Raised Liver Enzymes in Blood test / RAW Diet

cocker5

Just wondering if anyone had any experience with the following:

My nearly 12 year old cocker has been diagnosed with a grade 2 heart murmur with an enlarged heart – waiting to see if the cardiologist recommends medicating for this at this time..

He also has hip dysplasia and arthritis in his hind legs – which he is now receiving an anti-inflammatory for.. this is one that isn’t processed via his liver. He is also on yumove advance and salmon oil.

While having full bloods the Vet discovered his liver enzymes are raised his ALT is 165 and his GG is also slightly raised - otherwise his bloods are perfect. He is getting retested Saturday week and if still the same then a liver scan.
So after some googling (I know this can be a bad thing but still) there have been links to feeding the RAW food diet and increase in liver enzymes (he is currently being fed RAW since early 2016).

Apparently the uncooked food / RAW diet can have a certain level of bacteria in it which can cause damage to some liver cells… now this could be nonsense…
I also asked my vet and while she sells RC and isn’t very wise nutritionally (IMO) she suggested we should NEVER feed dogs raw chicken… as this meat is totally over framed and full of bacteria especially Irish chickens…

So now I don’t know what to do?? Take him off the RAW diet and put him back on TOTW? Then have his bloods re-tested in a few weeks?

AHHHHH I thought by feeding him RAW I was doing the best by him and now this 

Anyone any experience / thoughts???

TIA

tk123

Bailey's on raw 5 years now and his liver is fine. It did show up as enlarged on a scan when they were checking him all over after the jaw tumour so I have it tested with his thyroid bloods every 6 months and it's been fine every time. I gave hm milk thistle for a good while after all the pain killers and antibiotics from that operation to help cleanse the liver and all good.

cocker5

tk123 wrote: »

Bailey's on raw 5 years now and his liver is fine. It did show up as enlarged on a scan when they were checking him all over after the jaw tumour so I have it tested with his thyroid bloods every 6 months and it's been fine every time. I gave hm milk thistle for a good while after all the pain killers and antibiotics from that operation to help cleanse the liver and all good.

Thanks for your reply I really appreciate it.

do you mind if i ask what milk thistle you gave him? as in strength etc? I might try this for a few weeks... and see

tk123

I use this one - http://www.bulkpowders.ie/milk-thistle-extract-powder.html

It's kind of messy so I pour it into one of the small takeaway tubs that you'd get sauces in

cocker5

Thank you!! how much did you give him? did you scoop it directly into his food?

Sorry for all the questions.

tk123

I'd normally do one scoop in each meal. I ran out and got out of the habit of giving it to him(!)

cocker5

Thanks! Ill try this and see how it goes X

muddypaws

How much chicken do you feed TK123? I know its a cheap meat for dogs, but anecdotally it does appear that a lot of dogs have an intolerance of one form or other to it. A dog that I'm working with, has been here since May, has behavioural issues, was on a chicken based kibble, and I fed raw last summer, with a lot of chicken in it, he was really hyper, didn't like any touching. However, since I've switched him to a lamb based kibble, he is a much quieter dog and loves his cuddles. Now, this may be because he is feeling safer here, but I put him back on the chicken food for a while, and his behaviour changed back, so he is on lamb from here on in.

tk123

I don't feed chicken at all - I stick to leaner meats instead.

I was actually advised not to feed it because it's supposedly a pro-Inflammatory - isn't that interesting with your guy not liking to be touched when he was on it?

Bells21

We've had to eliminate chicken from our boys diet too. Has allergies to grass anyway but when he was eating chicken he had himself torn to pieces. I also then realised that some of the completes I was feeding used chicken offal instead of offal from a single protein source.

muddypaws

tk123 wrote: »

isn't that interesting with your guy not liking to be touched when he was on it?

Yeah, and if his lead got caught around him at all, he would freak out completely, so I think maybe his skin was sore?

Springwell

Much more likely he has raised liver enzymes due to congestion from the murmur/cardiac enlargement!

cocker5

Springwell wrote: »

Much more likely he has raised liver enzymes due to congestion from the murmur/cardiac enlargement!

From the enlargement ? He's only grade 2 heart murmur and not on medication.. anything I can do for him to help lower these naturally? Going to try milk thistle above.

Springwell

Yes, any enlargement is an indication that the heart is under pressure to some extent. Feed wise good nutrition is all you can really do - don't give too many fatty foods which put more pressure on the liver.

cocker5

Just thought i'd give a little follow up..



Was speaking with his cardiologist again yesterday, he had done the scan / ultra sound of his heart a week or so ago.
Well it turns out my vet (who did the X-rays) who told me his heart was enlarged was incorrect???

