Some new legislation or a scam for oil burners?

scaulfield18

Hi everyone,

First post. I did a quick search of the forum and google, but nothing relevant appeared. If this has been addressed before, apologies and can you please direct me to the relevant thread.

Anyway, here goes - my Firebird 90 oil burner wasn't working recently, despite a relatively recent repair 18 months ago. Today the same repair man who did the prior repair came around and got it working again. I parted with €136 for this. It took him all of five minutes. He replaced nothing and didn't clean anything or do anything much as far as I could see.

This is the story I was fed below to justify the cost.

Can someone tell me if there is truth to this, because it feels like a money making racket?

He said there was nothing wrong with the oil burner. He said something about 'an interlock being up' and this prevents the system from working. It's a design feature in the part of the system which was replaced a year and a half ago, which is why we haven't encountered this before. It shuts down the unit once a year and the only way to get it going again is to get a registered technician in to reset it. It is a measure introduced to force people to have their burners serviced annually to improve energy efficiency and safety. He said the design feature was implemented to comply with some legislation that was introduced maybe as recently as 2015. The system is designed so that you need a specific set of equipment to reset it, and some of the newer models even require a computer to re-code it or some such.

That's the story as I heard it. Now, this guy was perfectly polite, but as far as I could see, he didn't service anything.

Does anyone know if this legislation actually exists?

Is this design feature actually a thing?

Because, if I'm to take him at his word, the unit will switch off again next year, and I'll have to shell out the same again for him to come in and spend five minutes resetting a code. If it's an actual thing, then that makes parting with the money marginally more bearable, although it still does beg the question of why he didn't actually do anything to clean the unit.

TPM

The fact that he said it is to force people to get boilers serviced then reset it and walked away with out servicing it saws enough do you not think

scaulfield18

Well, that's a separate issue which I will follow up on in time. Right now I'm simply trying to establish if there is any substance to this story of his. If you know anything about the design of these burners or the legislation, I would be interested to hear.

Donal55

How old is the burner? If its pre 2015 surely this interlock device wouldn't be on it as sipposedly the act was only introduced in 2015.

And if it is pre 2015 and there is an interlock device on it then it looks like your plumber fitted it on your burner 18 months ago when he did the first service.

Wearb

Plain and simple codswallop. Maybe keep your eyes open for next service guy.

scaulfield18

The burner could be 10 years old or more. If I'm to believe his story, this feature was designed into the new replacement part he fitted during repairs last time in 2015. If you know the unit, it is the part on the front under the red box panel. We didn't get oil this winter, so if it does indeed trip in every year, we would have saw it some time around September, but since there was no oil in it then, the issue only arose several weeks ago when we did get oil again and the heating wouldn't work.

I want some independent corroboration of his story. It sounds fishy. If the legislation isn't actually in place, surely I can get the system modified so that this feature is deactivated? That was I can save some money on unnecessary call outs in future. Because him calling out and resetting the unit, but not actually servicing it (I don't know what they do - cleaning the flus, replacing worn components, whatever) is a total waste of time and a racket. It doesn't seem right that he can charge so much for so very little work. If the legislation is in place, and if all he is going to do is reset the unit and not service it, surely there must be someone else out there who would do it for much much less So that's why I want to know if the legislation is in place, and if the design feature is real. It will inform my future decisions.

Donal55

scaulfield18 wrote: »

The burner could be 10 years old or more. If I'm to believe his story, this feature was designed into the new replacement part he fitted during repairs last time in 2015. If you know the unit, it is the part on the front under the red box panel. We didn't get oil this winter, so if it does indeed trip in every year, we would have saw it some time around September, but since there was no oil in it then, the issue only arose several weeks ago when we did get oil again and the heating wouldn't work.

I want some independent corroboration of his story. It sounds fishy. If the legislation isn't actually in place, surely I can get the system modified so that this feature is deactivated? That was I can save some money on unnecessary call outs in future. Because him calling out and resetting the unit, but not actually servicing it (I don't know what they do - cleaning the flus, replacing worn components, whatever) is a total waste of time and a racket. It doesn't seem right that he can charge so much for so very little work. If the legislation is in place, and if all he is going to do is reset the unit and not service it, surely there must be someone else out there who would do it for much much less So that's why I want to know if the legislation is in place, and if the design feature is real. It will inform my future decisions.

Ring or google on either the Dept of Environment or the HSA websites.
I've never heard of it before to be honest.

