Cyclist wants to turn right from cycle lane.

shootermacg

Hi all
Just wondering what the story is with turning right? I approach my turn off, which goes from a single lane to two lanes with lights. I want to get in the right lane to turn, but am currently in the cycle lane? I've been making the hand signal to turn right for about 5 to ten seconds, traffic is still whizzing past me (50Km/h limit).

Does a car have to give way in this instance? Or do I need to get off my bike and take the pedestrian crossing at the lights? I realize what the safe answer is, but what's the legal answer?

07Lapierre

Sounds like you need to be more assertive and move out of the bike lane into the left lane. Legally, indicating does not give you right of way.

I find if you indicate that you want to turn right, cars wont allow you unless you begin to actually move to the right. If you don't they'll leave you there.

amcalester

07Lapierre wrote: »

Sounds like you need to be more assertive and move out of the bike lane into the left lane. Legally, indicating does not give you right of way.

I find if you indicate that you want to turn right, cars wont allow you unless you begin to actually move to the right. If you don't they'll leave you there.

Pretty much this.

At one particular point on my commute I have to cross from the cycle lane across two lanes to get to the turn right lane so I indicate right, look over my shoulder and start moving right. Once I start moving to the right cars slow down to let me over.

nordicb

I usually move out to the right lane indicating a good time beforehand and if it is safe to do, or nobody has to do extreme braking.

If not feeling safe, I use other means of crossing, hardly worth the risk!

Imnotthehulk

nordicb wrote: »

If not feeling safe, I use other means of crossing, hardly worth the risk!

This is where I'm at too. There are a few places on my journey home where I have to move from the cycle lane into a different one, and there are days when I don't feel comfortable doing it at all, at which point I get off the bike and use the pedestrian crossing to get across.

shootermacg

07Lapierre wrote: »

Legally, indicating does not give you right of way.

Surely Being ahead of traffic and indicating does in fact give you the right of way on a single lane, regardless of being in a cycle lane?

Wishbone Ash

shootermacg wrote: »

Surely Being ahead of traffic and indicating does in fact give you the right of way on a single lane, regardless of being in a cycle lane?

He means that indicating does not give you the right to move across to the next lane it is merely a display of intention.

(It's something that I see many female cyclists doing - sticking out their arm and moving around an obstacle such as a parked car without checking that it is safe to move out. Their logic being that they 'indicated' so all is well).

shootermacg

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

He means that indicating does not give you the right to move across to the next lane it is merely a display of intention.

(It's something that I see many female cyclists doing - sticking out their arm and moving around an obstacle such as a parked car without checking that it is safe to move out. Their logic being that they 'indicated' so all is well).

At this stage it's still a single lane.

07Lapierre

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

(It's something that I see many female cyclists doing - sticking out their arm and moving around an obstacle such as a parked car without checking that it is safe to move out. Their logic being that they 'indicated' so all is well).

It's not unique to female cyclists...

07Lapierre

shootermacg wrote: »

Surely Being ahead of traffic and indicating does in fact give you the right of way on a single lane, regardless of being in a cycle lane?

No. You seem to be forgetting about the traffic coming towards you. You still have to wait until it is safe before turning right. When is it safe? When there's a gap in the oncoming traffic or the oncoming traffic is stopped etc.

Wishbone Ash

07Lapierre wrote: »

It's not unique to female cyclists...

Indeed, but it my experience, pro-rata, it's much more prevalent among female cyclists.

07Lapierre

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Indeed, but it my experience, pro-rata, it's much more prevalent among female cyclists.

I tend to notice female cyclists more also!

John_Rambo

I find signalling and looking back at the traffic helps. Usually a driver will slow down and flash or give a little beep. Eye contact works.

Some don’t though. I did it once and a woman mouthed F**** O** and put the boot down!

eeeee

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

(It's something that I see many female cyclists doing - sticking out their arm and moving around an obstacle such as a parked car without checking that it is safe to move out. Their logic being that they 'indicated' so all is well).

Male cyclists do that in front of me every single day going through town.
It's neither unique to, nor more prevalent in female or male cyclists. There is absolutely no gender bias in my experience.

In response to the OP, I look for ages, aaages before the turn in case there's a handy break in traffic, then, again ages before, look,hand out and begin turning. If it's a fast road it helps to be going a good clip too in my experience.

07Lapierre

John_Rambo wrote: »

I find signalling and looking back at the traffic helps. Usually a driver will slow down and flash or give a little beep. Eye contact works.

When that happens i usually give a "thumbs up" as I move right.

ED E

Here's a rough example of a layout similar to what you're asking about(I think). Important to think ahead and leave the cycle lane when not going straight or left.

