A ban on headphones and penalty point for cyclists...

ThisRegard

..has been proposed by the Irish Road Haulage Association at the Oireachtas Committee for Transport.

Can't find a media link yet to see if they provided any research to back their calls up, heard it on the headlines on one of the wireless stations.

LpPepper

So will motorists be banned from using earphones or listening to music at a high volume while driving?

magicbastarder

not that i'm expecting a different answer, but are they calling on a ban on headphones, or just a ban on cyclists wearing headphones?

HeidiHeidi

How do you give penalty points to cyclists who don't have a licence?

Sounds like a total headline/attention-grabber to me.

ThisRegard

magicbastarder wrote: »

not that i'm expecting a different answer, but are they calling on a ban on headphones, or just a ban on cyclists wearing headphones?

I was sure it was a ban on cyclists wearing headphones, but you have me doubting myself now given I was working at the time and only tuned into the story when I was 'triggered' by the mention of cyclists

Armchair Andy

I'm all for heavy fines but how do they expect to impose penalty points?

SteM

This is a well thought out proposal. :P

I wear a skull cap during the winter, how would anyone be able to tell if I had a in-ear headphone underneath it?

ThisRegard

Seems like CEO of the Farm Contractors Association, who were also at the same committee today, is a closet member of boards.ie

Speaking at a hearing of the Oireachtas Transport Committee today, Michael Moroney CEO of the Farm Contractors Association (FCI) said the requirement to allow 1.5 metre space to overtake a cyclist is difficult to achieve with tractors in many N and R grade roads.

"While it is legal to cycle two abreast, in many situations FCI members meet groups of cyclists travelling four abreast with little interest in other road users.

"We have noted that some of these cyclists are moving at speeds in excess of 40km/hr while the proposal is that tractors at these speeds have to undergo an NCT test.

"There is no special licence required, no formal training needed and and no NCT on bicycles that are rated for speeds in excess of 40km/hr.

"There are more accidents with cyclists than with tractors," he said.

http://www.independent.ie/business/farming/machinery/tractor-drivers-hit-out-at-cyclists-travelling-sometimes-four-abreast-on-country-roads-35555012.html

no NCT on bicycles that are rated for speeds in excess of 40km/hr.

robyntmorton

I read the thread title and immediately thought "Oh God, another motorist has found their way into the cycling forum"

Is that wrong of me?

Also, it does sound very headline grabbing, but would be entirely unenforceable to give cyclists penalty points.

Cantona's Collars

What about a ban on eejits wearing headphones while driving,not the usual earpiece for hands free but actual over the ear headphones.
I've no problem with people wearing headphones while cycling,I've done it since I was young,the problem is forgetting to look around before pulling into traffic etc. That's a basic given whether walking across the road,driving or cycling.
We've all seen people do stupid things when they forget about observation.
I'm sure many here saw the video of the truck driver in England wiping out a family as he messed with his iPod while driving and hauliers want them banned for cyclists??

Chips Lovell

Tractorman's contribution is a feat of logical reasoning, the like of which hasn't been seen since the death of Aristotle. This man is wasted in the Farm Contractors Association.

magicbastarder

ThisRegard wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/business/farming/machinery/tractor-drivers-hit-out-at-cyclists-travelling-sometimes-four-abreast-on-country-roads-35555012.html

note the use of the photo showing three cyclists engaging in criminal behaviour, cycling three abreast across a road. a road that a car would not be able to pass a single cyclist on.

Indricotherium

Weepsie wrote: »

http://www.irha.ie/contact-us.html

Perhaps they should be contacted regarding how moronic the idea is and that should we ban stereos from Trucks etc

Banning loud music from the cabs of large vehicles is probably a good thing.

However, given the drastically more severe consequences to a cyclist who is involved in a traffic accident, I feel it is fair to directly target cyclist behaviour that reduces their ability to concentrate on, and be aware of the traffic surrounding them.

In saying that, I'm not aware of any studies linking headphones with accidents (but I have never looked for them either)

tomasrojo

A cyclist was once given penalty points by a judge though? About five years ago?

(Not that this is a sensible proposal in general, I hasten to add.)

