Superman

Nervous Wreck

I'm currently watching Superman (1978) for the first time in about 5 years and it's got me thinking about a few things. Along with Lois & Clark, this the version of Superman I grew up with.

I think the best actor to play the part to date is Christopher Reeve, though when I think of Superman, my mind just defaults to Dean Cain. Full disclosure: cheesy as it was, I continue to love Lois & Clark: The New Adventures of Superman.

I also really liked Brandon Routh as Superman. The movie didn't do a lot and was fairly ill-conceived but he really felt like the boy scout to me. And while I don't rate the DCEU's version of the character as actually being Superman at all, I think Cavill would be a great Superman, given the chance.

In the animated world, Tim Daly is the only Superman voice for me. Also, I think Erica Durance was a fantastic Lois Lane on Smallville.


And while we're at it, my favourite Superman comics, in no particular order, are:

Superman Birthright by Mark Waid
Superman Red Son by Mark Millar
Superman Secret Identity by Kurt Busiek
Superman Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow? By Alan Moore
And the entire run of Superman Rebirth by Peter J. Tomasi so far...!



Anyone else like Superman?!

Agent Coulson

Reeves is Superman and I don't think anyone will ever top his version.

Dean Cain was a great Superman.
I love Lois & Clark Cain and Hatcher had great chemistry and I can't wait to see them reunited in Supergirl.


Routh I felt was hard done by as he did a fine job taking the mantle from Reeves as a cinematic Superman I'm not a big fan of Cavill I must say.


Daly along with Conroy and Hamill own those roles and deserve a lot more general credit for what they brought to the roles.


Comic wise I was never a huge fan of the Superman comics for some reason I just never I don't know got excited by them that maybe down to seeing the 78 movie first comics could never live up to seeing the live action Superman.

Nervous Wreck

Reeve*

I hear a lot of people say they don't like superman comics. Tbh, I mostly enjoy limited runs like a lot of the ones I've mentioned above but the current ongoing series is unreal. One of the best series around atm!

Agent Coulson

George Reeves


That's what happens when you leave out and ' Christopher becomes George

Doctor DooM

It's hard to disagree with anything you're saying

I reckon Cavill has an awesome Superman that hopefully some decent director will get out of him.

It's ok to tell a tale of a darker, "corrupted by the world" Superman- some of the most well known stories in DC's library like Dark Knight and Kingdom Come actually revolve around that- but he has to be a real genuine beacon of hope and a bright light in the dark for that to mean anything. I think Reeves, Caine and Daly especially made him feel like that.

Penn

Doctor DooM wrote: »

It's hard to disagree with anything you're saying

I reckon Cavill has an awesome Superman that hopefully some decent director will get out of him.

It's ok to tell a tale of a darker, "corrupted by the world" Superman- some of the most well known stories in DC's library like Dark Knight and Kingdom Come actually revolve around that- but he has to be a real genuine beacon of hope and a bright light in the dark for that to mean anything. I think Reeves, Caine and Daly especially made him feel like that.

Agreed. I read at the weekend that Zack Snyder says the reason Superman couldn't use his superhearing in BvS to find Martha was because he would have heard all the screams and horrors in the world and wouldn't have been able to focus on Martha's voice... thereby completely ignoring a) MoS where Martha literally teaches him how to focus his superhearing, and b) how he managed to fly from some mountain to catch Lois when Lex threw her off the helipad.

Snyder is simply someone who doesn't get Superman. He doesn't get the dichotomy between Superman and Clark. He doesn't get the importance of his relationships with people like Jimmy Olsen and Perry White as someone who is an alien constantly trying to learn what it is to be human. He doesn't get that to represent Superman and Batman as "Day Vs Night", you need Superman to be the Day. He's powered by the Sun. He is literally supposed to be a beacon of light. He's supposed to inspire hope. He's supposed to smile while saving people, not for himself but as reassurance to the people he's saving that they don't need to be afraid. And while comparisons to religious figures can be made, they also don't need to be shoved down people's throats (I'd almost put money on Supes being called a god more than he's called Superman in BvS).

Cavill can play that. I have no doubt about it. But Goyer and Snyder can't write/direct it, because they don't get it. Now they've wasted The Death of Superman (and one of Superman's strongest foes in Doomsday) in an already crowded movie that didn't need it, suffered because of it as it wasn't earned, and have now painted themselves into a corner by removing Clark Kent from the future of the DCEU.

Doctor DooM

Has Goyer ever gotten any comic book property? I would even say Blade was just the right place at the right time.