John_Rambo

07Lapierre wrote: »

When that happens i usually give a "thumbs up" as I move right.

Ah yeah... goes without saying!

shootermacg

In my case, I always indicate and give myself about 20, 30 metres to move out. Unfortunately its up hill, so I'll be lucky to be doing 20 /30kph.

I always look for the gap, but in a lot of cases the car while not being that much faster relatively, unless breaking the limit, just will not slow down. I can't rely on them seeing me, I've had cars accelerate to get past me, even though they are 20 meters away when I started indicating.

So again, I'm not looking for advice on how to ride a bike, I'm looking for advice on the legality of the situation.

Am I considered to be legally ahead of a car, while being in a cycle lane? I'm not talking about sudden erratic turns in front of cars, I'm talking about cars having to give way of a turning bike that is at least 10, 20 metres ahead of them.

Annie get your Run

John_Rambo wrote: »

I find signalling and looking back at the traffic helps. Usually a driver will slow down and flash or give a little beep. Eye contact works.

Some don’t though. I did it once and a woman mouthed F**** O** and put the boot down!

Fair play to your flexibility!!! I'd be off the bike if I tried to make eye contact with a driver to my right as I'm moving across a lane :eek:. I do as nee said too and start looking a good bit in advance, I'll usually give a thumbs up before I move across and it usually has the desired effect as a 'thanks for letting me through'.

For the OP, I can't answer to the legal position but to be honest I very much doubt it. As others have said indication is just an intent to move over, as you're moving into a lane that already has vehicles in it I doubt there's a right of way just because you're in front - I'd imagine the same goes for cars moving from one lane to another too.

shootermacg

Annie get your Run wrote: »

Fair play to your flexibility!!! I'd be off the bike if I tried to make eye contact with a driver to my right as I'm moving across a lane :eek:. I do as nee said too and start looking a good bit in advance, I'll usually give a thumbs up before I move across and it usually has the desired effect as a 'thanks for letting me through'.

For the OP, I can't answer to the legal position but to be honest I very much doubt it. As others have said indication is just an intent to move over, as you're moving into a lane that already has vehicles in it I doubt there's a right of way just because you're in front - I'd imagine the same goes for cars moving from one lane to another too.

Still in a single lane at this stage and I'm guessing that if I move out and a car blows me off the road, the car is in the wrong, like in pretty much any rear-end situation, unless I'm told different.

07Lapierre

shootermacg wrote: »

In my case, I always indicate and give myself about 20, 30 metres to move out. Unfortunately its up hill, so I'll be lucky to be doing 20 /30kph.

I always look for the gap, but in a lot of cases the car while not being that much faster relatively, unless breaking the limit, just will not slow down. I can't rely on them seeing me, I've had cars accelerate to get past me, even though they are 20 meters away when I started indicating.

So again, I'm not looking for advice on how to ride a bike, I'm looking for advice on the legality of the situation.

Am I considered to be legally ahead of a car, while being in a cycle lane? I'm not talking about sudden erratic turns in front of cars, I'm talking about cars having to give way of a turning bike that is at least 10, 20 metres ahead of them.

No your only ahead of other traffic (cyclists) in the cycle lane. To turn right, you must move into the left "Driving"Lane. you can only move into the Driving lane "when safe to do so". At least, that's my understanding of the legalities. As others have suggested..indicating, making eye contact, all make it "safe to do so".

average_runner

shootermacg wrote: »

Still in a single lane at this stage and I'm guessing that if I move out and a car blows me off the road, the car is in the wrong, like in pretty much any rear-end situation, unless I'm told different.

But you can only move lane when safe to do it, same for a car. A car can't just indicate and move in, they have to wait till its safe.

I will always let the cyclists out if I know they want to move lane

Thud

my favourite one of these:

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3159123,-6.2049108,3a,75y,306.98h,80.29t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6gT1sXHlem_d3yg3uGegAg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

nordicb

The person changing lanes has no right of way to change lanes if the lane he/she is going to is occupied, regardless whether it is a roundabout or a normal road. A lot of it boils down to the feel of the road and the traffic flow, some manage to integrate well into a new lane and others just bluntly wedge in.

Parchment

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

(It's something that I see many female cyclists doing - sticking out their arm and moving around an obstacle such as a parked car without checking that it is safe to move out. Their logic being that they 'indicated' so all is well).

Did i actually just see this....?

robyntmorton

^ I'm hoping I didn't see it either!

Chuchote

amcalester wrote: »

so I indicate right, look over my shoulder and start moving right.

