Poll: Time to proscribe the RC Church?

Zebra3

Given the vast multitudes of crimes committed by the Roman Catholic Church in this country, is it time to declare it a proscribed organisation?

Mountainsandh

No.
Just let it self-sabotage.
Prosecute when possible.
Sever links between Church and State somehow, rid schools of its power, somehow.
I don't think it it would be right to ban a religion. IMHO.

hatrickpatrick

Martyrdom and being banned only ever helps a movement to thrive. Nothing motivates people like a persecution complex.

Jim Bob Scratcher

Lets try and get rid of Islam first

topmanamillion

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Martyrdom and being banned only ever helps a movement to thrive. Nothing motivates people like a persecution complex.

Exactly.
The RCC is doing a fine job of morally proscribing itself.
Anyone that's contributing financially to the catholic church really needs to have a good look at themselves.

MilesMorales1

Give em enough rope and they'll hang themselves.

greenflash

topmanamillion wrote: »

Exactly.
The RCC is doing a fine job of morally proscribing itself.
Anyone that's contributing financially to the catholic church really needs to have a good look at themselves.

Out of pretty much everyone I know, my wife and I are the only parents not to have had our children baptised. I hardly know anyone who has faith and attends mass yet still they all go through the christening/communion/confirmation rituals. Why? Because it's tradition and it's a nice day out and no one wants to upset the older generation and how else could the RCC continue to justify its control of the education of the vast majority of Irish children.

Because we ****ing let them, that's ****ing why.

johnnyskeleton

greenflash wrote: »

Out of pretty much everyone I know, my wife and I are the only parents not to have had our children baptised. I hardly know anyone who has faith and attends mass yet still they all go through the christening/communion/confirmation rituals. Why? Because it's tradition and it's a nice day out and no one wants to upset the older generation and how else could the RCC continue to justify its control of the education of the vast majority of Irish children.

Because we ****ing let them, that's ****ing why.

Well one theory goes that if you send the kids to a denominational school and send them to mass/church etc and they hear about all the religious stuff, they can assess it for themselves and ultimate decide whether to opt in or opt out when they mature. At that point, they have learned skepticism and not to accept things at face value, or else they do accept it because they've considered the alternatives and found them unconvincting.

Whereas if you raise a child without any exposure to religion, it will only prime them to fall prey to the first cult that comes along promising them the secrets of the universe and entry to eternal paradise.

So while I don't believe in all the stuff, I can see how it plays an important part in society and in human development.

uch

I've no idea what the OP means by proscribe

uch

Oh, and I like Cake

greenflash

uch wrote: »

I've no idea what the OP means by proscribe

Outlaw, ban, make illegal.

red ears

The catholic church is no threat anymore, Islam is where the real threat is.

One eyed Jack

Zebra3 wrote: »

Given the vast multitudes of crimes committed by the Roman Catholic Church in this country, is it time to declare it a proscribed organisation?

The Roman Catholic Church didn't commit any crimes.

People committed crimes in the name of the RCC. The vast majority of people within the Roman Catholic Church have/had nothing to do with any criminal activity so do not deserve any condemnation.

Yourself isit

It would be odd to ban just one religion. All or none.

Atoms for Peace

It has been already tried here and didn't work.

Dave_The_Sheep

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Prosecute when possible.

We tried that. Ouor own governemnt indemnified them for up to a ridiculous figure so they'd never have to pay back a) victims and b) the state for the damege they caused.

If you can't rely on the state to enact your justice, then you understand why sometimes people go vigilante.

On a high level, I'm sure the RCC can afford the best laywers around.

Yourself isit

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

We tried that. Ouor own governemnt indemnified them for up to a ridiculous figure so they'd never have to pay back a) victims and b) the state for the damege they caused.

If you can't rely on the state to enact your justice, then you understand why sometimes people go vigilante.

On a high level, I'm sure the RCC can afford the best laywers around.

Has anybody actually "gone vigilante"? What does that mean?

Dave_The_Sheep

Not yet that I'm aware of.

I would assume it means taking justice into ones own hands. It usually means that.

4068ac1elhodqr

A financial stripping of their core assets to pay for the numerous international victims would be a very good start, there is no need for a priest to be driving a fancy new Mercedes and living in an near empty 20-bed parochial house.

They should also all undergo 'scientific lie detection tests' on various probing questions to see if their intentions are what they appear to be.