Wolverine359

I heard it on Today Fm news there after 11am. I think it mentioned banning pedestrians and drivers using headphones too? And also, they want to make helmets compulsory, and a dress code, banning cyclists from wearing certain types of clothing like jeans. That last part sounds like a joke but yeah, apparently they've spend loads of money on research for this.

HeidiHeidi

tomasrojo wrote: »

A cyclist was once given penalty points by a judge though? About five years ago?

(Not that this is a sensible proposal in general, I hasten to add.)

To be attached to what, though?

niceonetom

It takes a special kind of nastiness and stupidity to conclude that the answer to lorries killing cyclists is to impose more penalties on cyclists.

tomasrojo

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

Tractorman's contribution is a feat of logical reasoning, the like of which hasn't been seen since the death of Aristotle. This man is wasted in the Farm Contractors Association.

Old "Men have more teeth than women" Aristotle, eh?

tomasrojo

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

To be attached to what, though?

The cyclist had a driver's licence.

DKmac

How much does a motorcyclist hear under their helmet? Or a driver with his stereo blasting? Or a pedestrian with headphones?

It comes down to personal vigilance and care. I've cycled many times with and without and can confirm that with headphones did not effect my ability to see what's coming at junctions or hold my road position. It also did not make me less visible to drivers as far as I know. Hearing what's coming behind me makes no difference once I hold my position on the road correctly. In my opinion a nervous cyclist would only be more erratic reacting to the sound of a big rig. Add to that most of the muppets who have no consideration for cyclists on the roads drive past at such a pace to prove their point that you don't hear them coming anyway. You wouldn't pass a horse and rider the way some motorists drive yet its ok for a cyclist to get the treatment.

Its a cop out for careless driving, "I smashed into the cyclist because he couldn't hear me" not "I should have been able to see him as I approached at a reasonable speed!".

wotswattage

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

How do you give penalty points to cyclists who don't have a licence?

Sounds like a total headline/attention-grabber to me.

Well they can ban a driver who has never had a drivers licence. Though that's a bit of a logic fail seeing as to get the ban they would already be driving without a licence in the first place...

Fines yes, I can't see points working though.

To generalise, many of the really dodgy moves I see are made by cyclists wearing headphones seemingly in their own world (whether I'm driving or unfortunately less often, cycling). I'm talking genuinely dodgy close call stuff - changing Lane into faster moving traffic, undertaking a vehicle indicating left etc. Not just common or garden disobedience of the rules of the road...

Chips Lovell

I am somewhat disappointed at the lack of imagination in terms of suggested punishments. Penalty points for cyclists? Yawn. Why not roadside branding?

magicbastarder

wotswattage wrote: »

To generalise, many of the really dodgy moves I see are made by cyclists wearing headphones seemingly in their own world

i think this is a classic case of confusion of correlation and causation though? the headphones did not turn them into idiots, they were born that way. or we blame the parents.

andy69

DKmac wrote: »

How much does a motorcyclist hear under their helmet?....

Good point - I used to wear earplugs in my ears because there is a sort of 'bell' effect as ye go faster on a bike (probably not relevant for city centres as ye can ride along there with the visor up and what have ye). It was fairly common as I understood it, it wasn't just me wearing them

edit: http://www.webbikeworld.com/Earplugs/earplugs.htm

magicbastarder

Wolverine359 wrote: »

And also, they want to make helmets compulsory

i must write to them and ask them which bike helmets are HGV proof.

magicbastarder

btw, can someone confirm it was the IRHA who made the calls? the indo article linked only mentions the Farm Contractors Association.

AMGer

Rules of the road should apply to cyclists aswell, most seem oblivious to observing any rules but their own. How to enforce it though is the hard part.
Anyone who wears headphones either on a bike or driving a car is an idiot IMO with little regard for their own safety or the safety of others.

ThisRegard

magicbastarder wrote: »

btw, can someone confirm it was the IRHA who made the calls? the indo article linked only mentions the Farm Contractors Association.

