Is it illegal to not give metric when advertising in Ireland?

For instance, when you see a house advertised but the advertiser only gives feet (to make it look bigger than it is, one can safely assume). Is there nothing in Irish law which compels them to put the property/product in metric?

If so, what is the relevant law they are breaching?

Mr. Incognito

Is there nothing in Irish law which compels them to put the property/product in metric?

Not that I am aware of.

GM228

Not my field of expertise, but does the European Communities (Units of Measurement) Regulations 1992 and the Metrology Act 1996 not require metric to be used by law for all but a retail transaction or for packaged goods.

coylemj

A house (and a car for that matter) is not sold based on dimensions, they are simply provided as information and in virtually every case, there will be a strongly worded disclaimer stating that the measurements contained in the description do not constitute part of the terms and conditions of the sale i.e. do your own measurements.

As with the mileage on cars, people are free to quote imperial or metric since that measurement is not the determining factor in setting the price, which is where regulation cuts in.

Victor

coylemj wrote: »

A house ... is not sold based on dimensions

Every property transaction is about dimensions. Why do you think the dimensions are a prime feature in the advertising? The legal and property industries are Luddites and the state a laggard.

they are simply provided as information and in virtually every case, there will be a strongly worded disclaimer stating that the measurements contained in the description do not constitute part of the terms and conditions of the sale i.e. do your own measurements.

This doesn't stop advertising regulations applying.

nuac

Victor wrote: »

Every property transaction is about dimensions. Why do you think the dimensions are a prime feature in the advertising? The legal and property industries are Luddites and the state a laggard.

This doesn't stop advertising regulations applying.

Every budding estate agent learns the word "circa" abbreviated to "ca" on his first day in the trade.

nuac

This metrification lark will never catch on

E.g

The woods are lonely, dark and deep
But I have promises to keep
And kilometres to go ere I sleep?

Doesn't scan. Apologies to any owners of Frost copyright

coylemj

Victor wrote: »

Every property transaction is about dimensions. Why do you think the dimensions are a prime feature in the advertising? The legal and property industries are Luddites and the state a laggard.

Mileage is also an essential feature when you're looking at a secondhand car but it is not a primary factor which determines the selling price - as is the case with carpets, petrol, milk, potatoes etc. That is the difference and is why you can quote floor areas in any units you please - or none at all.

Victor wrote: »

This doesn't stop advertising regulations applying.

What regulations? Every property ad. features disclaimers on the dimensions to the extent that the estate agent can quote any dimensions he pleases - those of a house double the size if he wants to and the consumer has no redress. Caveat emptor applies all the way, same as with the auctioneer's description of the location and the condition of the house.

I can see where someone might be annoyed at being sold say an American pint (473 ml) when it would be reasonable to expect an imperial pint (568 ml).

The house is what it is - you can measure it up yourself when viewing and more than likely the house was originally laid out in feet and inches.

Practically I will be building a home soon - I am hoping to do everything in metric where possible but there are plenty out there who still think in feet and inches.

Edit: it is pretty cool that the castle ruins are included. I wouldn't hazard to guess what units of measure were used for that.

I'm encountering the same refusal to give the metric measurement lark while looking for flooring. The entire industry works in a thing called yards squared. In 2017. There is no onus on them to give a metre squared price, it appears - or else they are all breaching their legal obligation.

For instance, this advert tells me the price per sq yd. It also gives me the price of the 'pack' and as the size of each pack changes depending on the supplier and retailer, it is shag all use to me for making a price comparison across all competitors.

It does not tell me the price per sqm, which is the only price I need to compare all products. The problem is that this is not limited to Chadwicks so it's not a matter of not giving that company my business. This intentional obscurantism is industry wide; I had precisely the same problem in Heiton Buckley's a few weeks ago.

If I go into a local supermarket the consumer must give me the price per 100g, and the consumer can make comparisons. Is it legal for the flooring retailers of this state to not provide a similar per m2 price on their advertising?

If it is not legal, what organisation could I write to in order to get them to compel these companies to abide by the relevant consumer information legislation?

coylemj

Deleted User wrote: »

The entire industry works in a thing called yards squared.

..... For instance, this advert tells me the price per sq yd. ..... it is shag all use to me for making a price comparison across all competitors.

So .... the entire DIY industry quotes price per sq. yard.

And this prevents you from 'making a price comparison across all competitors'

coylemj

coylemj wrote: »

So .... the entire DIY industry quotes price per sq. yard.

