Question on type 1 ESB Network

olearydc

Hi There

I could be a possible EV owner soon (hopefully)

Presently have a small diesel car as a 2nd car that I use day in day out(wife has main family car) - solid and bullet proof but would like to get a older, even smaller EV as I like the concept and hopefully in a few years’ time, upgrade to a newer model

So not too pushed at the moment on mileage/size and will be using it around my area for the most part

Newbie Question

I was looking at a Renault Fluence ZE - -possibly 2012 for a fairly good price/car swap
(Understand that I will be paying a monthly battery charge - don’t mind too much as pretty low for now)
Checking websites it says it’s a Type 1 charger

Would you be able to charge this type of car with the ESB network?
The EV range is approx. 100KM -- if I buy it in Dublin, will need to use the ESB network to get down to cork if possible
Aware that the charging will take a age but would bring my boy with me and make it a day/night travel adventure 

Or could wait a bit to get a higher mileage leaf if needed (not a big budget at present )

Anyhow—would appreciate your thoughts/suggestions

Regards
Dan

KCross

What is the budget. I think you'll get better replies if people know that.

zilog_jones

olearydc wrote: »

Checking websites it says it’s a Type 1 charger

Would you be able to charge this type of car with the ESB network?

You can use a Type 1 to Type 2 cable with ESB standard AC charging points. They're readily available from third parties, e.g. evcables.co.uk which I used in the past.

It probably won't work with fast charging points. I've tried (Prius Plug-in with Type 1 to Type 2 cable) and nothing happened. The Fluence won't charge any faster off one anyway (3.5 kW charger?).

olearydc

Hi KCross

My budget is low at this point. My current cars value is approx 4500/4000 and would be able to get 1500/2000 approx so looking at something around 6000 (if dealer took my trade - or if I was able to sell my car privately)


Hi zilog_jones

Thats a good point - never reliased you could get a converter - the charge would be pretty slow to say the least but could watch a movie or 2 on a tablet while waiting if needed

unkel

You need to save a little bit more to get an early Leaf (probably about €6,500-€7,000), but that would be a far better solution than the Fluence. The range of the Fluence at this stage is probably only about 70km, it can not fast charge and you pay about a grand a year in battery lease. Unless you can get one for €2k-€3k, I wouldn't bother.

unkel

Here's a Leaf asking €6,850, if you could get that for a bit over €6k you'd do well. Just tested early so over 2 years NCT left.

Linky

Gumbo

Early lead better than fluence imo

n97 mini

Don't bother with Fluence, it takes forever to charge. It'd probably take 3 days to do Dublin to Cork (not joking).

makeorbrake

OP: If the car you're looking to replace is used 'day-in, day-out', then most likely the Fluence won't cut it - unless you're confident the cumulative mileage would be very small each day.

Even then, if you can justify it's usage, the problem is Renault and their darned battery rental. It makes no sense for them to try and sell these highly depreciated cars with such limitations whilst still trying to flog a rental deal on the battery.

As others have said, your best bet is to find a generation 1 Leaf.

peposhi

I would not touch a Fluence even with a barge poll unless I use it for a shopping basket... I may sound harsh, but Leaf is a way better option. If you are doing Dub-Cork you may need some patience as it would take a long time to complete...

makeorbrake

Mike Schooling ( indra.co.uk ) has a 2012 Fluence on ebay listed as £2800 - with no reserve. As per a thread in the speakev forum, he's open to 'silly offers' on it. Has it for well over 6 months now and cant get rid.

A use justification can be made for the car - i.e. i'm sure there's someone out there that can make use of a 'shopping trolley' to drop down the shops in. It's the battery rental that's holding it back.

unkel

What can happen if you buy the car, import it into Ireland? I mean legally / technically? I doubt the car is equipped for remote or time scheduled bricking, maybe I'm wrong. What's the legal implication if the owner in the UK stops paying his monthly rental as per his contract? I mean what's the legal implication for the Irish resident buying it and importing it here (and obviously not paying anyone any battery lease)?

If somehow you'd be in the clear, it might be worth buying...

zilog_jones

I thought I saw in another thread about a Zoe that Renault could transfer the battery lease from the UK to Ireland? Maybe I imagined that. Might be too much hassle for a Fluence though. If the range suits and you can get one dirt cheap (more €3000 than €6000) it might be worth considering.

