Creed, sucklers and the IFA

Bass Reeves

Reading both the farming papers this week I was surprised to see that Joe Healy was still pursuing the pipe dream(I hope) of a suckler payment.I cannot understand where IFA are coming from on this. Joe even stated that it can be financed from pillar 1&2 with some national all funding. Creed see more competition in the beef sector as a better answer and seems the most open agriculture minster to the live export in a long time.

IFA is spouting about the income crisis in livestock but a suckler payment will hold or increase numbers up and will not help suckler farmers. This will exasperate the income crisis in the livestock sector. What Joe and the IFA propose is to give the processor and the retailer's some of our BPS and DA payments.

TITANIUM.

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Reading both the farming papers this week I was surprised to see that Joe Healy was still pursuing the pipe dream(I hope) of a suckler payment.I cannot understand where IFA are coming from on this. Joe even stated that it can be financed from pillar 1&2 with some national all funding. Creed see more competition in the beef sector as a better answer and seems the most open agriculture minster to the live export in a long time.

IFA is spouting about the income crisis in livestock but a suckler payment will hold or increase numbers up and will not help suckler farmers. This will exasperate the income crisis in the livestock sector. What Joe and the IFA propose is to give the processor and the retailer's some of our BPS and DA payments.

I suppose they would look even worse if they just held there hands up and said "we were wrong it was a stupid idea that we didn't think it through".
I would like to see them attacking the problem for a more open minded point of view. Lads need to be making more on there actual cattle not the cheque in the post that will arrive anyway regardless of farming practices.
They really need to look at innovative ways to address the supply and demand issue. I can't see the demand side increasing significantly in a sustainable way so maybe they should concentrate on the supply. Drastically reduce the number of dairy cattle coming to beef through export etc and reduce the suckler herd also.
If the suckler game is a negative sum game as we're constantly told then we might as well loose less money on less cattle with less worry and work.

rangler1

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Reading both the farming papers this week I was surprised to see that Joe Healy was still pursuing the pipe dream(I hope) of a suckler payment.I cannot understand where IFA are coming from on this. Joe even stated that it can be financed from pillar 1&2 with some national all funding. Creed see more competition in the beef sector as a better answer and seems the most open agriculture minster to the live export in a long time.

IFA is spouting about the income crisis in livestock but a suckler payment will hold or increase numbers up and will not help suckler farmers. This will exasperate the income crisis in the livestock sector. What Joe and the IFA propose is to give the processor and the retailer's some of our BPS and DA payments.

http://www.thatsfarming.com/videos/video-suckler-subsidy-yay.

IFA have to represent what the farmers want, the gist of that video is that farmers need it.
Your conspiracy theories won't buy the groceries, just like the teacher walloping the child, ICSA telling famers that it's for their own good isn't cutting any ice with any farmers I'm talking too.

TITANIUM.

rangler1 wrote: »

http://www.thatsfarming.com/videos/video-suckler-subsidy-yay.

IFA have to represent what the farmers want, the gist of that video is that farmers need it.
Your conspiracy theories won't buy the groceries, just like the teacher walloping the child, ICSA telling famers that it's for their own good isn't cutting any ice with any farmers I'm talking too.

Forget about the conspiracy theories and what you think other farmers feel about it.
Tell us what you think about it,

rangler1

TITANIUM. wrote: »

Forget about the conspiracy theories and what you think other farmers feel about it.
Tell us what you think about it,

Do the same as the sheep subsidy, keep numbers to a quota, it won't float in the EU if there's even a hint of an increase in production anyway.
But it'll have to be new money, taking the cream off the top of everyones' BSPis a nonrunner,
suckler farmers would be one of the highest entitlements, subsidising them from other sectors shouldn't even be considered, I could imagine proposing it to sheep or tillage farmers at the moment

patsy_mccabe

I'd worry that a suckler payment would lead to every tangler in the country running all types of hungry screws just to get the payment.

Cavanjack

Any man that was suckling through the reference years should probably have a good sfp as it is. If he was bringing his stock to finish at the time his sfp should be even better.
Giving the likes of him another €200 per cow (if he is still suckling) would make the whole system even more unfair. Creed is right, it would cause war.