Penn

Doctor DooM wrote: »

Has Goyer ever gotten any comic book property? I would even say Blade was just the right place at the right time.

Well he's the same guy who thought they only created She-Hulk so Hulk had someone to f*ck and said you couldn't call the Martian Manhunter the Martian Manhunter because that's stupid and anyone who had even heard of the Martian Manhunter was a virgin.

Who better to write the biggest DC films?

Doctor DooM

Penn wrote: »

Well he's the same guy who thought they only created She-Hulk so Hulk had someone to f*ck and said you couldn't call the Martian Manhunter the Martian Manhunter because that's stupid and anyone who had even heard of the Martian Manhunter was a virgin.

Who better to write the biggest DC films?

Christ, he makes Thomas Rothman (the producer who thought Deadpool was a bad idea and ended up making Ryan Reynolds pay for some of it out of spite) sound like a charmer.

Penn

It's the biggest problem WB/DCEU has. The people (Snyder and Goyer) who have the most pull on the creative side seem to really love the dark and gritty stuff but aren't balancing it out with any light. That can absolutely work with some superheroes, but it doesn't work with all, and definitely not with Superman.

Doctor DooM

Penn wrote: »

It's the biggest problem WB/DCEU has. The people (Snyder and Goyer) who have the most pull on the creative side seem to really love the dark and gritty stuff but aren't balancing it out with any light. That can absolutely work with some superheroes, but it doesn't work with all, and definitely not with Superman.

Absolutely. Superman requires a deft hand. They're not the guys for it.

It's not like they don't have other Superman films to look at and learn how it's done

Ben Gadot

Doctor DooM wrote: »

It's hard to disagree with anything you're saying

I reckon Cavill has an awesome Superman that hopefully some decent director will get out of him.

It's ok to tell a tale of a darker, "corrupted by the world" Superman- some of the most well known stories in DC's library like Dark Knight and Kingdom Come actually revolve around that- but he has to be a real genuine beacon of hope and a bright light in the dark for that to mean anything. I think Reeves, Caine and Daly especially made him feel like that.

I liked Superman growing up but I was always a Batman head.

But as I've gotten older I've come to appreciate Superman more, to the point I can't even read a GN like TDKR without thinking "this isn't right the way he's been written/used."

I couldn't claim to have an encyclopaedic knowledge of the character but from what I've seen, the Superman I've seen in the animated movies Doomsday and Unbound is how I like him to be written: strong of mind and savvy (not a chump) but when it comes right down to it, an unbelievably good bloke who gives more than he gets and doesn't cry about it. It is who he is, simple as that.

Some of the world's finest/jl animated movies also capture the relationship between Bats and Clark quite beautifully too. Even when Bruce has been a major dick, while Supes will be the first to call him on it, he'll also be the first to defend him and above all else be his friend.

It actually depresses me the more I write given the way things are right now.

Nervous Wreck

^^Its actually bananas how many iterations of Superman there have been across comics, tv, film, animation etc. and they were pretty much all great until Zach Snyder came along...

Sad Professor

The Donner film had a huge influence on me as a kid. To me that particularly vision of the character is embodied in the totally sincere way Reeve says the line "I'm here to fight for truth, and justice, and the American way." More than the muscles or the powers, that's what Superman. Someone who is inherently good.

I actually think both Nolan and Goyer get this. The premise for MoS was not dark and gritty Superman, it was how Clark became the guy who appears fully formed in the Donner film at the age of 30. But Snyder has his own take on superheroes as selfish Greek gods. As much as I abhor it, I also find it kind of fascinating and strangely befitting the times we are living in.

Doctor DooM

Sad Professor wrote: »

The Donner film had a huge influence on me as a kid. To me that particularly vision of the character is embodied in the totally sincere way Reeve says the line "I'm here to fight for truth, and justice, and the American way." More than the muscles or the powers, that's what Superman. Someone who is inherently good.

I actually think both Nolan and Goyer get this. The premise for MoS was not dark and gritty Superman, it was how Clark became the guy who appears fully formed in the Donner film at the age of 30. But Snyder has his own take on superheroes as selfish Greek gods. As much as I abhor it, I also find it kind of fascinating and strangely befitting the times we are living in.

