Africa: The Never ending Litany of Misery

JupiterKid

It is reported that over 20 million people face starvation and famine in Africa including Somalia, South Sudan and North Nigeria. Can humanitarian aid really help these people? We've been pouring aid into Africa for over 60 years now with precious little to show for it. I well remember the 1984-85 Ethiopia crisis - nothing seems to have changed since then.:(

Is the atrocious governance of these countries the root cause of this misery and can aid actually alleviate suffering?

Africa seems to remain mired in dire poverty whilst the rest of the developing world in Asia and South America is just getting on with developing.

What is to be done? What should be done?

Slydice

Yeah, they've been at it for years and years and years trying this that and the other to "fix" it.

So... let's all throw out the first thing that comes to mind. We're bound to fix it that way.

No doubt there won't be a single bigoted, racist or semi-genocidal remark included.


Anyway. I'd say a start would a lot of digging down researching into a mix of:
- the history of what happened in the past in Africa
- how the countries of the world currently work by themselves and with each other (both politically and economically)
- finding out what has worked in the past and what has not and why and if it might be useful here

and I guess if that's all a bit too much, here's a OMG IT'S SOOO LONG @ 20mins ted talk from a minister in nigeria who has some introductory ideas:

RDM_83 again

Interesting topic and so much potential to be super patronizing, been reading a bit about the rolling intertwined Central African wars that tend to be fairly neglected in terms of attention. somebody like Paul Kagame for good or worse is a giant of a figure

Slydice wrote: »

semi-genocidal remark included.

Here's the really nasty point of view, maybe part of the issue is that what happens is only semi-genocidal, maybe genocide in the long run results in a less harmful outcome than a partial one. If the Tutsis had been annihilated and the RPF/RPA utterly crushed perhaps a lesser death toll would have occurred in the long run.

Patronizing semi-racist point of view - maybe a lot of the cultures might need to change, Christian groups get a lot of heat for their stances on contraception but maybe the deeper social systems also need to change e.g is it crazy to think Monogamy aids stability compared to systems that allow for accepted polygamy.

tiger55

So why is it the West who are always asked to pay up and feed the world?

me_irl

Johnny's got you covered.

lc180

A wise man once said : There's nothing that a hundred men or more could ever dooooooo

Ferrari3600

At least one of the country's mentioned has substantial oil reserves.

Ferrari3600

lc180 wrote: »

A wise man once said : There's nothing that a hundred men or more could ever dooooooo

Greetings pop pickers!

Which classic rock choon does this early 90s rave track sample?

snowflaker

It's amazing how Europe plundered Africa's natural resources and blame them for the mess they were left in

Richard Hillman

Human life originated in Africa.

100,000 years later, people in Sub Sahara Africa were still hunter gatherers and living in Mud Huts.

Whilst people in Europe were inventing sewerage system's, viaducts, railways, television, the world wide web.

scamalert

snowflaker wrote: »

It's amazing how Europe plundered Africa's natural resources and blame them for the mess they were left in

its not simple case like that everyone exploits africa,from oil,diamond companies,to countries like China or whoever has enough cash.
When you have barely any laws,and people in goverment who will bend over any rules and let countries exploit land and resources,without even thinking twice about its own people,doesnt matter how much money people will pour into whole continent since its so divided,that people there easily will turn on each other-smth they are decades behind from developed countries and theres no fixing it,and to blame someone who takes advantage of it is just diverting blame onto someone else and avoiding actual issue,why its happening in the first place.

Dr Crayfish

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Human life originated in Africa.

100,000 years later, people in Sub Sahara Africa were still hunter gatherers and living in Mud Huts.

Whilst people in Europe were inventing sewerage system's, viaducts, railways, television, the world wide web.

People in Europe weren't far off mud huts in parts of Ireland 100 years ago either though

RobertKK

All these regions either have conflict - the northern part of Nigeria with Boko Haram, civil war in South Sudan, or no proper government in Somalia.

Jurgen Klopp

"They've been knocking the **** out of each other for years"

- Bishop Len Brennan

Zebra3

tiger55 wrote: »

So why is it the West who are always asked to pay up and feed the world?

Western companies milk Africa.

Western governments back corrupt African regimes.