The new pope chap seems decent enough compared to the last one, and refused the Prada sandals, that last fella looked real sketchy.

Worth noting also that 'Islam may well become the world's largest religion come 2070', and no organised 'thought police' gang are free from wrongdoing, that includes Scientology or whom-ever else. Perhaps they all need regular scrutiny by independent bodies on human rights.

Ursus Horribilis

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Whereas if you raise a child without any exposure to religion, it will only prime them to fall prey to the first cult that comes along promising them the secrets of the universe and entry to eternal paradise.
.

Or you could argue that forbidden fruit is the sweetest. What better way to piss off radical atheist mum and dad than to find God

From what I can see, the vast majority of Irish people either ditch their catholic faith or disobey most of the rule once they get to a certain age. Otherwise the churches would be bursting at the seams on Sundays, rather than being populated by people over 65. I'm not sure how many people pay any heed to what priests or bishops say nowadays. It's apathy that'll kill the church in Ireland, not angry people venting on internet message boards.

Mountainsandh

greenflash wrote: »

Out of pretty much everyone I know, my wife and I are the only parents not to have had our children baptised. I hardly know anyone who has faith and attends mass yet still they all go through the christening/communion/confirmation rituals. Why? Because it's tradition and it's a nice day out and no one wants to upset the older generation and how else could the RCC continue to justify its control of the education of the vast majority of Irish children.

Because we ****ing let them, that's ****ing why.

Slowly does it.
My kids are 9 and 11. We baptised them not to upset the relations, and because there's only one school available in the area, no non-denominational within 70 km.

Not wanting to upset the relations : that's slowly but surely becoming redundant, as generations age. Also, since then, I have seen change in my kids' Granny for example. She voted Yes to gay marriage, she is still practicing but has become disillusioned with the Church.
There will come a stage where this will not be an issue.

I'd say most people could do without the "nice day out" in the current conditions.

Finally, and hopefully, as non-denominational schools multiply, the issue of RCC only schools in one area will be no more.

Pity it didn't apply for my kids. It's a farce alright, and we have taken part.
At least I didn't put any of us down as Catholics on the census.

It won't take too much longer imo. Even this evening, at a community meeting, I learned that some people I believed were regular (social) mass goers have stopped going altogether.

Subcomandante Marcos

Should the church be banned?

No.

Should the church be punished?

Yes.

As a form of making them pay back the people of Ireland for the costs to the state for paying victims of abuse and for covering up stuff like this, moving child rapists from parish to parish etc, take their lands from them.

Not all their lands, let them keep the church and the carpark around it and all that, but take the schools, the hospitals, the universities and colleges and so on and transfer them to the ownership of the relevant government departments, get rid of this nonsense of the local parish priest being the head of schools boards of management, remove the baptism barrier once and for all.

Mountainsandh

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

Should the church be banned?

No.

Should the church be punished?

Yes.

As a form of making them pay back the people of Ireland for the costs to the state for paying victims of abuse and for covering up stuff like this, moving child rapists from parish to parish etc, take their lands from them.

Not all their lands, let them keep the church and the carpark around it and all that, but take the schools, the hospitals, the universities and colleges and so on and transfer them to the ownership of the relevant government departments, get rid of this nonsense of the local parish priest being the head of schools boards of management, remove the baptism barrier once and for all.

I don't see that happening, but it would be great.

Atlantic Dawn

The politicians allowed this to go on and you only have to look at recent history where pure fookwit Michael Woods let the church pretty much fully off the hook for compensation claims, he must be expecting a corrupt **** of a wanker God to let him through the pearly gates for his favour.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Never had a personal issue with the RCC. They were there for me when I lost family members and friends. I'll always remember our Parish Priest travelling up to Dublin to the hospital from the midlands a few hours after my granny died. He was there for us. She had already received the Last Rites from the hospital chaplain but he insisted on coming up to bless her and to be there for the family.

A great friend of mine committed suicide in 2013. I sat by his coffin at the wake with another Priest from the Parish, I wasn't anyway religious at the time. He explained to me the concept of "Hate the Sin, not the Sinner." God Almighty will judge will and not man.

I can understand people who have had negative experiences but I can only go on my own experiences. I'm proud to be a member of the Catholic Church. They did more good than they ever did bad in this country.

greenflash

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Slowly does it.
My kids are 9 and 11. We baptised them not to upset the relations, and because there's only one school available in the area, no non-denominational within 70 km...