It's what I'm sure I heard on Newstalk, and I've been frantically trying to find an online source ever since!

edit: Just tuned in here for the live broadcast, http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/watchlisten/watchlive/committeeroom4/ and was immediately met by someone saying agreeing with the haulage rep that everybody should be wearing high-vis vests, pedestrians and cyclists.

The lady from the IRHA is making the point that a bulb can go in your light, like in vehicles, but a vest is not likely to blow off you.


EDIT @magicbastarder, I can rest easy now without fear of being sued for misrepresentation http://www.southeastradio.ie/2017/03/irha-wants-to-ban-headphones-for-cyclists-and-pedestrians/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

A call’s been made for new laws to ban cyclists AND PEDESTRIANS wearing headphones.

The Irish Road Haulage Association’s suggested it at the Oireachtas Committee on Transport this morning.

They also want cyclists subjected to penalty points similar to other road users.

The groups President Verona Murphy says everyone who uses the roads should follow the same rules.

DKmac

wotswattage wrote: »

To generalise, many of the really dodgy moves I see are made by cyclists wearing headphones seemingly in their own world (whether I'm driving or unfortunately less often, cycling). I'm talking genuinely dodgy close call stuff - changing Lane into faster moving traffic, undertaking a vehicle indicating left etc. Not just common or garden disobedience of the rules of the road...

Firstly how can you prove the headphones were actually on? And secondly how can you confidently say this doesn't happen with the same regularity for cyclists without headphones?

Mint Sauce

Putting the headphones aside for a moment, but did I read that right, NCT or similar for bikes. I am all for bikes being in good nick on the road, but where will it stop, will little Jenny's tassels on her handlebars be within a certain length.



As the headphones, I will put my hand up, and admit to cycling with an in ear headphone in my left ear, but do also see many drivers with their in ear phones clearly visible, buy a bluetooth speaker for feck sake.

It's clearly an attempt from the anti cyclists brigade, pissed off by all the sactions imposed on them as drivers.

DKmac

I'd suggest you see more cyclists swerve into the road when they hear external noises like dogs barking passing a gate than listening to music,radio whatever.

velo.2010

Stop cyclists wearing headphones? Yes, so they can hear the angry, impatient truck driver revving their engine to intimidate the cyclist off the road to let them pass.

Hauliers may argue that a cyclist who hears a nearby truck may act in a way so that they avoid being hit.... that's nonsense.... a cyclist shouldn't have to act. Seeing what's where by both cyclist and driver is the most important factor. If the driver isn't sure then they must hold back until they are visually sure they can pass safely. The sound of the revving engine or beeping horn plays no part... that's actually road rage.

Personally, I wouldn't wear earphones etc, but once a cyclist is adhering to the rules of the road, they should not have to force themselves into a even tighter space to let a tardy truck driver on his speedy way to his next drop.

That also applies to the farmers. In their case, they seem to acknowledge that they tend to only come across 'proper' cyclists. If you can do 40kph and match the speed of the tractor then you should be NCT'ed, and if your on country lanes wearing jeans then you should not be cycling on those roads. Again , nonsense.

ThisRegard

Mint Sauce wrote: »

pissed off by all the sactions imposed on them as drivers.

They did make the point about how heavily regulated they are, as did too did the tractor people.

Troll Hook about to start his show, lets see if he can resist picking up on it.

The IRHA lady has said that the 1.5 metre legislation is nonsensical and that's there's enough laws already there to cater for it, while she's talking about road safety.

Hrududu

Deaf cyclists are f*cked

magicbastarder

Mint Sauce wrote: »

Putting the headphones aside for a moment, but did I read that right, NCT or similar for bikes.

as long as the NCT strictly enforces UCI rules? no more tri-bars...

wotswattage

magicbastarder wrote: »

i think this is a classic case of confusion of correlation and causation though? the headphones did not turn them into idiots, they were born that way. or we blame the parents.

Of course not its an attitude thing, but someone who cycles with a pair of 'beats' over their ears is more likely to not be paying attention to their surroundings. Same goes for drivers, I'd never drive with earphones on.

Chips Lovell

magicbastarder wrote: »

i think this is a classic case of confusion of correlation and causation though? the headphones did not turn them into idiots, they were born that way. or we blame the parents.