Gadaffi planned a pan-African currency to improve Africa's situation and make it more independent. The West decided this wouldn't do and had Libya bombed and him overthrown and murdered in the streets, and they also helped themselves to the billions in reserves Libya had to start up the new currency.

wakka12

snowflaker wrote: »

It's amazing how Europe plundered Africa's natural resources and blame them for the mess they were left in

Yes but it cant be blamed as the sole cause. Ireland was plundered by britain for centuries and left in utter poverty until relatively recently yet it has one of the highest qualities of life in the world now. There are other cases of this Im sure. Africa's situation cannot be blamed solly on colonialism

AnGaelach

JupiterKid wrote: »

It is reported that over 20 million people face starvation and famine in Africa including Somalia, South Sudan and North Nigeria. Can humanitarian aid really help these people? We've been pouring aid into Africa for over 60 years now with precious little to show for it. I well remember the 1984-85 Ethiopia crisis - nothing seems to have changed since then.:(

In the short-term, aid will keep them alive. In the medium and long-term however, all it does is prolong suffering and create a dependency. People are living in areas of Somalia where droughts aren't exactly a rare occurrence, they bring up their families there, because they can afford to due to humanitarian aid. With a larger population, the area can sustain proportionally fewer people, so when the next drought or famine hits (as it inevitably will), more people will suffer.

My name is URL

Zebra3 wrote: »

Gadaffi planned a pan-African currency to improve Africa's situation and make it more independent. The West decided this wouldn't do and had Libya bombed and him overthrown and murdered in the streets, and they also helped themselves to the billions in reserves Libya had to start up the new currency.

Yep, for years the West was fine with Gadaffi. We even had our own government plead with his officials to buy a stake in BoI

As soon as he started talking seriously about a pan-African currency the US soured to him, and the rest of the world followed like hungry dogs as usual

snowflaker

wakka12 wrote: »

Yes but it cant be blamed as the sole cause. Ireland was plundered by britain for centuries and left in utter poverty until relatively recently yet it has one of the highest qualities of life in the world now. There are other cases of this Im sure. Africa's situation cannot be blamed solly on colonialism

We didn't have the large natural resources of the African Continent

wakka12

snowflaker wrote: »

We didn't have the large natural resources of the African Continent

Just a completely forested Island that is now one of the least forested countries on earth, made short work of by British loggers

Del2005

snowflaker wrote: »

We didn't have the large natural resources of the African Continent

We did till they ended up in the Royal Navy and when the potato crop failed grain was being exported from Ireland. Neither Ireland or the other colonies were treated with any respect and all were robbed of their natural resources.

We are still living with a line drawn on a map and have been independent for not much longer than the other colonies. We even had a post colonial war. So apart from not being in Africa what's the difference between Ireland and African countries?

Dr Crayfish

wakka12 wrote: »

Just a completely forested Island that is now one of the least forested countries on earth, made short work of by British loggers

Estimates vary, but anywhere between 60 and 80 percent of Irish forests had already been cleared BEFORE aggressive English colonial interventions.

Autonomous Cowherd

It boggles my mind that we can have NGO types on the radio this morning telling me of the horrific impending starvation of millions of children in Yemen, without one single whisper about the US and their good Saudi Arabian buddies in Oil bombing the country and its civilians to bits.

If African countries were paid the true market value by the ''developed'' world for their natural resources from food, gold, abundant minerals, woods, oil reserves, land, and labour the African continent would be richest on the planet. Instead we live royally off the sweat of their subsistence labour and enslavement. Our ''aid'' programs are cheap beads and trinkets traded to the natives in return for their vast treasures.

My hope and sense is that African people across that vast continent are rising up slowly but surely and recognising the truth of things.

snowflaker

Del2005 wrote: »

We did till they ended up in the Royal Navy and when the potato crop failed grain was being exported from Ireland. Neither Ireland or the other colonies were treated with any respect and all were robbed of their natural resources.

We are still living with a line drawn on a map and have been independent for not much longer than the other colonies. We even had a post colonial war. So apart from not being in Africa what's the difference between Ireland and African countries?

Doesn't even come close to oil, gold and minerals

Harry Palmr

What's the most depressing is that many nations are poorer in almost every meaningful way than when they got independence from their respective colonial masters.

Zimbabwe being the poster child for throwing away a strong hand.