I agree with most of what you say, however Goyer has never cared to "get" anything in comics. He just tells whatever stories he wants to with character names hung on them.

ursa actos

While the Synder films have their flaws, one of the criticisms of MoS that has irked me was all the complaining about Superman killing Zod. What did people think happened to Zod, Non & Ursa (no relation) in Superman II. Superman crushes his hand, throws him down an icy crevasse, while Non flies like a brick and Lois casually kills Ursa . Whatever about this being different to Superman's ethos in other depictions, it was at least in line with the previous movies*

*huh, just found out that the more recent Superman II - Richard Donner cut (2006) apparently has a different ending where Superman reverses the earths orbit/time [cringe] again and the Kryptonians are returned to the Phantom Zone

Sad Professor

ursa actos wrote: »

While the Synder films have their flaws, one of the criticisms of MoS that has irked me was all the complaining about Superman killing Zod. What did people think happened to Zod, Non & Ursa (no relation) in Superman II. Superman crushes his hand, throws him down an icy crevasse, while Non flies like a brick and Lois casually kills Ursa . Whatever about this being different to Superman's ethos in other depictions, it was at least in line with the previous movies*

*huh, just found out that the more recent Superman II - Richard Donner cut (2006) apparently has a different ending where Superman reverses the earths orbit/time [cringe] again and the Kryptonians are returned to the Phantom Zone

I'm not sure we can say for certain that they died in the theatrical cut. Their faith is ambiguous because Lester didn't care enough to resolve it. As originally scripted and in Donner's partially filmed version they were arrested and taken away by police after losing their powers.

And re: the Donner cut, had he finished the film, the turning back time sequence wouldn't have happened again in Superman II. They moved that sequence into the first film during production to make the ending more emotional.

Nervous Wreck

Also, Superman doesn't reverse the rotation of the earth; this was meant to be a visual representation of hI'm flying backward through time. Donner never intended for it to seem like he was reversing the earth's orbit, it was just a visual cue that kinda didn't work.

Doctor DooM

Nervous Wreck wrote: »

Also, Superman doesn't reverse the rotation of the earth; this was meant to be a visual representation of hI'm flying backward through time. Donner never intended for it to seem like he was reversing the earth's orbit, it was just a visual cue that kinda didn't work.

One of the most interesting "never came to pass" things about the Donner cut was in Superman 2/3 there was supposed to be repercussions for the time travel. You can hear Jor-El warning him as he was doing it. We never go to see what they were.

On the topic of Superman killing: I think most people who know Superman from the comics know that, in fact, he will kill if there is absolutely no choice, but the character of Supes is so messed up in modern films you don't really get the tragedy of such a good man being forced to do bad things that you should.

IncognitoMan

Just reading through Max Landis's American Alien. I've just finished the 3rd issue and I'm really enjoying it.

Anyone else read the full series? How did you find it?

the baby bull elephant

IncognitoMan wrote: »

Just reading through Max Landis's American Alien. I've just finished the 3rd issue and I'm really enjoying it.

Anyone else read the full series? How did you find it?

Remember finding it very enjoyable and a nice take on his formative years. I might go back and read them in closer proximity to each other. They were very spaced out when I first read them.

Nervous Wreck

I thought American Alien was great up until the last 2 issues, which just kinda fell apart. I really liked the premise of the series but just wished there'd been a bit more Superman being super, I guess. I might revisit at some point though, cos I can only really remember the boat issue at this point.

Mr.Nice Guy

Christopher Reeve will always be the definitive Superman in my eyes. I loved the way he captured the goodness of the character. I think a lot of people forget that about Superman in this day and age. Nowadays it's all about being 'edgy', let's focus on characters' dark aspects, let's have Superman kill villains etc. But Superman is just a good guy. That's it. And that's fine. He doesn't need to be Batman, or Wolverine, and take out his frustrations on the bad guys. I like those characters too don't get me wrong, but there's something refreshing about a character that stands above that. This is the Superman of Christopher Reeve. (Well except in the third film when he turned bad but he turned back so it's all good. :pac:)

Another thing I think that gets overlooked about Christopher Reeve - he totally nailed the Clark Kent character. I don't think any of the other actors have played Clark as well as Reeve did. That bumbling, clumsy portrayal was such a great contrast to the superhuman alter ego.

RobbingBandit

I like the injustice arc, take away his humanity and he becomes an all powerful unwavering god almost what we see in Batman vs Superman when Martha was kidnapped by Lex but throw in the Lois death at his own hands and no possible redemption and it paves the way for all out war, as The Flash said Lois is the key, if they delve into the injustice arcs the films could take an excellent turn.

the baby bull elephant

RobbingBandit wrote: »

I like the injustice arc, take away his humanity and he becomes an all powerful unwavering god almost what we see in Batman vs Superman when Martha was kidnapped by Lex but throw in the Lois death at his own hands and no possible redemption and it paves the way for all out war, as The Flash said Lois is the key, if they delve into the injustice arcs the films could take an excellent turn.