Edit: Found post here confirming lease can be transferred (no. 13) - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=99823658&postcount=13

makeorbrake

unkel wrote: »

What can happen if you buy the car, import it into Ireland? I mean legally / technically? I doubt the car is equipped for remote or time scheduled bricking, maybe I'm wrong. What's the legal implication if the owner in the UK stops paying his monthly rental as per his contract? I mean what's the legal implication for the Irish resident buying it and importing it here (and obviously not paying anyone any battery lease)?

If somehow you'd be in the clear, it might be worth buying...

Discussed at length on that very same thread on speakev. Folks wondering if they could get away without paying the rental - but nobody with the brass balls to put it to the acid test. Also, I think there is something on-board that can disable the battery/car??

I believe it's possible to do rental transfer. The question is - given that whomever ends up with the Fluence is just going to use it for local runs each day, will they get enough usage out of it to justify the ongoing monthly rental (bearing in mind the major limitations of the car otherwise)?

cros13

I've met a couple of people who've refused the battery lease when it came due for renewal and informed renault that they could come and collect the battery.

Technically they have the right to do that.... in practice they've been letting it slide 'cause they don't know how to handle it.

I've also met one person who imported two zoes and did not sign the lease.
The issue is if you buy the vehicle from an individual or garage, Renault's finance crowd have been trying to hold them responsible for transferring the lease to you.
So you could end up screwing over the person you bought the car from.

unkel

And you reckon that there is no way the battery / car can be somehow disabled? If not, I see an opportunity

For about €2.5k - €3k landed, the Fluence would not be a bad second car at all if you didn't have to pay a monthly lease. Big bonus is that it looks alright / like a normal car. Unlike the Leaf

n97 mini

unkel wrote: »

Big bonus is that it looks alright / like a normal car. Unlike the Leaf

That's just Chademo envy

Aside from Teslas, none of the EVs here are lookers. Fluence looks boring and like a typical Renault, and with that you'd be expecting bits to fall off it every time you look at it. The EV version is slightly longer than the regular version which makes the proportions look slightly odd. But I digress.

Even if the battery lease could be sorted out the lack of quick charging seriously curtails any sort of a trip in it further than about 35 miles (you still need 35 miles to get home), and on that alone I wouldn't take one if it was free.

makeorbrake

unkel wrote: »

And you reckon that there is no way the battery / car can be somehow disabled? If not, I see an opportunity

Not at all - I'm sure it's very much possible. I don't think that's the main stumbling block. I'd imagine that it's the fear factor re. RCI chasing up for money due plus interest/fees/penalties. Perhaps that may not transpire or perhaps they would have difficulty in pursuing it....but we can only assume that's what has put people off.

You'd have to contact the seller in this instance but I *think* there's something going on in this instance whereby the seller will be looking to have an undertaking signed ref. battery rental - for his own protection - presumably because RCI have set things out in that way.

Hell, if you think that's feasible with a battery rental on a Fluence, why stop at a Fluence Why not a Zoe? After all if it wasn't for the battery lease, the Zoe would have sold a heap more units than it has.

unkel

Aye and Leaf on Flex!

Obviously the second hand Irish based buyer has not entered a battery lease contract. He probably doesn't legally own the battery, but I can't see UK companies going after Irish buyers taking out their batteries (rendering the rest of the car worthless). No court will allow that. So if technically they can't stop the cars, we're on to an opportunity here :cool:

cros13

makeorbrake wrote: »

You'd have to contact the seller in this instance but I *think* there's something going on in this instance whereby the seller will be looking to have an undertaking signed ref. battery rental - for his own protection - presumably because RCI have set things out in that way.

They do... but with it being an unusual thing some of the sellers... particularly auction houses.... are totally unaware that it's their responsibility to get confirmation from the finance company that the lease has been transferred before the cars title is transferred. Because once the car is transferred the car is yours and you have every right to refuse the battery lease. It's up to the finance company to make arrangements with you to collect their property (at their expense), if they ever decided to do that.

unkel wrote: »

Obviously the second hand Irish based buyer has not entered a battery lease contract. He probably doesn't legally own the battery, but I can't see UK companies going after Irish buyers taking out their batteries (rendering the rest of the car worthless). No court will allow that. So if technically they can't stop the cars, we're on to an opportunity here :cool:

There's no onboard modem on the fluence so no remote kill switch.

makeorbrake

cros13 wrote: »

There's no onboard modem on the fluence so no remote kill switch.

Presumably there is with the Zoe (and the flex Leaf) but should be fairly easy to disable?

cros13

makeorbrake wrote: »

Presumably there is with the Zoe (and the flex Leaf) but should be fairly easy to disable?