Irish Beef

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

I'd worry that a suckler payment would lead to every tangler in the country running all types of hungry screws just to get the payment.

You have a point there Patsy, but it could be combined with the genomics scheme and just bump up the payment and this would prevent a whole load of scrap being produced and a cap could be put on it.

Bass Reeves

TBH I think this proposal was a knee jerk reaction to the issue that IFA have with dwindling membership. I think once again they have not looked at either what is good for farmers and what is coming down the road. As I have stated already any subsidy for sucklers will only go straight into Larry's pocket's. Other drystock will suffer a double whammy a bit on there farm payment and reduced price for stock .

Dairy numbers will solve themselves as market forces will get rid of first cross hybrid calves and poorer quality Holsteins. The way to encourage exports is for farmers to pay less than what exporters can afford to pay. As from reading between the lines nitrates derogations may be coming to an end as EU tighten up on them. This will limit dairy expansion there is more than one way to put a quota in place.

The other issue that IFA are not looking at is the 2019 CAP. From what I am hearing greening will be flat rated across all land. The next envoirment schemes will concentrate on encouraging farmers not to reclaim wetlands or poorer land, as these are carbon sinks and not to be clearing scrub on land. It seem that these payments for WBC's and meadow's are doing little for the envoirment. The department's foray over the last two years against claimable area's has done more envoirment damage by encouraging clearing of land and reclaimation. There was talks about a wetlands payment 3-4 years ago but it was shelved in the attempt to reduce claimable area's along the west coast and in the attempt to provide a GLAS payment for farmers on better land. In 2019 this may all change and the INHFA may well have a bigger input into the 2019 review. I wonder is this the IFA trying to reclaim this ground.

I am a bit astounded by the grace for sucklers in the hierarchy of the IFA, Teagasc, and the farming papers. Sucklers have always being cyclical and reached there heydays during the premium years in the late nineties. If MII think they are so necessary let them pay a bit more for beef. The truth is they know that beef is beef whether it is from a fresians, a charley or a whitehead and they cannot leave a door ajar that might encourage another competitor in. If the Italian market returns to it heydays of the early noughties when bull beef was at a premium then suckler bred cattle will be in demand again ( mind you I remember 18 months old AA bullocks being killed as bulls off grass in November as I had fed them a good bit of Maize meal in 2004) so it is all relative

Who2

Wouldn't it be great if the department would give free travel to all dairy bred cattle to be exported, I reckon that would create a more stable market.

Birdnuts

Taking to lads at the Mart recently down west - most of them are very disappointed with Healy and this daft suckler proposal being cheerleaded by the factories was the latest insult.

ganmo

Who2 wrote: »

Wouldn't it be great if the department would give free travel to all dairy bred cattle to be exported, I reckon that would create a more stable market.

like the oap bus pass?

Who2

ganmo wrote: »

like the oap bus pass?

Yeh only it's one way

Bass Reeves

Maybe it is the suckler cow that needs the bus pass.

Willfarman

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Maybe it is the suckler cow that needs the bus pass.

Could just as easy be the dairy cow.. Who knows where milk price will be in a few months time...

Bass Reeves

Willfarman wrote: »

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Maybe it is the suckler cow that needs the bus pass.

Could just as easy be the dairy cow.. Who knows where milk price will be in a few months time...

The same could be said for beef. I would not worry about the milking boys. Talking to a farmer that is milking all year around he averaged 36c/L for January. I was kind of surprised. But he said that cows ( autumn Calver's)at end of lactation have very high solids. This lad would have well bred middle of the road cows.

Saw another interesting tibit a few weeks ago. A farmer that after quota went had expanded from 80 to 100 cows and the only extra fixed cost he had was to add two units to the milking parlour made 10k more profit out of milk with the low milk price in 2016. It would be hard going to make 10k more out of beef with prices dropping. In a way it is all relative but you have to understand that milk is inherently profitable.

On the counter side the Derrypatrick herd had 25% empties this spring. If you were full time farming sucklers how would that effect your profitability. The Derrypatrick study is looking at what you need for to make a full time living out of sucklers. Irish dairy farmers have come through the last recession fairly unscathed compared to high cost operations in the UK, France and Germany. With a strong weanling/store price relative to beef prices our sucklers farmers are hoping a subsidy will solve there profitability issue.