And this prevents you from 'making a price comparison across all competitors'

Er, clearly I'm talking about the flooring industry. And, yes, as I'm not 90 years old and never was taught about yards, never mind the subjective and equally comical "pack size", in the school system of this state there is no information given in a measurement system which is comprehensible to most people in Ireland in 2017.

coylemj

How can you claim that you can't do a price comparison if they are all quoting price per sq. yard?

The reason they're not quoting price per sq. m. is because that will make them look more expensive relative to the competition - nobody is prepared to jump first.

A yard is 36 inches, a metre is 39.37 inches so there are roughly 1.2 sq yards to a sq. metre.

coylemj

coylemj wrote: »

The reason they're not quoting price per sq. m. is because that will make them look more expensive relative to the competition - nobody is prepared to jump first.

Precisely that, and that far fewer people in Ireland in 2017 know what a square yard is in comparison to the number of people who know what a square metre is. It's obscurantism and impeding our ability to get accurate price information.

The food industry, to take one of numerous industries, is not allowed sell us things in ounces or pecks or quarts or whatever without putting the product's information per 100g. Is there no law compelling building supply companies to do similar?

coylemj

Twice you have avoided the principal point I have put to you in the recent discussion - how can you claim not to be able to do a price comparison when all of your prospective suppliers are quoting the price per sq. yard i.e. using the same base unit?

Even if you haven't a clue what a sq. yard is, you can still compare prices.

coylemj

coylemj wrote: »

Twice you have avoided the principal point I have put to you in the recent discussion - how can you claim not to be able to do a price comparison when all of your prospective suppliers are quoting the price per sq. yard i.e. using the same base unit?

Even if you haven't a clue what a sq. yard is, you can still compare prices.

More than twice it has been asked about the legality of these firms not giving prices in metric, and you've not answered. A google of the legality of what they're doing throws up a thread here about 6 years ago where you were also defending the imposition of imperial measurements in Ireland, oddly enough.

At any rate, because not every one of them are; the more ethical businesses/ the ones not trying to hide their price by using imperial to make it sound cheaper are using metric but they are about 10% of the market. So because the vast majority of the market refuses to use metric the entire market cannot be compared. And why, when all measurements used in building the house are in metric, we should be compelled to change our measurement system to facilitate floor suppliers' dodgy use of imperial measurements to sell to us has not been explained. You can be sure all the engineers who made the machines for the floors, and everybody else in that industry, used metric. Advertising these floors only in imperial measurements is nothing but a shyster move.

gctest50

[Deleted User] wrote: »

.... You can be sure all the engineers who made the machines for the floors,......, used metric. .

You what mate ?

gctest50

[Deleted User] wrote: »

.... You can be sure all the engineers who made the machines for the floors,......, used metric. .

gctest50

You what mate ?

[Deleted User] wrote: »

"Mod deletion

?

Anyway have you anything to back up your claim ?

[Deleted User] wrote: »

....... You can be sure all the engineers who made the machines for the floors, and everybody else in that industry, used metric............

or did you pull it out of your hat ?


Then you want the Queens English, but don't want to use her measurement ?

[Deleted User] wrote: »

"Mate"? If you've a problem speak English,.

.

looksee

Further, 4 square yards is not the same as 4 yards square. Or likewise with metres.

ohnonotgmail

Deleted User wrote: »

More than twice it has been asked about the legality of these firms not giving prices in metric, and you've not answered. A google of the legality of what they're doing throws up a thread here about 6 years ago where you were also defending the imposition of imperial measurements in Ireland, oddly enough.

At any rate, because not every one of them are; the more ethical businesses/ the ones not trying to hide their price by using imperial to make it sound cheaper are using metric but they are about 10% of the market. So because the vast majority of the market refuses to use metric the entire market cannot be compared. And why, when all measurements used in building the house are in metric, we should be compelled to change our measurement system to facilitate floor suppliers' dodgy use of imperial measurements to sell to us has not been explained. You can be sure all the engineers who made the machines for the floors, and everybody else in that industry, used metric. Advertising these floors only in imperial measurements is nothing but a shyster move.

there is nothing obliging them to quote prices in square meters. your question has now been answered.

Chadwicks and Heaton Buckley are part of the same groupe as Woodies.

nuac

Mod
Fuaranach
"retard" is an offensive term. Pls do not use it here[/B]

Claw Hammer

Deleted User wrote: »

Er, clearly I'm talking about the flooring industry. And, yes, as I'm not 90 years old and never was taught about yards, never mind the subjective and equally comical "pack size", in the school system of this state there is no information given in a measurement system which is comprehensible to most people in Ireland in 2017.