I draw the line morally there. The Fluence is a different story as Renault has mistreated the leaseholders by refusing battery replacements for degraded packs, financially penalising owners with indefinite battery leasing that kills their ability to re-sell the car they already paid for with the battery they've already paid more than the book value on.

makeorbrake

Can't argue with that. I thought I saw a line as I was typing up that question.:p

BoatMad

the situation with something taking on a leased battery , that an original owner has defaulted on , or where the leases is transferred and the new owner defaults , is very simple. There is outstanding finance on the car, and typically the finance company can recover the car without further legal action. They can also sue the original lease holder for all the costs, missed payments and interest based on the original contract

In essence the car was stolen !!

goz83

BoatMad wrote: »

the situation with something taking on a leased battery , that an original owner has defaulted on , or where the leases is transferred and the new owner defaults , is very simple. There is outstanding finance on the car, and typically the finance company can recover the car without further legal action. They can also sue the original lease holder for all the costs, missed payments and interest based on the original contract

In essence the car was stolen !!

That's fair enough for a leased car, but is it not a bit different on a leased battery? They couldn't legally take the car, because it's the battery that is leased. That would be like someone leasing a microwave oven for their caravan and the finance company taking the caravan with the microwave in it. Taking anything other than the leased property would be illegal. Two wrongs don't make a right.

I don't condone any illegal activity....i'm just giving my non expert opinion.

zilog_jones

cros13 wrote: »

The Fluence is a different story as Renault has mistreated the leaseholders by refusing battery replacements for degraded packs...

Wasn't that one of the main points in leasing batteries, at least from the consumer's perspective? I wonder have degraded leased batteries been replaced for any Renault/Nissan owner at all, or do the batteries have to fail completely?

BoatMad

goz83 wrote: »

That's fair enough for a leased car, but is it not a bit different on a leased battery? They couldn't legally take the car, because it's the battery that is leased. That would be like someone leasing a microwave oven for their caravan and the finance company taking the caravan with the microwave in it. Taking anything other than the leased property would be illegal. Two wrongs don't make a right.

I don't condone any illegal activity....i'm just giving my non expert opinion.

I very much doubt that the lease agreement on the battery , does not mention the car

goz83

zilog_jones wrote: »

Wasn't that one of the main points in leasing batteries, at least from the consumer's perspective? I wonder have degraded leased batteries been replaced for any Renault/Nissan owner at all, or do the batteries have to fail completely?

I've seen a youtube video of a guy in Cali who had his degraded Leaf battery replaced by Nissan. It was a 2015 battery going into (i think) a 2011 Leaf.

BoatMad wrote: »

I very much doubt that the lease agreement on the battery , does not mention the car

Without seeing the lease, it's only speculation to assume the car itself is mentioned in any other capacity, other than it being the host for the battery.

I recall seeing a plane repo show recently, where the lessee of the plane had not paid for repair work done on the planes avionics and the repair guy had (illegally) removed the avionics from the plane and held them as collateral.

BoatMad

goz83 wrote: »

I've seen a youtube video of a guy in Cali who had his degraded Leaf battery replaced by Nissan. It was a 2015 battery going into (i think) a 2011 Leaf.



Without seeing the lease, it's only speculation to assume the car itself is mentioned in any other capacity, other than it being the host for the battery.

I recall seeing a plane repo show recently, where the lessee of the plane had not paid for repair work done on the planes avionics and the repair guy had (illegally) removed the avionics from the plane and held them as collateral.

renault Zoe battery lease agreement
https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjQlv2jnu_SAhVLKMAKHS0OCM8QFggeMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmyrenaultzoe.com%2FDocs%2FBatteryHireLeaseAgreement.pdf&usg=AFQjCNHG6mvHMQ5Sa2PkNx6uWFvjRbEJDw&sig2=GEdQWINpWKNflGDNEJuP1g

Yes , it does not mention the car, so they receiver the right to recover the battery , seek costs etc

Notice the provisions against resale, or removing the car/battery from the UK etc

cros13

zilog_jones wrote: »

Wasn't that one of the main points in leasing batteries, at least from the consumer's perspective? I wonder have degraded leased batteries been replaced for any Renault/Nissan owner at all, or do the batteries have to fail completely?

That was the argument, in practice Fluence owners have ended up in a worse situation than people who owned their EV's packs.

goz83

BoatMad wrote: »

renault Zoe battery lease agreement
https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjQlv2jnu_SAhVLKMAKHS0OCM8QFggeMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmyrenaultzoe.com%2FDocs%2FBatteryHireLeaseAgreement.pdf&usg=AFQjCNHG6mvHMQ5Sa2PkNx6uWFvjRbEJDw&sig2=GEdQWINpWKNflGDNEJuP1g

Yes , it does not mention the car, so they receiver the right to recover the battery , seek costs etc

Notice the provisions against resale, or removing the car/battery from the UK etc

So, technically, the battery lease remains with the original lessee and the owner of the car is not responsible for the lease of the battery. That said, the leasing company still has the right to recover the battery, but these costs would only be recoverable from the name on the lease. Interesting situation.