Willfarman

have you the parlour ordered bass? Would you not encourage the young lad to get under a few black and whites?

I disagree about dairy farmers coming away from the last price depression unscathed. We only see the tip of the ice berg regarding their debt and borrowings. And yes price increased in recent months but winter milk costs 3 times as much to produce..

Bass Reeves

Young lad has got through college Will has a job at present going travelling next autumn. Will come back in a few years maybe. Much better off part time farming with a job especially with only 60-70 acres. Most of the lads that are in problem with debt milking more cows than what one labour unit allows on rented land. Lots of lads that only expanded like the lad I mentioned above are doing ok. IMG mentioned on the same article that that lads on rented land with 300 cows were in a different ball game. Was on about labour issues.

Willfarman

Is your friend managing 100 cows on his own?

dh1985

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Willfarman wrote: »

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Maybe it is the suckler cow that needs the bus pass.

Could just as easy be the dairy cow.. Who knows where milk price will be in a few months time...

The same could be said for beef. I would not worry about the milking boys. Talking to a farmer that is milking all year around he averaged 36c/L for January. I was kind of surprised. But he said that cows ( autumn Calver's)at end of lactation have very high solids. This lad would have well bred middle of the road cows.

Saw another interesting tibit a few weeks ago. A farmer that after quota went had expanded from 80 to 100 cows and the only extra fixed cost he had was to add two units to the milking parlour made 10k more profit out of milk with the low milk price in 2016. It would be hard going to make 10k more out of beef with prices dropping. In a way it is all relative but you have to understand that milk is inherently profitable.

On the counter side the Derrypatrick herd had 25% empties this spring. If you were full time farming sucklers how would that effect your profitability. The Derrypatrick study is looking at what you need for to make a full time living out of sucklers. Irish dairy farmers have come through the last recession fairly unscathed compared to high cost operations in the UK, France and Germany. With a strong weanling/store price relative to beef prices our sucklers farmers are hoping a subsidy will solve there profitability issue.

I think you need to recheck the incalf % of derrypatrick as it's not accurate.

TITANIUM.

dh1985 wrote: »

I think you need to recheck the incalf % of derrypatrick as it's not accurate.

Darren Carty must be telling us fibs so!

TITANIUM.

TITANIUM. wrote: »

Darren Carty must be telling us fibs so!

Maybe this time!

TITANIUM.

TITANIUM. wrote: »

Darren Carty must be telling us fibs so!

I'll try to load att again.

TITANIUM.

TITANIUM. wrote: »

Darren Carty must be telling us fibs so!

I was attempting to load his article on page 6 of the journal. Yes it's 25% empty. Due to disease outbreak they say lepto and bvd. I'd love to see there vacianation plan.

dh1985

TITANIUM. wrote: »

TITANIUM. wrote: »

Darren Carty must be telling us fibs so!

I was attempting to load his article on page 6 of the journal. Yes it's 25% empty. Due to disease outbreak they say lepto and bvd. I'd love to see there vacianation plan.

They had 6% empty after breeding. That's some turnaround. I would also like to see that vaccinaction plan. There surely vaccinating for bvd and lepto.

blue5000

dh1985 wrote: »

They had 6% empty after breeding. That's some turnaround. I would also like to see that vaccinaction plan. There surely vaccinating for bvd and lepto.

Teagasc Athenry don't vaccinate for bvd. They might review that now.

The calving rate for sucklers in Ireland is 0.79, if that increased to 0.9 or 0.95 we'd be a long way to the €200 per cow.

Because IFA went around telling farmers how bad the genomics scheme was it was under applied for, and surplus money went for dairy farmers. Farmers have short memories.

dh1985

blue5000 wrote: »

dh1985 wrote: »

They had 6% empty after breeding. That's some turnaround. I would also like to see that vaccinaction plan. There surely vaccinating for bvd and lepto.

Teagasc Athenry don't vaccinate for bvd. They might review that now.

The calving rate for sucklers in Ireland is 0.79, if that increased to 0.9 or 0.95 we'd be a long way to the €200 per cow.