Robbie.G

scaulfield18 wrote: »

The burner could be 10 years old or more. If I'm to believe his story, this feature was designed into the new replacement part he fitted during repairs last time in 2015. If you know the unit, it is the part on the front under the red box panel. We didn't get oil this winter, so if it does indeed trip in every year, we would have saw it some time around September, but since there was no oil in it then, the issue only arose several weeks ago when we did get oil again and the heating wouldn't work.

I want some independent corroboration of his story. It sounds fishy. If the legislation isn't actually in place, surely I can get the system modified so that this feature is deactivated? That was I can save some money on unnecessary call outs in future. Because him calling out and resetting the unit, but not actually servicing it (I don't know what they do - cleaning the flus, replacing worn components, whatever) is a total waste of time and a racket. It doesn't seem right that he can charge so much for so very little work. If the legislation is in place, and if all he is going to do is reset the unit and not service it, surely there must be someone else out there who would do it for much much less So that's why I want to know if the legislation is in place, and if the design feature is real. It will inform my future decisions.

Pure and total bullsh***
Get him to clarify what this actual component is
And to break down his cost
I chargethe same amount if I'm in s house 5 mins or 55 mins

jimf

imho this must be a wind up

Tom44

Common sence is invaluable for most situations in life.

OP
If this is not a windup (which happens here)
Then it's a load of ballcocks your been fed.

In my 20+ years of oil servicing I have never come across what your been fed.
Or told.

I'm not the only oil service engineer here.

Time to try somebody reliable.
Ask boiler manafactures or oil company for recommendations.
Ring tec support at boiler manafactures with your story, wait 3 miniutes while they recover.

Dtp1979

Out of curiosity, can you post a pic of this reset device or where it's located

Wearb

Sounds to me like a digital CB

TPM

just thinking about this, its probably a time clock with the service reminder & lock out function.
they give a service due reminder for a while, then prevent the heating coming on untill they are reset.

Wearb

TPM wrote: »

just thinking about this, its probably a time clock with the service reminder & lock out function.
they give a service due reminder for a while, then prevent the heating coming on untill they are reset.

Never saw one.

Expensive reset

scaulfield18

Hi Tom44,

No, I assure you it isn't a wind up. I would be interested in finding someone more reliable for future servicing of the boiling. TPM says it might actually be a plausible story and Wearb agrees, but even if it is, and the system is going to shut down this time next year, surely I can get someone who would do a more thorough job than what I received for my money? I paid €136. I have no idea what a reasonable price is though. Lack of experience in these matters. With a reputable technician, could I get an actual servicing for that price? Or at least a thorough examination of the system to ensure that all is functioning adequately and servicing is not required?

Like I was saying, him simply resetting it defeats the purpose of the design feature (assuming it actually exists), and just earns him an easy pay, and a guarantee of return business next year and the year after, even all functioning perfectly fine. It's

DTP1979, I can take a picture of the full part he replaced, yeah.

TPM

can you post the model of time clock you have fitted?

TPM

Wearb wrote: »

Never saw one. (

I havent had he pleasure of seeing one either, but had a sales man trying to push them a while back."guaranteed service or call out" i think is how he was trying to sell them

scaulfield18

I can't seem to upload or link the photos because I'm a new user, but he installed a Riello 40 G3B Type 437T1 unit, which he claims has this timer built into it.

Dtp1979

scaulfield18 wrote: »

I can't seem to upload or link the photos because I'm a new user, but he installed a Riello 40 G3B Type 437T1 unit, which he claims has this timer built into it.

What's the boiler

Dtp1979

scaulfield18 wrote: »

I can't seem to upload or link the photos because I'm a new user, but he installed a Riello 40 G3B Type 437T1 unit, which he claims has this timer built into it.

You need 50 posts before you can post pics. Go post 50 full stops on other forums. Wearb, don't ban me for saying that .

scaulfield18

The boiler itself is a Firebird 90 and the Riello 40 sits mounted at the base of the front of the unit.

TPM

scaulfield18 wrote: »

I can't seem to upload or link the photos because I'm a new user, but he installed a Riello 40 G3B Type 437T1 unit, which he claims has this timer built into it.

do you have a timeclock, thermostat that you use to control the heating

scaulfield18

You're talking about the timer to set when the heating kicks on and off, yes? Yeah, do indeed. It's an APT Type N0:IMM24 model timeclock. He didn't touch that though, when he did the repairs 18 months ago. He claims the timer and lock out function is built into the replacement Riello 40 I think.

TPM

first i have heard of a service lockout built into a riello g3b. i am running out of ideas now.
can you post photo on a different site and give us the link

scaulfield18

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/vw2x8suolqvoek8/AABbHbckRLz4AzIz9uxXnhVpa?dl=0

Tom44

I do a lot of oil boilers a year, X 25 years. (Full time job)
Yours is the strangest story yet ?