It won't take too much longer imo. Even this evening, at a community meeting, I learned that some people I believed were regular (social) mass goers have stopped going altogether.

It'll take a lot longer than it should while children are still being registered as Catholics for those reasons. If you're in an area where the only school for 70 Km has religious patronage, your children are still entitled to an education at that school regardless of baptism. It only really applies to areas (mainly in Dublin) where places in desirable schools are oversubscribed and school boards are in a position to make selections and discriminate by religion.

DEFTLEFTHAND

The vast majority of these clergy members are good men. They give up their lives to preach the word of the Lord.

Kind and gentle highly educated men. If they can something there, then I can too.

topmanamillion

red ears wrote: »

The catholic church is no threat anymore, Islam is where the real threat is.

If you believe that, I have some swamp land to sell to you.

twill

Zebra3 wrote: »

Given the vast multitudes of crimes committed by the Roman Catholic Church in this country, is it time to declare it a proscribed organisation?

Assuming you refer to the abuse of women and children, do we also proscribe the Protestant denominations given what happened in the Bethany Home and other such noble institutions? Just out of curiosity.

topmanamillion

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The Roman Catholic Church didn't commit any crimes.

People committed crimes in the name of the RCC. The vast majority of people within the Roman Catholic Church have/had nothing to do with any criminal activity so do not deserve any condemnation.

Have you been to Vatican city? Have you seen the opulence on display? An organisation that prattles on about people not putting wealth and worldly goods before god surrounds its self in untold grandeur.
Its sceptic and anyone that supports is sceptic by proxy.

Mountainsandh

greenflash wrote: »

It'll take a lot longer than it should while children are still being registered as Catholics for those reasons

.

Social change takes time.

If you're in an area where the only school for 70 Km has religious patronage, your children are still entitled to an education at that school regardless of baptism. It only really applies to areas (mainly in Dublin) where places in desirable schools are oversubscribed and school boards are in a position to make selections and discriminate by religion.

It's good that you're telling me that, I didn't know. 11 years ago, or even 8/9 years ago since we didn't have to book a place or anything (tiny rural school), I would never have known that (I'm not Irish, but my husband didn't either).

People don't necessarily know these things. The given is that, in a religious ethos RC school, your child must be baptised. Of course now, with a lot more refugees for example, it's a bit more in the open.

Information campaigns would probably help speed up things.

hinault

topmanamillion wrote: »

Have you been to Vatican city? Have you seen the opulence on display? An organisation that prattles on about people not putting wealth and worldly goods before god surrounds its self in untold grandeur.
Its sceptic and anyone that supports is sceptic by proxy.

Most of the stuff in the Vatican has been bequeathed to the Vatican by donors.

Most of the property it has here in Ireland has been bequeathed by donors.

You're opposed to people bequeathing possessions to whomever they chose. Why?

topmanamillion

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Never had a personal issue with the RCC. They were there for me when I lost family members and friends. I'll always remember our Parish Priest travelling up to Dublin to the hospital from the midlands a few hours after my granny died. He was there for us. She had already received the Last Rites from the hospital chaplain but he insisted on coming up to bless her and to be there for the family.

A great friend of mine committed suicide in 2013. I sat by his coffin at the wake with another Priest from the Parish, I wasn't anyway religious at the time. He explained to me the concept of "Hate the Sin, not the Sinner." God Almighty will judge will and not man.

I can understand people who have had negative experiences but I can only go on my own experiences. I'm proud to be a member of the Catholic Church. They did more good than they ever did bad in this country.

I watched a documentary about Harold Shipman where relatives of his victims still felt he was a good doctor and were puzzled by their own ability to compartmentalise the monster and the good doctor.
You seem to have done something similar with the RCC.

I think this phenomenon is probably akin to a form of Stockholm syndrome.

hinault

topmanamillion wrote: »

I watched a documentary about Harold Shipman where relatives of his victims still felt he was a good doctor and were puzzled by their own ability to compartmentalise the monster and the good doctor.
You seem to have done something similar with the RCC.

I think this phenomenon is probably akin to a form of Stockholm syndrome.

What damage did RCC do to DEFTLEFTHAND's relatives?

topmanamillion

hinault wrote: »

What damage did RCC do to DEFTLEFTHAND's relatives?