Because IFA went around telling farmers how bad the genomics scheme was it was under applied for, and surplus money went for dairy farmers. Farmers have short memories.

Surprised newford not vaccinating for bvd especially with such an open herd.
If the 0.79 average calving rate for sucklers was 0.95 then we might need the 200e even more by the sounds of it.

Bass Reeves

Willfarman wrote: »

Is your friend managing 100 cows on his own?

No the 80 to 100 cow reference was an article I saw in the FI two weeks ago. Lad I was talking about has a herd going autumn and spring calving is something similar. He was milking about 45ish cows and is tied around the parlour with only about 35ish acre around the parlour. He is doing a bit of contracting mainly hedgecutting, a bit of slurry even has a turner rake though I have never seen him make hay himself.

He had a little beef operation but ditched it quota was always catching him. He was with a co-op where it made stupid money. He was doubly caught with a split farm and a a bit rented. He bit the bullet the year before last he had ran a Friesian bull with the cows and had a good few heifers coming on when he had a load of empty cows so he milked them through the winter and kept the heifers instead of selling them. He now has over 40 spring calving cows and nearly 30 autumn calving.

Now as he says he never minds milking, he is on his 50's and has child in college. He outwinters the dry cows( even though he probably should not) and he milks off the same number of cubicles. No extra costs except 20-30 minutes extra in the parlour in the spring. It's case of horses for courses

Bass Reeves

dh1985 wrote: »

I think you need to recheck the incalf % of derrypatrick as it's not accurate.

You are right yes it was unlucky, they were incalf but slipped due to a disease outbreak.. But can you imagine the effect on a full-time suckler farmer that this would have.

tractorporn

I see Creed has opened the national reserve and young farmer's scheme for 2017 but to fund it they are implementing a linear cut to everyone's BPS entitlements. That should put any notion of a suckler scheme, either a payment or reduction scheme, off the table as no organisation will agree to a scheme which cuts everyone's BPS.

rangler1

tractorporn wrote: »

I see Creed has opened the national reserve and young farmer's scheme for 2017 but to fund it they are implementing a linear cut to everyone's BPS entitlements. That should put any notion of a suckler scheme, either a payment or reduction scheme, off the table as no organisation will agree to a scheme which cuts everyone's BPS.

The shame is that most of those entitled to those schemes have very little to do with farming and getting a good salary away from farming........maybe not good but better than most farmers get

ganmo

rangler1 wrote: »

The shame is that most of those entitled to those schemes have very little to do with farming and getting a good salary away from farming........maybe not good but better than most farmers get

how else would you encourage younger ppl to take over the land? or rather the elder generation to give up the land

Bass Reeves

rangler1 wrote: »

The shame is that most of those entitled to those schemes have very little to do with farming and getting a good salary away from farming........maybe not good but better than most farmers get

I think we have to get away from external income and so called good salary's from a livestock farming point of view. If we look at even the best beef prices in the EU ( the UK) how sustainable is drystock farming . At present only sheep are viable on 100 ish acres and that is even questionable. What amount of land is necessary for 100+ sucklers and will extra labour be needed at certain times of year. Renting land and drystockfarming is not the answer to income issue. Even milk is heading towards a 100 acre land block minimum. We are unlikely to see viable drystock landbanks in our lifetimes.

So those that wish to farm smaller amounts of land have little choice but to farm and work. Part time farming was there since we first farmed. Our ancestors when they farmed first were hunter gatherers as well as farmers. In relation to sucklers would you need 250- 400 acre to future proof the operation especially if he was outside this mythical 10% serious operators that Teagasc belove.

You have to remember the government have an agenda here as well there are huge numbers employed adding value to agri meat produce. We cannot produce beef and lamb from full-time farmers only. I think lads have to get this full-time mindset about farming out of there heads.

rangler1

ganmo wrote: »

how else would you encourage younger ppl to take over the land? or rather the elder generation to give up the land

No problem with those that are genuine farmers....how many are genuine though

MF290

rangler1 wrote: »

No problem with those that are genuine farmers....how many are genuine though

What do you mean by genuine? not just farming grants?

rangler1

MF290 wrote: »

What do you mean by genuine? not just farming grants?