I really like Injustice and it has my favourite depiction of Harley Quinn, along with some really great moments, especially in year 1-3 but that's not Superman and could never be main continuity Superman (also for all it does good that version of Wonder Woman is just terrible). For some people it's so out of character it ruins the whole series for them. I don't go by that, it's an elseworlds which is basically enough for me. The question it answers isn't just what if Superman snapped but what if he actually could snap.

I really hope they wouldn't do that in the movies unless maybe it was like the first game where main continuity Superman is the good one who goes over and takes down the InjusticeSupes. Though that would essentially be a retelling. Still something decent could be merged from Injustice and the Justice Lords. There are many other avenues I'd like them to explore first.

RobbingBandit

Injustice Superman is a victim of circumstances, his own actions create him, he differs from Ultraman and Red Son Superman in that they are changed by either landing on Lionel Luthers doorstep or a farm in Ukraine, Injustice Superman attacks without assessing the situation first and his actions cause him to lose his humanity, the Justice lords had no flash which to me meant no comic relief. Sorry for off topic spin, trying not to put too much spoilers here.

AllForIt

I'm not so much a superhero fan than a great movie fan. Superman for me is all about Donors movies - Superman and Superman II. I care nothing for any other reincarnation of the franchise, either the comics, the animated series, or the latest movies, or the TV series. I though Superman Returns wasn't too bad with Brandon Roth as It tried to be somewhat similar to Donors movies, where it copied the opening sequence and the score and the general look and feel of the originals. I think what was missing in that movie was a good script but there were moments in it I liked.

I don't know how many times I've watched both of those movies but it's a lot, I never get tired of either of them, and increased when the movies were re-mastered to HD and got my first large screen TV.

Things I love about the movie - the opening credits and the amazing score by John Williams - it never ever gets old. The big name stars, Gene Hackman, Marlon Brando, Terrence Stamp, Glen Ford. The wonderful cinematograpy as seen when Clark lived in a rural area as youngster. The complete change of feel of the movie when it went to comedy as Clark began working for the newspaper.

In Superman II the comedy wasn't so pronounced but still kept, as for example when Lex Luthor asked for "Australia" as a reward for assisting Zod.

The battle between superman and the 3 villains in the Metropolis was and still is class, despite no cgi. Especially the part where the villains 'blow away' the civilians on the street who attempt by sheer weight of numbers to attack them for supposedly killing Superman.

And of course Supermans home, made out of crystals - that must have taken some putting together in pinewood studios.

I though the latest movie with Henry Cavill wasn't worth watching. Henry has taken far to much steroids and he wasn't a likable superman at all in the way Reeve's or even Roth was.

Doctor DooM

The IJ world does some great things (the full face turn for Harley is done very well) but the Superman stuff is basically just Kingdom Come so doesn't really do anything for me.

MrJones1973

Nervous Wreck wrote: »

I'm currently watching Superman (1978) for the first time in about 5 years and it's got me thinking about a few things. Along with Lois & Clark, this the version of Superman I grew up with.

I think the best actor to play the part to date is Christopher Reeve, though when I think of Superman, my mind just defaults to Dean Cain. Full disclosure: cheesy as it was, I continue to love Lois & Clark: The New Adventures of Superman.

I also really liked Brandon Routh as Superman. The movie didn't do a lot and was fairly ill-conceived but he really felt like the boy scout to me. And while I don't rate the DCEU's version of the character as actually being Superman at all, I think Cavill would be a great Superman, given the chance.

In the animated world, Tim Daly is the only Superman voice for me. Also, I think Erica Durance was a fantastic Lois Lane on Smallville.


And while we're at it, my favourite Superman comics, in no particular order, are:

Superman Birthright by Mark Waid
Superman Red Son by Mark Millar
Superman Secret Identity by Kurt Busiek
Superman Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow? By Alan Moore
And the entire run of Superman Rebirth by Peter J. Tomasi so far...!



Anyone else like Superman?!