I think you`ve misunderstood my point. I was merely making an observation that people can compartmentalize the actions of others.
DEFTLEFTHAND is willing to ignore the rape of children and the subsequent cover up by RCC clergy, mass graves, along with all the other abuses because he/she had a positive experience with them. And also follow it up with the frankly disturbing statement:
"I'm proud to be a member of the Catholic Church. They did more good than they ever did bad in this country."

This struck me as similar to the relatives of Harold shipman's positive thoughts on his abilities as a doctor and hence the comparison.

DEFTLEFTHAND

topmanamillion wrote: »

I watched a documentary about Harold Shipman where relatives of his victims still felt he was a good doctor and were puzzled by their own ability to compartmentalise the monster and the good doctor.
You seem to have done something similar with the RCC.

I think this phenomenon is probably akin to a form of Stockholm syndrome.

Or maybe you just believe every bad thing you hear about.

Did they not assist in the educational and Health Services when this new State didn't have a bob?

Do they not still provide crucial aid money in the third world. You see it's very east to criticise these people without fully understanding the work they undertake across the globe. All of this work of course goes unacknowledged. These people are Christians, not narcissists.

I was just like you in 2013, I followed the college narrative and wrote them off as paedo enablers, without ever attempting to understand or acknowledge some of the great things they have done and continue to do.

We can sit back in our chairs in 2017 and pontificate about social issues such as poverty and homelessness, they go out there and they do something about it.

hinault

topmanamillion wrote: »

I think you`ve misunderstood my point. I was merely making an observation that people can compartmentalize the actions of others.
DEFTLEFTHAND is willing to ignore the rape of children and the subsequent cover up by RCC clergy, mass grave, along with all the other abuses because he/she had a positive experience with them.
This struck me as similar to the relatives of Harold shipman's thoughts on him and hence the comparison.

Rational people form their views about an organisation based on their direct experience, or lack thereof, of that same organisation.

DEFTLEFTHAND's experience has been positive, hence his/her view.

topmanamillion

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Or maybe you just believe every bad thing you hear about.

Did they not assist in the educational and Health Services when this new State didn't have a bob?

Do they not still provide crucial aid money in the third world. You see it's very east to criticise these people without fully understanding the work they undertake across the globe. All of this work of course goes unacknowledged. These people are Christians, not narcissists.

I was just like you in 2013, I followed the college narrative and wrote them off as paedo enablers, without ever attempting to understand or acknowledge some of the great things they have done and continue to do.

We can sit back in our chairs in 2017 and pontificate about social issues such as poverty and homelessness, they go out there and they do something about it.

I'm all to aware of their interventions in impoverished countries:

"Catholic dogmas are killing people in Africa"
http://www.salon.com/2015/11/30/catholic_dogmas_are_killing_people_in_africa/

"Pope's anti-condom message is sabotage in fight against Aids"
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/sep/11/bad-science-pope-anti-condom

Pope Francis was right about condoms and HIV
(a thoroughly chilling and ill informed propaganda article from the RCC`s
resident propaganda newspaper)
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/the-pope-was-right-about-condoms-and-hiv-49253/

hinault

topmanamillion wrote: »

I'm all to aware of their interventions in impoverished countries:

But you're not aware of all of their interventions in impoverished countries, are you?

Your Face

My Friday night was fun.

Absolam

No, but I'd like to see people who commit crimes prosecuted. That would seem a more sensible course.

topmanamillion

hinault wrote: »

But you're not aware of all of their interventions in impoverished countries, are you?

Listen, if you can ignore systematic child buggery, mass child graves, condoning domestic violence, along with all the other abuses because a few Trocaire boxes were sent to Africa in order to expand catholic influence under the guise of charity then that's your issue.
I simply cant do that.

Zebra3

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Never had a personal issue with the RCC. They were there for me when I lost family members and friends. I'll always remember our Parish Priest travelling up to Dublin to the hospital from the midlands a few hours after my granny died. He was there for us. She had already received the Last Rites from the hospital chaplain but he insisted on coming up to bless her and to be there for the family.

A great friend of mine committed suicide in 2013. I sat by his coffin at the wake with another Priest from the Parish, I wasn't anyway religious at the time. He explained to me the concept of "Hate the Sin, not the Sinner." God Almighty will judge will and not man.