Your complaint is more about your education or lack of it that about a legal problem.

Claw Hammer

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Your complaint is more about your education or lack of it that about a legal problem.

Nah, it's not. As made clear by the thread title, it's about whether retailers are acting within the law when they refuse to give the metric value of the product they are selling.

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

there is nothing obliging them to quote prices in square meters. your question has now been answered.

True, my question is now answered. Unfortunately, not correctly. In the meantime, I have been reliably informed elsewhere that all of these firms are, in fact, in breach of Irish law by refusing to state the price of their products in metric. Specifically, they are in breach of Section 7 of S.I. No. 255/1992 - European Communities (Units of Measurement) Regulations, 1992. GM228 above was correct so fair play to her/him for getting the law correct.

7. (1) ( a ) A unit which ceases to be authorised may continue to be used until the 31st day of December, 1999, as a supplementary indication accompanying an indication of a quantity expressed in an authorised unit.

( b ) The indication expressed in an authorised unit shall predominate and a supplementary indication shall be expressed in characters no larger than those of the corresponding indication in an authorised unit.

( c ) In case of conflict between an indication of quantity expressed in an authorised unit and a supplementary indication, the latter shall be disregarded.

(2) Subject to paragraph (3), a unit of measurement which ceases to be authorised may continue to be used for—

( a ) products and equipment already on the market or in service on the commencement of these Regulations,

( b ) components and parts of products and of equipment necessary to supplement or replace components or parts of the said products and equipment.

(3) A person shall not on or after the 1st day of January, 1993, offer or supply for sale, rental or lease any weighing instruments, for retail use, other than instruments indicating only in metric units.

ohnonotgmail

Deleted User wrote: »

Nah, it's not. As made clear by the thread title, it's about whether retailers are acting within the law when they refuse to give the metric value of the product they are selling.



True, my question is now answered. Unfortunately, not correctly. In the meantime, I have been reliably informed elsewhere that all of these firms are, in fact, in breach of Irish law by refusing to state the price of their products in metric. Specifically, they are in breach of Section 7 of S.I. No. 255/1992 - European Communities (Units of Measurement) Regulations, 1992. GM228 above was correct so fair play to her/him for getting the law correct.

and yet i can still buy beer in pints in a pub. that single SI does not give the full picture.

ohnonotgmail

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

and yet i can still buy beer in pints in a pub. that single SI does not give the full picture.

Strangely enough, I wasn't looking for pints of flooring. It actually does; feel free to contact the relevant state authority with your questions (The 2008 amendment was only for pints.)

ohnonotgmail

and even in the example you provided of flooring in chadwicks the price displayed is per pack. and the size of the pack is in sq meters. You cant go in and ask for 5m2 of flooring. you can only buy packs. the price per square yard is only indicative. It is allowed under the SI you quoted to display a price in other than SI units in addition to the price in SI units. Frankly you havent a leg to stand on.

Claw Hammer

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

a Frankly you havent a leg to stand on.

Or a foot (30 CM approx).

On a similar vein, this estate agent has every single property in square foot alone - also no doubt to give the impression that the property is bigger than it is. It's long past time that the Oireachtas banned the dual measurement system as all rogue auctioneeers only use the larger-sounding imperial to sell their properties. This is in breach of Irish law, but no organisation seems to be enforcing it.

https://www.brmc.ie/

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120351268#Comment_120351268

Would anyone be fooled by using ft2?

Claw Hammer

By now most adults carry a smartphone all the time. It is simple to convert from one unit of measurement to another. There is a calculatror in every phone and access to conversion software if a person is too lazy to calculate the desired unit.

Homer

Also if you are the type of person that gets confused when purchasing a house over sq ft/sq m you have bigger problems to worry about I would imagine.

Dial Hard

Lads, this thread is 5 years old.

It's like Day of the Dead around here these days.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120362283#Comment_120362283

I would reply with something like "BRAAAAAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNSSSSSSSSSSSS" but it is probably expecting too much.

coylemj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120351268#Comment_120351268

If he is a 'rogue' auctioneer, I'd be more worried about him inflating the dimensions than whether he uses metric or imperial. All property descriptions carry a disclaimer as to the dimensions so you really can't trust any numbers quotes - sq. ft. or sq. m.

It's still common for auctioneers to quote floor area in both imperial and metric. Motor dealers seem to have universally adopted kms when quoting mileage but there's a lot of cars on donedeal still quoting miles.