I was a big Superman fan in my youth. I think Reeves nailed it. The first two films with him were quite good. Third and fourth drivel.
Henry cavill did a good job and I loved the first film but I thought Batman vs Superman a bad idea as I do all these super hero ensemble pieces
I stopped reading conics a long time ago but I did watch most of the dean cain series. I think he was quite good in the role and followed the Reeves model of humble super hero. He also had a great supporting cast. His Perry white was brilliant and added a humourous tone which alot of super hero franchises lack.
I didn't take to Smallville as it just seemed like Dawson Creek with superheroes at times and rewrote the basic story
I actually would love a decent Superman novel but bar miracle Monday I haven't come across one. Not a graphic novel but a real novel

Nervous Wreck

Doctor DooM wrote: »

The IJ world does some great things (the full face turn for Harley is done very well) but the Superman stuff is basically just Kingdom Come so doesn't really do anything for me.

Interested to know if you don't like Kingdom Come or just aren't interested in a retread of the character arc in a different story?

I haven't read Injustice. I'm not sure I'm interested in reading an ongoing series that depicts Superman in that way so I never bothered. Great idea for a limited but couldn't read an ongoing like that.

Penn

RobbingBandit wrote: »

I like the injustice arc, take away his humanity and he becomes an all powerful unwavering god almost what we see in Batman vs Superman when Martha was kidnapped by Lex but throw in the Lois death at his own hands and no possible redemption and it paves the way for all out war, as The Flash said Lois is the key, if they delve into the injustice arcs the films could take an excellent turn.

The trouble is with the Injustice game/comics, we have the years and years of familiarity with the characters that seeing them in a different way is brilliant. Seeing how powerful heroes can become tyrants.

However, that kind of story is earned through knowing what the characters are normally like and it being a different version to existing characters we already have, rather than being in main continuity.

The films need to build up to that, but it's going to take several years. They need to show us the good so that the bad has actual impact. It's one of the main flaws of BvS, it did the Death of Superman, hinted at Death in the Family, and the Dark Knight Returns all in one film. But it didn't earn any of it.

They didn't show how revered Superman is as a hero and why his death would affect so many. Instead, they showed nothing but arguments about whether or not he is a hero, mostly over shots of him actually saving people.

They didn't show Batman and Robin, and what happened to him which caused Batman to essentially give up and cross a line that only Superman's sacrifice could bring him back from.

They didn't show Batman & Superman being friends or allies, which meant their fight didn't have the emotional weight behind it like in TDKR. There was no history between them, no Batman knowing everything Superman could do and having a plan to counter it due to their history. No Superman holding back because of their history.

We can figure out things like what happened to Robin and work out character motivations ourselves, but the impact these important and iconic stories could have had was hugely diminished by just lumping them all in together in a) Superman's 2nd film, b) Batman's first film and c) a film loaded with other side stories such as setting up the Justice League and whatever the hell Lois' story was. Same with Injustice. Seeing Superman and some of the others go bad hasn't been earned because we've barely seen them be good. In the Injustice series, they were already heroes for a number of years before the events of the comics. We would need to see them be heroes for several films so that if they did do an Injustice story, they could do it... justice...

Doctor DooM

Nervous Wreck wrote: »

Interested to know if you don't like Kingdom Come or just aren't interested in a retread of the character arc in a different story?

I haven't read Injustice. I'm not sure I'm interested in reading an ongoing series that depicts Superman in that way so I never bothered. Great idea for a limited but couldn't read an ongoing like that.

I think Kingdom Come is great, just IJ is very close to it, almost like watching a Kingdom Come animation (although there's a...meanness to the Regime that is not there in Ross' loving tribute to the golden age).

Where the IJ comics really win is the supporting characters, Harley, Green arrow etc. I think much like Miller on Daredevil it was one of these times no one was expecting anything good of them so a talent got to do what he really wanted and shone.

Nervous Wreck

Interesting, thanks! I think you've confirmed what I already suspected; Injustice isn't for me.

Doctor DooM

Nervous Wreck wrote: »

Interesting, thanks! I think you've confirmed what I already suspected; Injustice isn't for me.

Well, there might be one reason you might enjoy it: There's a confrontation from the main universe Supes-who is not happy- and the IJ universe (who is truly unlikeable) and it pretty much ends the way it should

I am getting very tired of media deconstructing him though. You need to build something before deconstructing makes sense.

Nervous Wreck

Doctor DooM wrote: »

Well, there might be one reason you might enjoy it: There's a confrontation from the main universe Supes-who is not happy- and the IJ universe (who is truly unlikeable) and it pretty much ends the way it should

I am getting very tired of media deconstructing him though. You need to build something before deconstructing makes sense.

Ooh now that's cool!

I agree. Some of my main problems with the DCEU stem from exactly that.