At this stage,
Common sense says get a second opinion.
Not off boards where you cannot post photos yet.

But off my previous recommendations.

scaulfield18

Ah, the link worked that time for whatever reason.

Yeah, it might be one for the manufacturers after all.

But say it is true. Say I'm stuck with this lock out feature, what's a reasonable price for a technician to come out, reset the unit and actually do a once over of the system to ensure everything is in working order. I understand if some components are worn, then obviously it will cost more for the price of components and labour involved in installation. But assuming a general servicing, how much is a reasonable price to pay for that? I understand maybe you don't want to list your own personal rates here if that is inappropriate, but what is the general going price for something like this?

JamesM

scaulfield18 wrote: »

I can't seem to upload or link the photos because I'm a new user, but he installed a Riello 40 G3B Type 437T1 unit, which he claims has this timer built into it.

Has anyone heard of a G3 with a timer built into it ?
Scaulfield, will you take one with the cover off the burner.

Overlapped posts - edited
Jim

GSBellew

@ the OP, you say there was no oil till recently? Presume you had run out so?
Was there a red light on at the front of the burner?

My guess is the burner was airlocked, the lockout light was on and you were
charged €136 to bleed the burner and press the lockout button to get it going again.

JamesM

That's a very standard looking G3 - I'd bet a bottle of Tom's firewater that there is nothing unusual under that cover.
Jim

TPM

burner made in 2014.
afaik no service interval lockout on that unless fitted by third party

did you get a invoice for the callout?

what area are you in

JamesM

GSBellew wrote: »

@ the OP, you say there was no oil till recently? Presume you had run out so?
Was there a red light on at the front of the burner?

My guess is the burner was airlocked, the lockout light was on and you were
charged €136 to bleed the burner and press the lockout button to get it going again.

OP, you did not make it clear that the boiler had not worked since you ran out of oil last year. If this is the case, I certainly agree with the above - and your "service engineer" is having you on.
Jim

scaulfield18

Hi James and GS - no it wasn't airlocked. I had already bled it prior to him arriving to eliminate that possibility. I was with him the entire time he was there (all 5 mins), and since I know how to bleed it, I would have noticed. But again, I had already bled it prior to this so that wasn't the issue.

I've also taken photos of the Riello with the cover off if they are any help. They're in that dropbox folder

TPM - I'm in Kilmainham. I did get an invoice, but all it says is 'Diagnose oil fired boiler and burner' on it. No useful information as to what he did.

TPM

thats a standard g3b
he was spinning a yarn to justify his fee,
can you remember exactly what he did to get the burner running again?
i take it you pressed the red button a few times when you bled it?

too far for me to take a look at

Orion

I've a much older Firebird (c. 20 years - don't judge me I'm replacing it this year). Last month heating was on and the neighbours called in to say there was black smoke billowing out of the external chimney. Utility room where boiler is was also full of smoke. Shut it down and got someone out to service it. Parts were all ok but there was a lot of gunk in it (I'm not a plumber so excuse the non-tech terms) and cleaned out the boiler/burner and gave it a good servicing. Total cost - €120. Two men were there for about an hour sorting it out. So €136 for resetting a switch does seem excessive to me.

Tom44

scaulfield18 wrote: »

Ah, the link worked that time for whatever reason.

Yeah, it might be one for the manufacturers after all.

But say it is true. Say I'm stuck with this lock out feature, what's a reasonable price for a technician to come out, reset the unit and actually do a once over of the system to ensure everything is in working order. I understand if some components are worn, then obviously it will cost more for the price of components and labour involved in installation. But assuming a general servicing, how much is a reasonable price to pay for that? I understand maybe you don't want to list your own personal rates here if that is inappropriate, but what is the general going price for something like this?

Personal rates
I'm probably the most expensive in my area, but therefore one of the cheapest.
Figure that one out.
Honestly counts, your been taken for a gallop.


As previously recommend
Contact boiler manufacturers or oil companies.

JamesM

Agree with TPM, nothing unusual under that cover. Maybe high limit locked out on the thermostat, or a drop in power, an insect on the electrodes, a little bit of carbon - anything - made the burner lockout. But - Not a timer or lockout feature.
Jim

JamesM

One more question before I get to bed - You said you had already bled it - did you actually have the burner running since you ran out of oil last year and bled it, whenever that was. Was the burner running up to the time you had to call this guy out recently ?
Jim

K.Flyer

scaulfield18 wrote: »

Ah, the link worked that time for whatever reason.