It's not just a black Africa thing either, look at the middle east, and yet look further afield to South East Asia in particular and the contrast is just eye-popping.

hungry hypno toad

Didn't take long for someone to blame colonialism.

Richard Hillman

How come Europeans colonised Africa and Africa didn't colonise us?

How come we had the navy's and guns and they had spears and witch-craft?

steddyeddy

tiger55 wrote: »

So why is it the West who are always asked to pay up and feed the world?

You break it you bought it.

hungry hypno toad

steddyeddy wrote: »

You break it you bought it.

What did 'we' break? I don't recall being alive 100 years ago. Europe has been the heart of 2 world wars in the last century give or take and has rebuilt & recovered. Many African counties had massive debt writeoff within the last decade. What do you expect the rest of the world to do for Africa?

Pkiernan

steddyeddy wrote: »

You break it you bought it.

More white guilt idiocy.

When will people realise that Africans are just as corrupt as everyone else ?

Del2005

snowflaker wrote: »

Doesn't even come close to oil, gold and minerals

If your resources are plundered does it matter what they are/were? You still end up with nothing.

But blaming us for the current plunder is wrong, the African elite is plundering the continent now. How come we are sending aid to countries with tanks and jet air forces? Because the leaders use the natural resources for their own gain.

JupiterKid

I don't think anything will improve for sub-Saharan Africa until its countries can begin to govern themselves properly. Until then, Africa will remain mired in abject poverty, corruption, famine, war, disease and be open to exploitation, by both the West and China. Depressing.

Aid does not solve the root problems - it only prolongs dependency.

Autonomous Cowherd

Pkiernan wrote: »

More white guilt idiocy.

When will people realise that Africans are just as corrupt as everyone else ?

Some Africans may be as corrupt as authorities elsewhere, but I guarantee you some Africans are also far, far more starving than everyone else. Does your ''white guilt idiocy'' throwaway remark make that somehow acceptable because I am failing to understand your motivation or train of thought. The kind of planetary civilisation your methodology would generate would be a frightening place.

infogiver

tiger55 wrote: »

So why is it the West who are always asked to pay up and feed the world?

Because we have all the money.

gctest50

hungry hypno toad wrote: »

................ Many African counties had massive debt writeoff within the last decade. .....................?

If they were living in adobe huts and hunting their dinner, they wouldn't have much debt

It's just the usual problem - well meaning idiots making a never ending mess of helping them

gctest50

If you want people there, you need water

If there is no "natural" water - you need a desalination plant

Tampa Bay desalination plant cost about 150 million - only supplies about 10% of demand and needs HUGE power

diomed

Most African countries got independence in the early 1960s. They should be getting their act together soon.
Comments about exploiting African gold and minerals are a bit daft. These are commodities that trade in a competitive market.

Roger Hassenforder

Richard Hillman wrote: »

How come Europeans colonised Africa and Africa didn't colonise us?

How come we had the navy's and guns and they had spears and witch-craft?

A good read is Jared Diamonds 'Guns, germs and steel'
https://g.co/kgs/usoQIa

Glenster

agreed. Africa is rubbish, but so is abbeyleix and offaly and youghal.

and they have also been nonsense for at least the sixties.

really if you leave a city in ireland it's not 100 miles away from life in boko haram-controlled territory

4068ac1elhodqr

Deweaponisation should be top of their list, but may not be agreeable with that industry.

Africa could perhaps look to China to help fix their issues, can't say they'll be any better treated, but if they get the opportunity to join BRICSv2 (such as Pakistan, Sri Lanka and Mexico), it's worth a gamble.

Primarily good with infrastructure (they build new roads overnight in Angola), China could probably help with vertical farming, desalination plants and all that jazz. Failing all that, just call on Bono's offshore funds to help fix up the entire continent.

wakka12

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

Some Africans may be as corrupt as authorities elsewhere, but I guarantee you some Africans are also far, far more starving than everyone else. Does your ''white guilt idiocy'' throwaway remark make that somehow acceptable because I am failing to understand your motivation or train of thought. The kind of planetary civilisation your methodology would generate would be a frightening place.

And is blaming colonianilism/white people for africas current struggles helping them?

Irish Praetorian

Zebra3 wrote: »

Western companies milk Africa.