I can understand people who have had negative experiences but I can only go on my own experiences. I'm proud to be a member of the Catholic Church. They did more good than they ever did bad in this country.

That'll be great consolation to all their rape and torture victims. :rolleyes: "I'm all right Jack".

twill wrote: »

Assuming you refer to the abuse of women and children, do we also proscribe the Protestant denominations given what happened in the Bethany Home and other such noble institutions? Just out of curiosity.

I'd have no issue with any other organisation being banned that has been involved in terrorism similar to the RC Church.

One eyed Jack

Zebra3 wrote: »

That'll be great consolation to all their rape and torture victims. :rolleyes: "I'm all right Jack".

Genuine question - what do you think proscription of the RCC would do for these people?

And have you considered the number of people who have experienced rape and torture who have sought solace in the RCC?

Circumstances aren't nearly as black and white as you might need them to be.

Bigus

uch wrote: »

I've no idea what the OP means by proscribe

That would be an ecumenical matter.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Nobody here knows why so many perverts winded up in the Irish Catholic Church.

You would wonder at times what kind of island this was. From studying clerical abuse cases from Ireland, to Australia, to Boston, and south America.

There's one worrying link to all these cases. All the perps seem to be either Irish or of Irish extraction

Why did these sexual deviants wind up in the church. They might have looked upon it as a career option, preying on the general naivety of the Church. The Church expect men to live their lives to the standard of Jesus Christ.

Their weakness is that they fail to see the bad in people.

whisky_galore

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Nobody here knows why so many perverts winded up in the Irish Catholic Church.

You would wonder at times what kind of island this was. From studying clerical abuse cases from Ireland, to Australia, to Boston, and south America.

There's one worrying link to all these cases. All the perps seem to be either Irish or of Irish extraction

Why did these sexual deviants wind up in the church. They might have looked upon it as a career option, preying on the general naivety of the Church. The Church expect men to live their lives to the standard of Jesus Christ.

Their weakness is that they fail to see the bad in people.

The RCC doesn't have a monopoly on this. Just take any organisation where undue deference is shown, but the church being a worldwide organisation had so much more scope to create, hide or move around wrong doers than say swimming clubs or the BBC.

In the past, young men were pretty much forced into the church just to have a "prIest in the family" a sign of respectability...that must form at least part of the root of the problem, that custom.

I see the church being in terminal decline here. I will give it 15 years and many churches will have locked their doors as the older generation dies off. They won't be able to get priests so I assume whatever parishes are still active will either have to import them or use lay people.

Not sure if it's possible to proscribe or take the church for everything it's got to compensate victims. They've already been granted an amnesty and theres no votes in it...the older generation being the group who actually go to the bother of voting.

People talk about the Church as if it was external. The Church was us, we gave it the power and deference. It wasn't some invading force that imposed its will, we embraced it. We fought hard for it through the days of penal laws and when we could express ourselves following Catholic Emancipation, we built churches at a rate of knots. The problem was when it became too powerful to have law applied, it became a haven for abusers, it turned a blind eye to the appalling wrongs. It is right and proper that it be subjected to law and scrutiny and sanctioned for any wrongdoing. But talk of proscription is the stuff of the 1600s.

DEFTLEFTHAND

You'd be surprised at how many younger adults still attend Mass and get involved in their Parish.

I'm 28 and plenty of my fellow members who are active are younger or around the same age. We'll be here for a while yet. I will fight for the Catholic Church till the end.

DEFTLEFTHAND

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

You'd be surprised at how many younger adults still attend Mass and get involved in their Parish.

I'm 28 and plenty of my fellow members who are active are younger or around the same age. We'll be here for a while yet. I will fight for the Catholic Church till the end.

I've kinda returned to the Church, in a sense. No, I didn't find God, but since I had a daughter I like bringing her to Mass the odd time, and my mum likes it. It's nice and peaceful and she has to learn to sit down and not have her own way for a while...the kid, not my mum. Plus the Sundays are now mostly hangover free. Though long sermons make us all squirm.

DEFTLEFTHAND

And listen if you want to get really deep about the shiftiing demographics in western Europe you will get behind our Judeo Christian culture which forged all of your western values. The source

If you don't stand up for this, then maybe future generations will be adherent to something else. Another Abrahamic culture.

To quote Larry Dunne when he was sent down for 10 years.

"If you think we were bad, you'd want to see what's coming next"