I do it the other way round: quick glance over the shoulder, if there's room, signal and move right.

OleRodrigo

As Nee says, the problem in this scenario is that it often goes hand in hand with fast moving traffic. An example in Dublin would be Patrick St in either direction - getting in lane to take a right into the Coombe or the other direction for turning towards Dame St - almost always dealing with speeding traffic. In fact towards Dame St is even harder as you have to move with fast traffic, execute an eyeball and signal whilst maintaining speed on a short ramp to ChristChurch.

Another one is Fairview in the direction of city center. Moving from the bus lane or cycle path across to the turn for Ballybough can be tricky for the very same reason, although usually not as fast as Patrick St.

John_Rambo

OleRodrigo wrote: »

As Nee says, the problem in this scenario is that it often goes hand in hand with fast moving traffic. An example in Dublin would be Patrick St in either direction - getting in lane to take a right into the Coombe or the other direction for turning towards Dame St - almost always dealing with speeding traffic. In fact towards Dame St is even harder as you have to move with fast traffic, execute an eyeball and signal whilst maintaining speed on a short ramp to ChristChurch.

Another one is Fairview in the direction of city center. Moving from the bus lane or cycle path across to the turn for Ballybough can be tricky for the very same reason, although usually not as fast as Patrick St.

Funny you mention that stretch. The AA proved itself to be completely out of touch when they lobbied for Fairview strands speed limit to be risen up to 80kph!!

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/dublin-city-council-rejects-aa-s-speed-limit-increase-proposals-1.2878103

odyssey06

As a driver you really should be anticipating that a cyclist coming up to a parked car is going to come out into the driving lane to get around it and act accordingly ... I would always try to yield but yeah, if I'm not the closest car, and I see a cyclist maneuvering out without looking behind and I wince and say a little prayer (ps I also back off the next car...)

Lumen

Parchment wrote: »

Did i actually just see this....?

Please explain.

amcalester

Chuchote wrote: »

I do it the other way round: quick glance over the shoulder, if there's room, signal and move right.

Actually I glance, signal and move right too. Was paying more attention to it on my way home tonight.

Unknown Soldier

shootermacg wrote: »

Hi all
Just wondering what the story is with turning right? I approach my turn off, which goes from a single lane to two lanes with lights. I want to get in the right lane to turn, but am currently in the cycle lane? I've been making the hand signal to turn right for about 5 to ten seconds, traffic is still whizzing past me (50Km/h limit).

Does a car have to give way in this instance? Or do I need to get off my bike and take the pedestrian crossing at the lights? I realize what the safe answer is, but what's the legal answer?

I'd go with safe, personally. But for a lot of turns across traffic it is better to start (as people have said) your manoeuvre early, like 500 meters from the junction, if that's what it takes.

I take a right from the Long Mile Road onto the Kylemore Road, which take me over three lanes of traffic.

Sometimes I just pull into the left, wait, and bide my time to get across. Most times I sprint like a mofo when I have "timed" a gap I see!

endacl

You need to increase your speed to 50 to match the traffic OP. If you can't, then the answer is standard and obvious. New bike!

worded

I think this exact model (with string) of torch is excellent for cycling. Highly portable.

If you wear it on your right wrist It's very effective when indicating right

On normal cycling you can point it in front of you and make adjustments to where you want to see easily.

Also good to flash at a car Comming towards you that you suspect isn't seeing you. Fab product / easy to carry and very bright

https://goo.gl/images/yyn549

worded

I highly recomend this torch for cycling and occasional use

If you have long hair - remove from the back while holdong the torch at the front to avoid getting hair tangled. The string is the best one not the strap ones IMHO

https://goo.gl/images/yyn549

Chuchote

Others will inevitably disagree, but I'd like to mention that if traffic is really heavy and fast, I'll stop at lights, dismount and walk across when the lights change. Better a live coward than a dead hero.

shootermacg

Chuchote wrote: »

Others will inevitably disagree, but I'd like to mention that if traffic is really heavy and fast, I'll stop at lights, dismount and walk across when the lights change. Better a live coward than a dead hero.

Traffic is not heavy at this spot, but plenty of speeding going on.

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.299543,-6.2332328,3a,60y,212.53h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1spdynHUZkG9myvQ6HMMSXPQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Parchment

Lumen wrote: »

Please explain.

How can you not see the issue? What if he said "i see many protestant cyclists doing...." I see many black cyclists doing...".

Would you take issue then?

Chuchote

Parchment wrote: »

How can you not see the issue? What if he said "i see many protestant cyclists doing...." I see many black cyclists doing...".

Would you take issue then?