Not even farming, stick their name down in a partnership.......plenty of them drew €3000 in the past three mths to blow in 'coppers' :rolleyes:
If you can't beat them join them, I gave 40 acres to an auctioneer this morning for leasing, it seems entitlements are a disadvantage now unless you get someone thats expanding

tractorporn

rangler1 wrote:

Not even farming, stick their name down in a partnership.......plenty of them drew €3000 in the past three mths to blow in 'coppers' If you can't beat them join them, I gave 40 acres to an auctioneer this morning for leasing, it seems entitlements are a disadvantage now unless you get someone thats expanding

A lot of those lads are getting caught out on the inspection. We had an inspection for the young farmer's scheme in Dec arrived unannounced and asked a good few sticky questions that if you weren't working on the farm you wouldn't be able to answer. They will look to take back all money paid if they think you're not actively involved.

BTW I'd take that land rangler only for its too far away!

MF290

rangler1 wrote: »

Not even farming, stick their name down in a partnership.......plenty of them drew €3000 in the past three mths to blow in 'coppers' :rolleyes:
If you can't beat them join them, I gave 40 acres to an auctioneer this morning for leasing, it seems entitlements are a disadvantage now unless you get someone thats expanding

what's this 3k from? young farmers scheme? Would it be ok if I spent the money in ryan's rather than coppers?
It's difficult for young people who actually want to dabble in a bit of farming. If I were to get a herd number for a few calves I would end up ineligible for the young farmers scheme when I want to go at it properly in a few years...
Is there much demand for the land? think you mentioned there were a good few dairy farmers looking for land up your side

Bass Reeves

A few interesting things associated with this one directly and one indirectly. Creed has reduced the vet inspections charges on calves going for live export. This was 4.8/head down to 1.2. it seems that about 270 calves goes on a truck and this is a saving of 970/ load. Creed must be congratulated on this. I see that some exporters are working directly with mart and buying calves in the yard with the mart doing the paperwork and I imagine gauranteing payment. Hopefully we will see larger numbers exported this year compared to the last three to four years.

The other is to see the battle ground developing over the ANC review. While both the INHFA and IFA both want an expansion in the overall budget for it there shared views end there. IFA want the status quo to remain but the INHFA want the review scientific based with front loaded payments on the the first 20 HA.

This is really the first battle in the 2019 review. Greening will be a big issue there as well as INHFA move for a flat rated greening payment address all farmland. I noticed today that the IFJ published the payment that Teagasc and consultants acting as facilitators are getting for discussion groups. I was shocked to see itt was 500 euro/ farmer. While the 750 we get has to cover a herd health plan this year. It seems there is a bit of an exit out of the scheme. What is really annoying is Teagasc insist on you being a Teagasc member to enter the scheme. It looks like pillar 2 funding is being syphoned off big time to fund Teagasc when you take GLAS into account.

Willfarman

Bass Reeves wrote: »

A few interesting things associated with this one directly and one indirectly. Creed has reduced the vet inspections charges on calves going for live export. This was 4.8/head down to 1.2. it seems that about 270 calves goes on a truck and this is a saving of 970/ load. Creed must be congratulated on this. I see that some exporters are working directly with mart and buying calves in the yard with the mart doing the paperwork and I imagine gauranteing payment. Hopefully we will see larger numbers exported this year compared to the last three to four years.

This was very welcome and a very practical sensible measure. Well done minister Creed. A minister for farming at last!

benjydagg

tractorporn wrote: »

I see Creed has opened the national reserve and young farmer's scheme for 2017 but to fund it they are implementing a linear cut to everyone's BPS entitlements. That should put any notion of a suckler scheme, either a payment or reduction scheme, off the table as no organisation will agree to a scheme which cuts everyone's BPS.

Go to your Agfood account.
Look up documents for 2016.
May 31st is the DEFINITIVE STATEMENT OF ENTITLEMENTS.


In my opinion there cannot be any further "Linear cuts".

That's just my humble opinion.
Why don't the dairy lads give their beef calves to ex sucker farmers as a gift. Then maybe the game would be fair....