Apparently cockers tend to have very slightly larger hearts anyway and while yes he has a grade 2 murmur he does not have an enlarged heart, cardiologist viewed the x-rays and is very happy!!

Also with my vet when I mentioned supplements like milk thistle for his liver, or CQ10 and taurine for his heart was dead against it… the cardiologist thinks they are a good idea and may keep his murmur under control for a good bit longer.
He also said his liver enzymes could have been up do to a number of factors and to leave him and retest normal bloods in 4 weeks.. my vet wanted him in this weekend for all sorts of tests.. so there you go doctors differ etc!

€1,500 later and thank god he only has a murmur etc… please god it stays like this for as long as possible….

Thanks for all your advice on this.

tk123

Glad to hear he's ok but what a PITA having differing opinions like that! I'm the same with Bailey atm and it's very frustrating.

cocker5

tk123 wrote: »

Glad to hear he's ok but what a PITA having differing opinions like that! I'm the same with Bailey atm and it's very frustrating.

Hope bailey is ok...

its frustrating and not to mention stressful... I had Cody virtually "written off" last week, stressing myself to death and he can sense the stress from me.. now all is ok (apart from the Murmur) he is much calmer and happier (as am I)!

just goes to show you a second opinion is important for serious matters!

aonb

Phew! What a relief - poor you, but great to get a good (better) result! Hope Cody has MANY happy healthy years ahead of him

cocker5

aonb wrote: »

Phew! What a relief - poor you, but great to get a good (better) result! Hope Cody has MANY happy healthy years ahead of him

Thanks so much xx

cocker5

Hi All,

Sorry for the constant questions but anyone use Loxicom (anti inflammatory) long term on their dogs? Just making sure it wont damage him long term.

My guy has hip dysplasia and has been prescribed this stuff.

He is also on Milk Thistle For his liver, salmon oil, Taurine and L-Carnitine for his heart valves and CQ10 enzymes also for his heart.. all the recommended dosages etc.

He is back tomorrow night for follow up blood tests to see if his liver enzymes have dropped as they were a little raised last time.

Also i know I sound like i have Munchausen syndrome or something but his hearing in the last few weeks has gotten quiet bad - so will be getting this checked out also to rule out wax build up / infection.

You know what he was grand until a recent check up in February, in great form running around not a bother on him and now i feel hes nearly on deaths doors its bloody awful every time he looks at me funny, or drinks a little more than normal im in panic mode.

tk123

Loxicom = metacam. Bailey was misdiagnosed with arthritis and I was told he should basically go on it full time.. When I questioned the vet about side effects she said she has dogs on it years and no probs - they just monitor their bloods. I wasn't sure if I believed her but after reading tons and tons of forums etc there seems to be more cases of it NOT causing problems than it causing them. Its made me wonder if the bad stories have been hyped up a bit? Has your guy had cartrophen - that promotes repair and has less side effects than meta/loxi. It's 4 injections initially - one a week but some dogs maintain really well on one a month after the initial course.

aonb

cocker5 wrote: »

Hi All,

Sorry for the constant questions but anyone use Loxicom (anti inflammatory) long term on their dogs? Just making sure it wont damage him long term.

My guy has hip dysplasia and has been prescribed this stuff.

He is also on Milk Thistle For his liver, salmon oil, Taurine and L-Carnitine for his heart valves and CQ10 enzymes also for his heart.. all the recommended dosages etc.

He is back tomorrow night for follow up blood tests to see if his liver enzymes have dropped as they were a little raised last time.

Also i know I sound like i have Munchausen syndrome or something but his hearing in the last few weeks has gotten quiet bad - so will be getting this checked out also to rule out wax build up / infection.

You know what he was grand until a recent check up in February, in great form running around not a bother on him and now i feel hes nearly on deaths doors its bloody awful every time he looks at me funny, or drinks a little more than normal im in panic mode.

Yikes, poor you.
I was like this when my old guy was diagnosed with liver/kidney problems.
But since your guy was only diagnosed in Feb, you are prob still reeling from the shock. Specially since hes only 11? It does get easier when you see that he is still fine, and in good form, and not at deaths door. Get your head straight, and try to relax/not worry - easier said than done I know. This is the problem with our beloved pets ageing and getting old - we are so invested in them that it breaks our hearts when we see them unwell or going downhill. The time will come inevitably so its up to you to accept that, but try to relax in the meantime, and enjoy your happy little dog for now. Your worry/stress/anxiety will translate to him too. I think when my guy was diagnosed I freaked about the meds and side-effects etc, but there was no choice - he needed meds to slow/help/manage his symptoms, worrying about the longterm effects of the drugs on him was not an option. Quality time with him was more important, and for his pain free possibly shorter life, that was what all we could do.