Damn left-footers, clipped in on only one side!

shootermacg

Chuchote wrote: »

Damn left-footers, clipped in on only one side!

And it's not the right side!

Chuchote

At least in the old days they were horse Protestants…

Getting back to the issue, my advice would be to judge the traffic carefully; when it's light and slow, take the lane early and hook around, but when it's fast or heavy, stop at the lights, wheel bike across both sets of lights and get back on.

Lumen

Parchment wrote: »

How can you not see the issue? What if he said "i see many protestant cyclists doing...." I see many black cyclists doing...".

Would you take issue then?

It would be helpful if you would spell out the issue so I don't have to guess.

I haven't read anything about differential risks to protestant/black cyclists, but there are statistically significant differences between male and female cyclists in terms of KSI rates and the types of vehicles involved in accidents.

Jumping up and down about sexism the moment someone suggests that there are behaviour differences is detrimental to gaining any insight in this area.

07Lapierre

Chuchote wrote: »

Others will inevitably disagree, but I'd like to mention that if traffic is really heavy and fast, I'll stop at lights, dismount and walk across when the lights change. Better a live coward than a dead hero.

You make it sound like cars are "Robots" and wont show some consideration towards a cyclists trying to turn right! the reality is the vast majority of motorists will slow to allow a cyclist to complete a right hand turn.

Turing right is not that difficult...

arybvtcw0eolkf

shootermacg wrote: »

Surely Being ahead of traffic and indicating does in fact give you the right of way on a single lane, regardless of being in a cycle lane?

No, its only an indication of your intent to move. It doesn't give you right of way, and in traffic moving at 50kph I'd be exercising a lot of caution.

I have something similar on my commute to work. I cycle down the Malahide Rd into Fairview and take the cycle path at the park, but I not to go right at Edge's hardware store. Some cyclists move over to the extreme right lane after St. Josephs school, but I'd rather cycle to the pedestrian lights, dismount and move over safely.

Its a bit more time consuming but feck it, its a lot safer than assuming traffic will allow me right of way.

shootermacg

Cyrus Limited Clipboard wrote: »

No, its only an indication of your intent to move. It doesn't give you right of way, and in traffic moving at 50kph I'd be exercising a lot of caution.

I have something similar on my commute to work. I cycle down the Malahide Rd into Fairview and take the cycle path at the park, but I not to go right at Edge's hardware store. Some cyclists move over to the extreme right lane after St. Josephs school, but I'd rather cycle to the pedestrian lights, dismount and move over safely.

Its a bit more time consuming but feck it, its a lot safer than assuming traffic will allow me right of way.

Gotcha, so keep on assuming drivers are idiots and be happy for the rare times you are proved wrong!

Chuchote

shootermacg wrote: »

Gotcha, so keep on assuming drivers are idiots and be happy for the rare times you are proved wrong!

Or keep on assuming that a lot of times people are distracted (often because they're idiots and are looking at smartphones while driving, of course), or are drunk or drugged, or are in a sad, desperate dream of how in God's name they're going to pay the mortgage, or whether the cancer scan is going to be clear, or whether the kid will emigrate to Australia and never come home… You have to cycle, or drive, under the assumption that everyone else on the road may not see you, and may not have as fast reactions as you, and may be in another world.

worded

Cars are built with blind spots so they can withstand crashes when the car rolls over onto its roof.

Cyclist are def more vulerable and car drivers say after impact ...
SMIDSY sorry mate I didn't see you. See www.smidsy.com for more info.


I recently moved my tax/nct/ins cert to the middle bottom of the wind
Screen to give me a max view of other road users. Pls consider doing the same

Wishbone Ash

worded wrote: »

....I recently moved my tax/nct/ins cert to the middle bottom of the wind
Screen to give me a max view of other road users. Pls consider doing the same

It's legally required to be on the bottom of the nearside. (Just sayin'!)

John_Rambo

Any good driver can usually predict what a cyclist intentions are from body position, glances behind, direction taken etc... For instance, if a cyclist stops pedaling, looks behind it usually means they want to take the lane or move to the lane to the right. Time to ease off, see what the story is, give some room.

A lot of drivers chose to ignore or are simply too stupid to see what's going on in front of them.

shootermacg

Driver's need a thought experiment. They should try imagining themselves in a nissan leaf on the M50 that can barely make the speed limit, surrounded by speeding trucks and trailers, that blatantly ignore their indicators and drive across them whenever they feel like turning.

When they complain about it, the lorry drivers mention the fact that some other small cars were seen breaking a red light and that should even it out.

Maybe then the insanity might become apparent, then again....maybe not.