+AM

One for you grizz

http://www.helstongunsmiths.com/default.asp?ID=870&CB=4%2F12%2F2017+1%3A39%3A03+AM

tac foley

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

AH! They are NI.Thought they were UK... My bad!. So this is then the weird bit.They can sell and buy pistols under NI law but cant deal with SA rifles under NI law. So if you want a SA rifle you still need to deal with the UK sect 5 dealer or the EU..
As an aside,whats the story with stocked pistols in NI?? Classified as pistols or ??? I G17 with a Hera arms Triari or Kopiss stock would make a decent carbine.

Uh, Northern Ireland IS part of the UK.

AFAIK there are NO Section 5 dealers in Northern Ireland.

As the NIA told Westminster to go p*ss up a rope back in 1997 with regard to the handgun ban, handguns in Northern Ireland are still regarded as ordinary Section 1 Firearms.

With regard to firearms law in general - this -

More than 100,000 people in Northern Ireland own firearms, having 380,000 among them. Gun control laws in Northern Ireland are less restrictive than gun laws in the rest of the UK, due to the Good Friday Agreement, allowing Northern Ireland to govern itself and pass less restrictive laws. Gun laws in Northern Ireland are primarily affected by the Firearms (Northern Ireland) Order 2004. Under the new law, first-time buyers will be required to demonstrate they can be trusted with the firearm. It will be up to firearms dealers selling the products to tell new buyers, and those upgrading their firearms, about the safety procedures. Firearm possessors in Northern Ireland must not transport their firearms to Great Britain. All gun owners in Northern Ireland are required to apply for a Firearm Certificate to possess firearms. Permits are normally issued to anyone who has good reason to possess firearms, such as target shooting, hunting, and personal protection.

Northern Ireland is the only part of the United Kingdom where personal protection is accepted as a legitimate reason to obtain and own a firearm and is the only part of the United Kingdom where handguns are permitted. Semi-automatic rifles are only permitted when chambered in .22 calibre (with certain exceptions). Handguns and Shotguns are permitted in any calibre. There is no limit on magazine capacity for rifles and handguns, and the magazine limit for shotguns is 2 rounds. Also, carrying a firearm in plain view in a public place is allowed without a permit. Open carry of handguns is not common. However, in the countryside, people will often open carry loaded rifles and shotguns. A firearm certificate for a personal protection weapon will only be authorised where the Police Service of Northern Ireland deems there is a ‘verifiable specific risk’ to the life of an individual and that the possession of a firearm is a reasonable, proportionate and necessary measure to protect their life. Permits for personal protection also allow the holder to carry their firearms concealed. They may also allow the holder to possess fully automatic weapons and center fire semi-automatics in some instances.

If you can bear to read the next load of cr*p, this explains how the ordinary Joe in Great Britain CAN own a handgun, sort of.

http://bedfordgunclub.co.uk/heritage.html

Not for me, though. Having 'visiting rights' to see my handguns, and get supervised by some snotty-nosed dwong while shooting it/them, is not my idea of shooting fun. I'll just carry on shooting number of handguns that used to be mine while I'm over in PACNW.

tac

BillBen

Very happy man. The grant letter came this morning for my m1 carbine

HappyShooter

BillBen wrote: »

Very happy man. The grant letter came this morning for my m1 carbine

Congrats! Happy shooting, hopefully I'll be joining you soon.

tac foley

Promise me you won't buy a "^&($££%$ straight-pull!

tac

Brasros

tac foley wrote:

Promise me you won't buy a "^&($££%$ straight-pull!

The only straight pull I would consider would be the k-31

tac foley

Brasros wrote: »

The only straight pull I would consider would be the k-31

Phew...........................:D

tac

PS- no hyphen in K31, just in case you apply for one any time.

Brasros

tac foley wrote:

PS- no hyphen in K31, just in case you apply for one any time.

I believe ammo is in short supply unfortunately, if it wasn't I definitely would consider one.