My younger guy has had injection #2 of Cartophen, with 2 more to go, and hopefully then just 1/month if its having any effect. Having said that he is on 3 legs today 8-( So I dont know if it is helping. Hes also on Onsior - non-steriod anti-inflammatory. Its so frustrating, its getting to the stage where if he does anything strenuous Im telling him "you have a sore leg" as if that has any effect and I have to slow him down :rolleyes: Jeez, the poor dog! He went bonkers today with a friends bitch that he loves, and I nearly had a fit - my friend was laughing at me!!!! Dogs not impressed with the curtailment of the fun... now hes on 3 legs again - see!!!

cocker5

tk123 wrote: »

Loxicom = metacam. Bailey was misdiagnosed with arthritis and I was told he should basically go on it full time.. When I questioned the vet about side effects she said she has dogs on it years and no probs - they just monitor their bloods. I wasn't sure if I believed her but after reading tons and tons of forums etc there seems to be more cases of it NOT causing problems than it causing them. Its made me wonder if the bad stories have been hyped up a bit? Has your guy had cartrophen - that promotes repair and has less side effects than meta/loxi. It's 4 injections initially - one a week but some dogs maintain really well on one a month after the initial course.

Thanks for your reply TK123, no one has mentioned the injections,
They may not have suggested them as poor Cody gets very upset in the vet ….. shakes, vomits, urinates etc. with fear (poor pet).

It’s very difficult to get blood from him too it totally freaks him out, they have to bring him out the back and pin him down…

I’m really hoping and praying his bloods come back ok tomorrow night so he can have respite from the vet for a few months.


but i will enquire tomorrow night about them tomorrow night for sure. i will try anything at this stage to give him a good quality of life.

tk123

cocker5 wrote: »

Thanks for your reply TK123, no one has mentioned the injections,
They may not have suggested them as poor Cody gets very upset in the vet ….. shakes, vomits, urinates etc. with fear (poor pet).

I've read on other forums that some vets will allow owners to administer it themselves after showing them how so that might be an option for you? One thing for Bailey's bloods - I point blank refuse to let them take him in the back because he gets too stressed going in with them - much to their annoyance sometimes lol They'll bring a nurse to assist so I hold him (he hides his face and looks away ), the nurse holds his paw/leg and the vet draws the blood. Last time he had blood drawn our old vet was off sick and he charmed them all lol - delighted he wasn't seeing her lol :rolleyes: He's had them taken at the jugular a few times and he was extremely calm and relaxed - I've had needles in my neck and I was NOT that calm lol!

cocker5

Thanks aonb, yeah i know your dead right hes getting on and all i can do is mind him and look after / out for him as best i can, i suppose being totally selfish i dont want him to get old.

I am trying my best to give him the best quality of life i can without stressing him out too much.

TK123 - yes that's a good idea ill def look into the injections and the possibility of doing them myself etc

Cheers Guys!

cocker5

Guys

Just wanted to give I suppose a final update - did more bloods today.. his GG back to normal range and his ALT dropped by 30 points so now only a little over normal range - thanks tk123 for the milk thistle advice it's def helping that's for sure! He'll be on this for life!

On his heart murmur - he has been graded by a cardiologist as grade 2 (so mild enough) but today vet could barely hear it, had to listen for ages...said it was a lot quieter than last time - said she would grade it a 1 .. anyway I'll go with the specialists grading. But still.. it won't go away I know that bit if I can keep it from advancing as long as I can I will try , his on 3 different heart supplements so that must be helping too.. so YAAH on both counts ðŸ˜

Then she checked his ears ... said everything looked fine / clean he may be slightly loosing his hearing - happens in cockers who are aging from time to time but so far he's fine! The little ****e has selective hearing!!!

On the loxicom she said it's filtered through the kidneys so easy on the liver.. will get his kidneys checked every few months.. she said in 6 months she will look at injections or moving him to a new tablets orix (or something) easier on the kidneys again etc.

So after 6 weeks of stress for poor Cody.. numerous vet appointments, bloods.. stress and tears from me and €1,600 later (I'll get €800 back from Allianz etc) the bloody brat is fine 💕💕

Thank god - long may it last! Phew!!!

Thank you all for your advice it's really appreciated!

aonb

oh thats just great news! you probably take better care of your dogs health than you do your own!

Bringing my pest to vet tomorrow for injection #3, hes hopping on 3 legs again today

cocker5

Ahh the poor pet I hope he's ok xx

DBB

cocker5 wrote: »

Ahh the poor pet I hope he's ok xx

Glad to read your good news Cocker5!