Western governments back corrupt African regimes.

Gadaffi planned a pan-African currency to improve Africa's situation and make it more independent. The West decided this wouldn't do and had Libya bombed and him overthrown and murdered in the streets, and they also helped themselves to the billions in reserves Libya had to start up the new currency.

Western counties do indeed make a killing in Africa, as do Chinese ones, American ones and Indian ones, pretty much companies from all over the world.

More importantly, how does this Libya nonsense get repeated every thread without fail? No, Gaddaffi was not about to cobble together some world changing currency from a pittance of gold reserves and a collection of nearby states which despised him. No 'de West' did not decide to intervene and crush this nascent effort to 'improve Africa's situation' and cunningly pilfer those reserves themselves.

Perhaps, if we are being serious at trying to explain the situation in Africa, we should examine the willingness of ourselves and others to be taken in by ridiculous convenient conspiracy theories rather that dealing with practical boring issues like infrastructure or tariffs.

Autonomous Cowherd

wakka12 wrote: »

And is blaming colonianilism/white people for africas current struggles helping them?

A re-ordering of our approach to Africa that is not a relic of colonialism might help.

“In 2010, fuel and mineral exports from Africa were worth $333 billion, more than seven times the value of the aid that went in the opposite direction (and that is before you factor in the vast sums spirited out of the continent through corruption and tax fiddles). The empires of colonial Europe and the Cold War superpowers have given way to a new form of dominion over the continent that serves as the mine of the world — new empires controlled not by nations but by alliances of unaccountable African rulers governing through shadow states, middlemen who connect them to the global resource economy, and multinational companies from the West and the East that cloak their corruption in corporate secrecy,” Source - “The Looting Machine: Warlords, Oligarchs, Corporations, Smugglers, and the Theft of Africa’s Wealth,” by Tom Burgis

RDM_83 again

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

A good read is Jared Diamonds 'Guns, germs and steel'
https://g.co/kgs/usoQIa

Its got interesting ideas and it does shift the conversation but on a deeper level its not a great book, there is numerous serious legitimate criticisms of it.

suicide_circus

Did someone say white middle class guilt trip? Sign me up!

LeinsterDub

tiger55 wrote: »

So why is it the West who are always asked to pay up and feed the world?

Because we are unbelievably rich compared to the rest of the world

diomed

“In 2010, fuel and mineral exports from Africa were worth $333 billion, more than seven times the value of the aid that went in the opposite direction (and that is before you factor in the vast sums spirited out of the continent through corruption and tax fiddles). The empires of colonial Europe and the Cold War superpowers have given way to a new form of dominion over the continent that serves as the mine of the world — new empires controlled not by nations but by alliances of unaccountable African rulers governing through shadow states, middlemen who connect them to the global resource economy, and multinational companies from the West and the East that cloak their corruption in corporate secrecy,” Source - “The Looting Machine: Warlords, Oligarchs, Corporations, Smugglers, and the Theft of Africa’s Wealth,” by Tom Burgis

Is trade a bad thing?

nice_guy80

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Human life originated in Africa.

100,000 years later, people in Sub Sahara Africa were still hunter gatherers and living in Mud Huts.

Whilst people in Europe were inventing sewerage system's, viaducts, railways, television, the world wide web.

Carthaginians and cities in Mesopotamia had sewage and viaducts long before anything in Europe

Africa has been raped and pillaged by western countries and now western companies for its
people - slavery, cheap labour
natural resources - oil, gold diamonds, land, gas etc

bucketybuck

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

My hope and sense is that African people across that vast continent are rising up slowly but surely and recognising the truth of things.

I wish they would get a ****ing move on.

milehip

diomed wrote: »

Most African countries got independence in the early 1960s. They should be getting their act together soon.
/quote]

Soon??

Come onto fuk Africa get your **** together ffs.

Africa is like the perennial debs date make up routine

I'm almost ready

Any minute now.....

Scary to think its population is forecast to grow by 2 billion( yep with a b) by the end of the century.

At least its China is doing the magic beans trick now so that should take the heat off Whitey for future generations.

Roger Hassenforder

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Its got interesting ideas and it does shift the conversation but on a deeper level its not a great book, there is numerous serious legitimate criticisms of it.

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