BoatMad

goz83 wrote: »

So, technically, the battery lease remains with the original lessee and the owner of the car is not responsible for the lease of the battery. That said, the leasing company still has the right to recover the battery, but these costs would only be recoverable from the name on the lease. Interesting situation.

well therefore an original leaser of the battery would be very stupid to allow a leased battery to be transferred to another owner , not only is it fraud , but the original lease holder would be liable for all costs and interest etc

goz83

BoatMad wrote: »

well therefore an original leaser of the battery would be very stupid to allow a leased battery to be transferred to another owner , not only is it fraud , but the original lease holder would be liable for all costs and interest etc

Yes, they would be very stupid, but the battery lease itself is not being transferred, because the lessee does not have the contractual right to transfer/sell the battery.....and so only the car is being sold, while ownership of the battery remains with the finance company. The new vehicle owner is taking a risk if the finance company wish to recover the battery.

BoatMad

goz83 wrote: »

Yes, they would be very stupid, but the battery lease itself is not being transferred, because the lessee does not have the contractual right to transfer/sell the battery.....and so only the car is being sold, while ownership of the battery remains with the finance company. The new vehicle owner is taking a risk if the finance company wish to recover the battery.

indeed, I think this debate is rather academic , the situation where a seller would knowingly transfer a battery lease contary to the provisions of the battery lease would be vanishing small.

goz83

What is the normal process for a private seller who is selling a battery leased EV? Let's say I pop over to the UK to buy a Fluence, hand over the cash and walk away with the V5C......what next? Hypothetically speaking....as I would never buy a bev fluence :pac:

BoatMad

goz83 wrote: »

What is the normal process for a private seller who is selling a battery leased EV? Let's say I pop over to the UK to buy a Fluence, hand over the cash and walk away with the V5C......what next? Hypothetically speaking....as I would never buy a bev fluence :pac:

i dont think reality you can take the battery with you !!

cros13

goz83 wrote: »

What is the normal process for a private seller who is selling a battery leased EV? Let's say I pop over to the UK to buy a Fluence, hand over the cash and walk away with the V5C......what next? Hypothetically speaking....as I would never buy a bev fluence :pac:

You get the details of the car from the seller and sign a new lease. Since it's for export the finance company is supposed to approve the sale first and notify the seller before they can complete the sale.

How they were doing it was a form the seller & buyer used to fill out.... and the seller would send off after signing over the car.... that system didn't work well for obvious reasons... buyers saying they'd send off the form and not doing it, buyers filling incorrect or false details etc. etc. etc. etc...

goz83

It seems like a pretty horrible lease to be tied to. What if you can't sell the car (or transfer the lease).....lets say, if you lose your job? Would be silly to buy a 5+ year old car with a battery lease, as you'd never sell it on and then be stuck to paying the lease the whole time? untenable.

cros13

goz83 wrote: »

It seems like a pretty horrible lease to be tied to. What if you can't sell the car (or transfer the lease).....lets say, if you lose your job? Would be silly to buy a 5+ year old car with a battery lease, as you'd never sell it on and then be stuck to paying the lease the whole time? untenable.

Pretty much... there are stories of people who were moving to a different country and couldn't get rid of the vehicle.... even even people offering to sell the whole car to the finance company for €1/£1.

BoatMad

cros13 wrote: »

You get the details of the car from the seller and sign a new lease. Since it's for export the finance company is supposed to approve the sale first and notify the seller before they can complete the sale.

How they were doing it was a form the seller & buyer used to fill out.... and the seller would send off after signing over the car.... that system didn't work well for obvious reasons... buyers saying they'd send off the form and not doing it, buyers filling incorrect or false details etc. etc. etc. etc...

renault battery lease contains the following

"As we own the Battery, you must respect our rights of ownership and you must not:
claim ownership yourself;
sell the Battery or try to sell it;
sub-hire or otherwise allow any other person to obtain any rights over the Battery; pledge the Battery or use it as security or allow any lien to be exercised over it; dispose of the Battery."


end of story

goz83

I looked over the agreement. They fail to mention that their choice to alter the payment amounts allows the lessee to exit the agreement inside of 30 days.