Now, now. That kind of rational thinking could get you kicked out of the Irish Road Haulage Association.

Mint Sauce

magicbastarder wrote: »

as long as the NCT strictly enforces UCI rules? no more tri-bars...

What about Euro Rules though?

Tenzor07

Stupid and childish suggestions.. NCT for bikes mehole!

As for the headphones b**ox how will this apply to cyclists who are hearing impaired, should they be banned because it's "dangerous!!!?"

There's a video on the page with a tractor and trailer almost crushing a cyclist when the driver overtook him, they don't give two F's really!

https://www.facebook.com/pg/stayinaliveat1.5/videos/

wotswattage

DKmac wrote: »

Firstly how can you prove the headphones were actually on? And secondly how can you confidently say this doesn't happen with the same regularity for cyclists without headphones?

Note I said 'to genalise', implying that its in my own anecdotal experience. I'm not looking to defend this in a court of law.

Perhaps it's a psychological thing when you are someone do something really stupid you look for a reason why..

Both a cyclist and a motorist.

The level to which i need to use my hearing when cycling is far greater than when I'm driving, down mainly to the cycle lane either ending or being occupied, or moving between lanes myself. Also due to not have three rear mirrors and the greater risk of traffic not seeing me!

Trying to claim that motorists should have any restrictions imposed upon them that cyclists do is a false equivalency and serves nobody.

ThisRegard

The live feed is not as boring as I expected, one member of the committee took a swipe at the tractor contractor guy who complained about NCTs for their vehicles saying they're aren't all that courteous anymore and that contractors with tractors were involved in 2 fatal incidents on the public roads in his area.

DKmac

wotswattage wrote: »

Note I said 'to genalise', implying that its in my own anecdotal experience. I'm not looking to defend this in a court of law.
..

Exactly and for these reasons it will never become law.

amcalester

Deleted User wrote: »

Both a cyclist and a motorist.

The level to which i need to use my hearing when cycling is far greater than when I'm driving, down mainly to the cycle lane either ending or being occupied, or moving between lanes myself. Also due to not have three rear mirrors and the greater risk of traffic not seeing me!

Trying to claim that motorists should have any restrictions imposed upon them that cyclists do is a false equivalency and serves nobody.

Is there any evidence to show that wearing earphones increases the risk to a cyclist?

I wear earphones on my commute and can still hear traffic approaching, cars beeping etc and any near miss I have had has been caused by inattentive motorists, not my earphones.

The earphones drowns out the sound of the wind anyway, so the net effect is negligible anyway.

tomasrojo

Deleted User wrote: »

Both a cyclist and a motorist.

Let me perform my traditional role of welcoming Bimodal Jesus. For where two or three are gathered in your name, there are you with them.

Deleted User wrote: »

Trying to claim that motorists should have any restrictions imposed upon them that cyclists do is a false equivalency and serves nobody.

Tell that to the hauliers:

The groups President Verona Murphy says everyone who uses the roads should follow the same rules.

fat bloke

That hauliers are in any way preoccupied with cyclists shows how wrong the system is. HGV's and bicycles shouldn't be within an ar$e's roar of each other on any type of road network.

Miklos

Cycling with headphones is a bit dim in my opinion.

Then again, so is driving a HGV while nattering away on your mobile phone.

All I know is a cyclist listening to headphones is unlikely to smash someone into little pieces because they're not giving the road their full attention.

Chips Lovell

We already have a Headphones Megathread, for anyone who's interested in discussing the ins and outs of cycling with headphones. Lets keep this thread more to do what the IRHA and FCA are saying.

rabjoshu

Hrududu wrote: »

Deaf cyclists are f*cked

Well as long as they don't wear headphones.

07Lapierre

I'm surprised the IRHA simply don't call for a ban on cyclists!

magicbastarder

can we talk about HGVs using roads which were clearly not designed for them?
for example - the sam dennigan depot on the garristown road has resulted in a constant stream of HGVs using a road clearly not best suited for HGVs. i would not be surprised if there have already been serious RTCs on that road involving the trucks.