Yeah, it might be one for the manufacturers after all.

But say it is true. Say I'm stuck with this lock out feature, what's a reasonable price for a technician to come out, reset the unit and actually do a once over of the system to ensure everything is in working order. I understand if some components are worn, then obviously it will cost more for the price of components and labour involved in installation. But assuming a general servicing, how much is a reasonable price to pay for that? I understand maybe you don't want to list your own personal rates here if that is inappropriate, but what is the general going price for something like this?

Service would be approx 90 euro max, inc vat inc new nozzle, inc flue gas analysis more if other parts were required.
130 was a bit rich for a reset and no tools taken out of the tool bag.
Some Gas boilers do have service reminder clocks on them, where a symbol will flash on the front panel to remind to get it serviced, but it does not shut the boiler down.
Would love to get a closer look at it.

Tom44

K.Flyer wrote: »

Service would be approx 90 euro max, inc vat inc new nozzle, inc flue gas analysis more if other parts were required.
130 was a bit rich for a reset and no tools taken out of the tool bag.
Some Gas boilers do have service reminder clocks on them, where a symbol will flash on the front panel to remind to get it serviced, but it does not shut the boiler down.
Would love to get a closer look at it.

€90 for an oil service
Only a gas sniffer would say that !

Oil needs professionalism

K.Flyer

Tom44 wrote: »

€90 for an oil service
Only a gas sniffer would say that !

Oil needs professionalism

Whether its Oil or Gas servicing, the customer deserves professionalism.
When it comes to Oil though, still too many cowboys out there and little to no regulation.

Jack the Stripper

Keep the cowboys riding horses, customers need to wake up and hire professionals.

scaulfield18

Hi TPM - yes, I pressed the red button a few times to try and get it going after bleeding it a week prior to him arriving. It didn't work. I don't know what he did, but I know the valve to bleed it is on the left side of the Riello, whereas as far as I could see he was working primarily on the other side.

JamesM - we ran out of oil last March. I bled the unit two weeks ago. So no, it wasn't running between last March and this Feb, when I got the oil topped up and realised it wasn't working. I say I bled it, but it was actually a friend who did so. He had some experience with them. Watching him jogged my memory of the previous time it was bled. It's relatively straightforward as far as I understand. Just open the valve, let the air out until the oil starts to flow, and then close it up again.

I don't know... perhaps my friend didn't bleed it correctly, and the engineer redid it and I missed it. I'm satisfied he made up some garbage explanation to justify his high fee. Hopefully he was indeed talking rubbish and it doesn't cut out again next year. In the event that it does cut out, next time I will get someone I'm confident is reputable, someone who will actually service the unit and charge a reasonable price for doing so.

Thanks for the responses lads. I may well call up the manufacturer just to satisfy my curiosity.

TPM

There is no question about it that burner DOES NOT have a service interval lockout
He could have fitted something to lock it out but I doubt it.
Behaviour like this needs to be reported but that comes back to no regulation of oil here.

I would recommend you get your annual services done and take it from there

JamesM

If the burner hadn't run for a year, it is likely that the oil pump had stuck - a little bit of corrosion will do that. All he had to do was flick the fan on the right hand side with a screwdriver (or even a key) and that would free it. If the oil pump had already been bled, the burner would then start up with a push of the button.
Jim.

TPM

That's fair enough and if he wanted to charge 200 for that it's up to him but to make up some story about legislation and regulations is disgraceful
It's a case for name and shame if there ever was

JamesM

TPM wrote: »

That's fair enough and if he wanted to charge 200 for that it's up to him but to make up some story about legislation and regulations is disgraceful
It's a case for name and shame if there ever was

I agree completely.
But, I like to try to figure out what actually happened .
Jim

Wearb

While we would all like to name and shame, we also know that we can't do that here.

I too would like to know exactly what happened, I think JamesM probably got close to it.

TPM

Wearb wrote: »

While we would all like to name and shame, we also know that we can't do that here.

I too would like to know exactly what happened, I think JamesM probably got close to it.

There benefits and restrictions of an open forum.

Regardless of naming behaviour like that will always catch up with people.
What James m said and the op saying it was yhe fan sized that seems bed to be the area that received attention does all seem to add up.

jimf

JamesM wrote: »

If the burner hadn't run for a year, it is likely that the oil pump had stuck - a little bit of corrosion will do that. All he had to do was flick the fan on the right hand side with a screwdriver (or even a key) and that would free it. If the oil pump had already been bled, the burner would then start up with a push of the button.
Jim.

most likely nailed it here james